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singinerd54
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Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 1817 Location: Missouri
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:16 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
It helps when the officials hand you a cheap technical 6 pt play. |
Why did South Carolina get the ball (back)? Rice was called for the foul, then called for the technical. Shouldn't it have been UCLA's ball after those four free throws were shot?
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012 Posts: 5424
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:16 pm ::: |
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A nice defensive second half for SCar. They don't look like a dead solid lock to win the title though.
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GlennMacGrady
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Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8264 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:17 pm ::: |
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Never thought SCar would lose. I've seen this plot too many times: SCar starts slow, can't score much, the other team gets ahead for two or three quarters, but then SCar's defense, rebounding and occasional 3pt outbursts pull ahead for a solid win.
What a boring last 30 minutes for about 5 minutes of game time. It was literally a constant parade of whistles, foul shots and time outs . . . changing nothing. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:24 pm ::: |
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singinerd54 wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
It helps when the officials hand you a cheap technical 6 pt play. |
Why did South Carolina get the ball (back)? Rice was called for the foul, then called for the technical. Shouldn't it have been UCLA's ball after those four free throws were shot? |
I was asking myself the same thing. It was a dead ball technical. Thought that didn't change the possession?
By the way, i thought UCLA was getting rattled and probably would have lost anyhow, but that technical stole any chance they had and was really excessive in my view given Rice's rather minor display of frustration.
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singinerd54
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Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 1817 Location: Missouri
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:28 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Never thought SCar would lose. I've seen this plot too many times: SCar starts slow, can't score much, the other team gets ahead for two or three quarters, but then SCar's defense, rebounding and occasional 3pt outbursts pull ahead for a solid win. |
I, too, never thought South Carolina would lose, but I saw it more as UCLA started to do the-things-they-were-doing-well-enough-to-get-the-lead not as well, rather than South Carolina's level (on the defensive end or 3pt line) rose. The size and athleticism differential wears down these smaller teams as the game goes by.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:28 pm ::: |
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linkster wrote: |
A nice defensive second half for SCar. They don't look like a dead solid lock to win the title though. |
definitely some vulnerability there.
I got a kick out of Peck talking about the PG situation being up in the air. Remembering the ESPN article earlier in the year saying that they would have a better PG than last year. hmmmm
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:32 pm ::: |
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singinerd54 wrote: |
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Never thought SCar would lose. I've seen this plot too many times: SCar starts slow, can't score much, the other team gets ahead for two or three quarters, but then SCar's defense, rebounding and occasional 3pt outbursts pull ahead for a solid win. |
I, too, never thought South Carolina would lose, but I saw it more as UCLA started to do the-things-they-were-doing-well-enough-to-get-the-lead not as well, rather than South Carolina's level (on the defensive end or 3pt line) rose. The size and athleticism differential wears down these smaller teams as the game goes by. |
Not just smaller, but its best players are freshmen, and that inexperience, not surprisingly, showed in the 4th Q.
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singinerd54
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Joined: 18 Feb 2009 Posts: 1817 Location: Missouri
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Posted: 11/29/22 9:39 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
A nice defensive second half for SCar. They don't look like a dead solid lock to win the title though. |
definitely some vulnerability there. |
Agreed that they're more vulnerable than they "should" be. But I'm curious, outside of a Louisville-playing-Baylor three point barrage, how many teams have a legit chance of beating South Carolina? Stanford, UConn, and ...? Notre Dame? Iowa St if Soares can stay out of foul trouble? Ohio St if South Carolina imploded against the press? Any others come to mind?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:07 pm ::: |
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singinerd54 wrote: |
myrtle wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
A nice defensive second half for SCar. They don't look like a dead solid lock to win the title though. |
definitely some vulnerability there. |
Agreed that they're more vulnerable than they "should" be. But I'm curious, outside of a Louisville-playing-Baylor three point barrage, how many teams have a legit chance of beating South Carolina? Stanford, UConn, and ...? Notre Dame? Iowa St if Soares can stay out of foul trouble? Ohio St if South Carolina imploded against the press? Any others come to mind? |
Virginia Tech? Texas if they come together? Iowa ?
Is UGA legit?
As an ND fan, I have to say I just don't know how good they will turn out to be. Potentially they have the size, the guard play, and the shooting to do it, but they are largely untested so far. Time will tell.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:15 pm ::: |
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singinerd54 wrote: |
myrtle wrote: |
linkster wrote: |
A nice defensive second half for SCar. They don't look like a dead solid lock to win the title though. |
definitely some vulnerability there. |
Agreed that they're more vulnerable than they "should" be. But I'm curious, outside of a Louisville-playing-Baylor three point barrage, how many teams have a legit chance of beating South Carolina? Stanford, UConn, and ...? Notre Dame? Iowa St if Soares can stay out of foul trouble? Ohio St if South Carolina imploded against the press? Any others come to mind? |
If SoCaro shoots 1-14 against any good teams with sufficiently good bigs to semi match up against their size, they could definitely be beaten. If they make enough threes to keep opponents from just clogging up the middle, they are much much tougher to beat. And as always it also depends on how the refs call the game.
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GlennMacGrady
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:16 pm ::: |
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I don't think it's hyperbole to say that SCar's bench could be a top 5 team even if the starters got kidnapped by aliens. Freshman Watkins has AA potential and I expect freshman Cooper to be really good. Super-recruiter Staley has another spectacular class coming in next season, from which Fulwiley should become a crowd-pleasing star.
To beat SCar, a team would have to have a stable of tall, banging, scoring bigs plus at least two solid three-point threats, and a sophisticated offense. Stanford seems to fill that bill the best, and could win a rematch if they don't crumble again under defensive pressure. UConn could get close if they are hot, but I don't think their front court, which is basically just Edwards and Juhasz, is deep enough or could produce enough points, rebounds and defense. |
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undersized_post
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Joined: 01 Mar 2021 Posts: 2864
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:21 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
To beat SCar, a team would have to have a stable of tall, banging, scoring bigs plus at least two solid three-point threats, and a sophisticated offense. |
This is certainly the most *obvious* way for South Carolina to lose. But UCLA has just 1.5 of the 3 things on your list and they still led for 30 minutes or so. Moreover, the two teams who actually beat South Carolina last year didn't check all these boxes either.
South Carolina is absolutely vulnerable to Stanford, UConn, and others.
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Last edited by undersized_post on 11/29/22 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:22 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I don't think it's hyperbole to say that SCar's bench could be a top 5 team even if the starters got kidnapped by aliens. Freshman Watkins has AA potential and I expect freshman Cooper to be really good. Super-recruiter Staley has another spectacular class coming in next season, from which Fulwiley should become a crowd-pleasing star.
To beat SCar, a team would have to have a stable of tall, banging, scoring bigs plus at least two solid three-point threats, and a sophisticated offense. Stanford seems to fill that bill the best, and could win a rematch if they don't crumble again under defensive pressure. UConn could get close if they are hot, but I don't think their front court, which is basically just Edwards and Juhasz, is deep enough or could produce enough points, rebounds and defense. |
edwards v. Boston
Juhasz v Cardosa
Griffin v Amihere
and bring in Patterson to give a few fouls
I don't think that is a total mismatch.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:27 pm ::: |
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And the more times SoCaro wins in these semi-close games, the more invulnerable they will feel...so I think for a team to beat them in the NCAAs the best bet is if SoCaro comes in undefeated.
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GlennMacGrady
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Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8264 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 11/29/22 10:52 pm ::: |
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myrtle wrote: |
GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I don't think it's hyperbole to say that SCar's bench could be a top 5 team even if the starters got kidnapped by aliens. Freshman Watkins has AA potential and I expect freshman Cooper to be really good. Super-recruiter Staley has another spectacular class coming in next season, from which Fulwiley should become a crowd-pleasing star.
To beat SCar, a team would have to have a stable of tall, banging, scoring bigs plus at least two solid three-point threats, and a sophisticated offense. Stanford seems to fill that bill the best, and could win a rematch if they don't crumble again under defensive pressure. UConn could get close if they are hot, but I don't think their front court, which is basically just Edwards and Juhasz, is deep enough or could produce enough points, rebounds and defense. |
edwards v. Boston
Juhasz v Cardosa
Griffin v Amihere
and bring in Patterson to give a few fouls
I don't think that is a total mismatch. |
Well, it's not a total mismatch and, of course, SCar could be beat, as can any team. But that's a paper exercise.
Of the three vs. you list, the SCar player is two inches taller than the UConn player. Plus, Juhasz and Edwards are both starters, and there is no one of their height on the bench to back them up. Cardosa and Amihere are part of the super bench.
Griffin is not a post player, but like Ducharme is a wing who occasionally will go into the paint for a score or putback.
Patterson's fouls are currently a problem to solve, not a skill to feature. I don't yet have a firm view of her, but I don't yet see any shooting touch or even semi-sophisticated post footwork. I think SCar's 6-3 freshman Watkins is likely to be both a better scorer and rebounder than Patterson. I was very impressed by Watkins in high school and All-Star games, and am a big fan of her genetic skills.
I had to look up who beat SCar last season: Missouri and Kentucky by one and two points. So, yes, anything can happen. But I believe SCar is stronger this year than last, even without PG Henderson who killed UConn, and the national odds are still significantly in their favor.
Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 11/29/22 11:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/29/22 11:02 pm ::: |
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The biggest thing is you have to be able to score, lots of ways, from all distances, and preferably all 5 players plus some subs. That narrows it down.
But of the highly ranked teams currently scoring more ppg than SCar, there is LSU, Utah, Ohio St, AZ, ND, IU, UConn, Iowa, Stanford, and maybe FloridaSt?
I haven't seen all of these pla, but I think UConn, ND and Stanford check the diverse offense and multiple scorers boxes
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Howee
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Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15758 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 11/30/22 12:13 am ::: |
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Now, THAT was....fun (?)
Things I was NOT impressed by:
1. SC and their lack of offensive creativity. I have yet to see a game this season where Miss Boston is all that impressive. Of course, everybody near a mic is reminding us all that she is the reigning POY. She reminds me of my beloved Courtney Paris (who quite often had inflated rebounding numbers cuz she missed 3 bunnies in a row and got her own rebounds ) Okay, Aliyah has a slightly better 3pt shot. I just don't see the hype, tho, re: #1 draft pick.
2. The Refs.
3. Ms Peck bragging about how reigning National Champion SC has all their starters back, but one. And they play like this??
4. Neither team's FT %.
5. patsweetpat's lack of commentary here. (where has he gone, anyways?)
Things I was VERY impressed by:
1. Misses Osborne and Rice. Not having seen UCLA play yet this season, I was very impressed - a very dynamic duo, maybe the best in the PAC? I am definitely a Charisma fan now!
2. UCLA's general chemistry. Kudos to Close, I s'pose. Knowing she's got the #1 recruiting class coming in must feel pretty awesome (I hope she's got some posts in there).
3. Dawn's general improvement on her sideline behavior - at least, much better than she displayed at Maples when she came close to losing there. ![Cool](images/smiles/icon_cool.gif)
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004 Posts: 2829 Location: New York
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Posted: 11/30/22 9:19 am ::: |
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Quote: |
1. SC and their lack of offensive creativity. I have yet to see a game this season where Miss Boston is all that impressive. Of course, everybody near a mic is reminding us all that she is the reigning POY. She reminds me of my beloved Courtney Paris (who quite often had inflated rebounding numbers cuz she missed 3 bunnies in a row and got her own rebounds ) Okay, Aliyah has a slightly better 3pt shot. I just don't see the hype, tho, re: #1 draft pick. |
I've said it before and I'll say it again, ESPN is making Boston into some generational talent. I think she might have a hard time adjusting in the W. To me, she is a dominant post in college because she is so much bigger and stronger than everyone else. That won't work in the W as most of the posts are extremely versatile. Can you imagine her trying to guard Parker, Wilson, Jones, Stewie, and Nneka? She isn't quick and she sort of lumbers around the court. Her offense is backing down defenders for layups, put backs, and an occasional 3. If Brink leaves early(which she can), her birthday is 12/31, I would take her #1. To me, she has a higher ceiling as a pro than Boston.
Quote: |
3. Ms Peck bragging about how reigning National Champion SC has all their starters back, but one. And they play like this?? ![Shocked](images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) |
Peck, Lyle, and Carter worship at the altar of Dawn and South Carolina. You can tell that ESPN pumps the most money into the SEC, because they act like Dawn and Boston are responsible for hanging the moon in the sky every night.
And no, I'm not jealous. I DESPISE ESPN.
Quote: |
2. UCLA's general chemistry. Kudos to Close, I s'pose. Knowing she's got the #1 recruiting class coming in must feel pretty awesome (I hope she's got some posts in there).
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I love Close. I'm glad UCLA got Rice.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 11/30/22 1:10 pm ::: |
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Boston did impress me with her drive down the middle between players. That was the most impressive move I've seen from her. She also seems like a nice kid. She's solid and consistent which are also good qualities. I think she will be a WNBA player and I think she's better than Charli Collier, but hard to see the 'generational talent' thing. For one thing, she doesn't seem to ever show athletic activity - like 'lift', or jumping for rebounds or moving quickly into position. Basically she's a pretty static player which doesn't translate all that well into the W. For you UConn fans, I actually think the way Edwards is playing, she might be on her way to becoming better than Boston.
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WNBA 09
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Joined: 26 Jun 2009 Posts: 12606 Location: Dallas , Texas
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Posted: 11/30/22 1:22 pm ::: |
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The only way you beat South Carolina is if you outrebound them. You can make as many 3's as you want but in the 4th QTR the way they pound the glass and get 2nd ,3rd and 4th attempts on goal it's hard to keep a lead on a team like that. Maryland , Stanford and UCLA have all 3 witnessed this to date.
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undersized_post
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Joined: 01 Mar 2021 Posts: 2864
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Posted: 11/30/22 2:05 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
The only way you beat South Carolina is if you outrebound them. You can make as many 3's as you want but in the 4th QTR the way they pound the glass and get 2nd ,3rd and 4th attempts on goal it's hard to keep a lead on a team like that. Maryland , Stanford and UCLA have all 3 witnessed this to date. |
This isn't true. Stanford did outrebound South Carolina 47-41 last week... and they still lost. They also outrebounded South Carolina 40-38 in December 2021... that was also a loss. However, going back to the 2020-2021 Final Four, which was the last time South Carolina outrebounded Stanford, Stanford actually *won* that game.
Now let's look at South Carolina's other two losses from the 2021-2022 season. Rebounding was not the reason they lost those games. South Carolina outrebounded Missouri and Kentucky by 10 and 12, respectively, and still lost.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/30/22 3:19 pm ::: |
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WNBA 09 wrote: |
The only way you beat South Carolina is if you outrebound them. You can make as many 3's as you want but in the 4th QTR the way they pound the glass and get 2nd ,3rd and 4th attempts on goal it's hard to keep a lead on a team like that. Maryland , Stanford and UCLA have all 3 witnessed this to date. |
That's just not what happened yesterday. Rebounding was even between the teams in the 4th Q, and the margin for the game was a totally manageable 48-42 in favor of SC (so the game was tied when that small margin for SC was earned).
The problem wasn't rebounding, it was scoring. UCLA gave up most of its early lead going 0/7 to close the 1st half. Then, with the game tied entering the 4th Q, UCLA didn't make a basket for the first 6 minutes, and only made three shots for the entire quarter, out of 16 shot attempts.
They didn't lose because they got overwhelmed on the boards, they lost because the pressure got to them and they shot 3/16 in the final 10 minutes, and a miserable 32% from the floor for the game.
UCLA ranks a whopping 214th in D1 WBB in field goal percentage.
Look who's #1 - UConn. Look who else is in the top 20 in FG% - Indiana, Stanford, OhSt, LSU, Notre Dame, NCSt, Iowa. And even SCar.
As I said farther up the page, in order to beat SCar, "the biggest thing is you have to be able to score, lots of ways, from all distances, and preferably all 5 players plus some subs."
UCLA was not a good candidate to beat SCar. But they made it interesting for a while.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/30/22 4:19 pm ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
Things I was VERY impressed by:
2. UCLA's general chemistry. Kudos to Close, I s'pose. Knowing she's got the #1 recruiting class coming in must feel pretty awesome (I hope she's got some posts in there).
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Before you go overboard on Close, remember we've seen this act before. She's ALWAYS recruited well, and had the #1 recruiting class in 2014 too (remember Canada, Drummer, Billings, etc.?). That large spectacular group won nothing. Never lost fewer than 8 games, never finished higher than tied for 3rd in the PAC, and made 1 Elite 8.
I think this team probably does have good chemistry and like playing for her. I just have never seen evidence she can teach or gameplan basketball, or be much of a technical gametime coach. And I didn't see any coaching moves either to make adjustments or to calm her team when things went south in the 4th Q. They kept right on doing what what they do. They only made 3 shots in the Q, but they weren't put in positions to take better higher percentage shots by their coach.
I think they like playing for her in part because it's like they're playing four more years of undisciplined AAU travel team ball with their friends. She certainly wouldn't be the first or only popular "players' coach." They exist in every sport.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 11/30/22 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Howee
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Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15758 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 11/30/22 4:23 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
UCLA was not a good candidate to beat SCar. |
Can't agree with that, after watching last night. Who else not named Tara has given Dawn this much of a run for her $ this season? A littler more faith in themselves = a coupla more clutch plays, less ref idiocy....UCLA could have done it.
myrtle wrote: |
For one thing, (Boston) doesn't seem to ever show athletic activity - like 'lift', or jumping for rebounds or moving quickly into position. |
You know who DOES demonstrate lift? MOST SMALLER GUARDS! We've all seen it....the pull-up jumpers from 10', with a 22" vertical jump. Or outrebounding a 6 footer whose feet just never leave the ground. All proof that females CAN do it. I think most Bigs have just become accustomed to raising their arms while standing to get boards or blocks. Watch some of 'em....most hardly leave the floor when rebounding, even amongst equal or taller players.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 11/30/22 4:51 pm ::: |
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Who else has played SCar with an injured Boston?
The things you say UCLA needed are the things they don't have. Poise, discipline, and shooting under game pressure. The refs certainly hurt them, but they had already entered panic mode and were well on their way to a L when that happened (indeed, Rice's display exemplified the panic regardless of the ref's overreaction).
They lost because they took bad shots, were not coached to be put in position for better shots, and went 3/16 when it counted. Having your best players be inexperienced freshmen didn't help. They may be a better team come tourney time.
Oh, and who else has SCar played? Maryland. And what did they do? Shot even worse than UCLA (30% for the game) AND got destroyed 55-32 on the boards. Whether that was a fluke early game by a Maryland team trying to assimilate a bunch of new players or a representation of what they are this year remains to be seen.
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