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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 08/02/17 7:20 pm ::: |
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I am with Art on this one. The drills can expose bad shooting technique, footwork and whether a player can actually lead a pass into the post or to the basket. They may be simple but a lot of players can't do it.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/03/17 10:27 am ::: |
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Nixtreefan wrote: |
I am with Art on this one. The drills can expose bad shooting technique, footwork and whether a player can actually lead a pass into the post or to the basket. They may be simple but a lot of players can't do it. |
But of course you have to correct those mistakes for the drills to do any good, and that's not how USA Basketball works. They just run the drill and move on ...
Again, you need individual, one-on-one attention to the specific needs of a particular player at this level. For 15-year-olds, sure, do mass drills and correct as a group because most of them share flaws. It's not the same for women who've been playing year round, and coached, since they were 10.
And note that you cannot really "drill" passing into the post, as it's very difficult to create realistic situations. You can do two-on-two isos, and maybe bring weakside help low, but the wing has to read lots of things that really only happen during games. For example, if the defender at the top drops down to help on the post, then the ball needs to go to the top, the post needs to seal, and that top passer now needs to read the weakside defense to see if the high-low is there or there's a wide-open wing. And if that wing can't shoot, why get her the ball?
Again, all this is specific stuff, and needs individual coaching and lots of time, which is something USA Basketball doesn't have.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 08/03/17 2:49 pm ::: |
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I don't paticularly think the drills are for development but more of an evaluation tool, some kids are athletic but have poor fundamentals which are exposed in the drills. If those fundamentals are not far enough along then USA does not have the time to develop them.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/03/17 3:57 pm ::: |
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Nixtreefan wrote: |
I don't paticularly think the drills are for development but more of an evaluation tool, some kids are athletic but have poor fundamentals which are exposed in the drills. If those fundamentals are not far enough along then USA does not have the time to develop them. |
My point, as is Sabrina's I suspect, is that by the time we're dealing with the U23 team, that evaluation has been ongoing for five or six years, so the drills serve little purpose.
They are valuable at the U16 and U17 levels, to some degree.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/03/17 4:17 pm ::: |
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I doubt they rolled Geno out and named him "Lead Clinician" unless they intended to teach improved skills and considered it necessary.
Good to hear though that Ionescu has no need of Geno's tutelage.
Watching basically a same age group USAB team lose in the Pan Am Games two years ago, I doubt I would conclude that fundamental skills are beyond need of improvement at this age level.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/03/17 5:41 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
I doubt they rolled Geno out and named him "Lead Clinician" unless they intended to teach improved skills and considered it necessary.
Good to hear though that Ionescu has no need of Geno's tutelage.
Watching basically a same age group USAB team lose in the Pan Am Games two years ago, I doubt I would conclude that fundamental skills are beyond need of improvement at this age level. |
Of course Sabrina needs Geno's tutelage. A couple hours one-on-one would be tremendous.
But doing dribbling drills is hardly the same as getting instruction from Geno, and that's what Sabrina is saying.
Even at the high school level, mass drills are inherently inefficient because some players are much better at some things than others, and you don't want to dumb down the drill to the lowest common denominator, or, at the other hand, do drills that half the team can't.
The players need instruction, preferably one-on-one, not group drills.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/03/17 5:48 pm ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
I doubt they rolled Geno out and named him "Lead Clinician" unless they intended to teach improved skills and considered it necessary.
Good to hear though that Ionescu has no need of Geno's tutelage.
Watching basically a same age group USAB team lose in the Pan Am Games two years ago, I doubt I would conclude that fundamental skills are beyond need of improvement at this age level. |
Of course Sabrina needs Geno's tutelage. A couple hours one-on-one would be tremendous.
But doing dribbling drills is hardly the same as getting instruction from Geno, and that's what Sabrina is saying.
Even at the high school level, mass drills are inherently inefficient because some players are much better at some things than others, and you don't want to dumb down the drill to the lowest common denominator, or, at the other hand, do drills that half the team can't.
The players need instruction, preferably one-on-one, not group drills. |
Well, I think we've beaten this to death, but she didn't say anything remotely close to your characterization. There is nothing in her comment suggesting "I could really use individual skills training but don't find group lessons helpful."
No, she said basically "I don't need no stinking skills practice. Our skills are great already."
“I like being able to go out here and play a little more than just doing some skill stuff, just because everyone at this level is pretty good at the skill stuff."
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 895 Location: NY
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Posted: 08/03/17 7:35 pm ::: |
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who do you think makes the 12 team roster?
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
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Posted: 08/03/17 8:09 pm ::: |
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It is a strange thing that the drills are not all about Ionescu, some of these players have not been in the system and evaluation to see whether players can also follow directions is important to USA, one can assume..
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/03/17 9:39 pm ::: |
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LibFan25 wrote: |
who do you think makes the 12 team roster? |
Without seeing any of the games or practices, I have no idea. The range of players who have scored well and been highlighted in the USAB writeups is pretty broad. All of these players are good. Plus I don't know what USAB is trying to accomplish. Do they want the best team for this tournament? The best players for the future? A range of ages? Best teammates? And there's always politics in USAB selections. (My cynical side says Durr is probably a good bet as is at least one Texas player, for instance.)
Stevens seems to have done well but is not available. Atkins seems to have scored a lot. But some players may have impressed the selectors without lighting up the scoreboard.
I'm betting Canada gets selected. But really I have no confidence that I could predict tomorrow's 12 selected players. I wouldn't rely on who's an All American or the highest rated recruit or the NCAA scoring leader or the like as reliable indicators, though. Although I'll be shocked if Wilson isn't included (although she wasn't a scoring leader it seems.) I expect there will be a lot of room for "discussion" among fans.
Sorry I can't do better than that, but I will be surprised if it's even close to simply being the 12 biggest names.
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LibFan25
Joined: 01 Sep 2012 Posts: 895 Location: NY
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Posted: 08/03/17 10:17 pm ::: |
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ArtBest23 wrote: |
LibFan25 wrote: |
who do you think makes the 12 team roster? |
Without seeing any of the games or practices, I have no idea. The range of players who have scored well and been highlighted in the USAB writeups is pretty broad. All of these players are good. Plus I don't know what USAB is trying to accomplish. Do they want the best team for this tournament? The best players for the future? A range of ages? Best teammates? And there's always politics in USAB selections. (My cynical side says Durr is probably a good bet as is at least one Texas player, for instance.)
Stevens seems to have done well but is not available. Atkins seems to have scored a lot. But some players may have impressed the selectors without lighting up the scoreboard.
I'm betting Canada gets selected. But really I have no confidence that I could predict tomorrow's 12 selected players. I wouldn't rely on who's an All American or the highest rated recruit or the NCAA scoring leader or the like as reliable indicators, though. Although I'll be shocked if Wilson isn't included (although she wasn't a scoring leader it seems.) I expect there will be a lot of room for "discussion" among fans.
Sorry I can't do better than that, but I will be surprised if it's even close to simply being the 12 biggest names. |
God i hope not it better not be about politics, pick the best 12 players that are available to play, the injury factor may play into this as well due to seeing the Penn State guard Page get hurt.
yeah Stevens, Williams, Collier, Katie Lou Samuelson, Greenwell will not be available
Locks: Canada, K. Mitchell, Wilson
the rest of the 9 players i have no idea lol im definitely gonna watch the livestream tomorrow of the Gold and Bronze game to get a good idea of who will be picked
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/03/17 11:05 pm ::: |
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If there's zero politics, I think it would be the first time in USAB history.
And I suspect this has as much to do with the powers-that-be's planning for the future as it does with "picking the best 12 players that are available to play."
Mitchell might be likely but I don't think she's at all a lock. Same with Canada although it looks like she probably played her way on this week.
Gaudy college numbers won't do it. Fitting in to the "system," playing the desired way, is more important.
Listen to the Geno video today. Everybody's good, everybody has the skills, it's about a bunch of vague stuff about the "traits and characteristics" that make the national team "special". In other words, they can pick whomever makes them comfortable. Typical standards of "best players" have little to do with it.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/04/17 9:54 am ::: |
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Along the same lines as the above, Rizzotti, who chairs the selection committee, said:
“Obviously, everybody that is here is really good at basketball, so it’s not just about talent, it’s about how you adapt – to a new coach, to new teammates, to a new offense. Are you willing to be flexible? Because, when you play on a USA Basketball team, you have to be willing to give up your individual self to adapt to the situation. So, we evaluate everything, not just scoring and rebounding, but the intangibles and what they bring to the table in that regard.”
They'll fall back on "intangibles" if asked to explain their choices.
It appears they scrapped the idea of streaming the Bronze medal game, and seem to have deleted the entire schedule from their website. (USAB has one of the worst run websites imaginable). In fact, it's not clear they are even playing a Bronze Medal game.
But they still say the Gold Medal game will be streamed at 11:40am Eastern time.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11232
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Posted: 08/04/17 10:41 am ::: |
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The selection process is a black box, really, and it depends on what that particular committee -- and to some extent, the coach -- is looking for.
Most of the time, it's somewhat irrelevant, as any 12 of the top 20 or so are good enough to win gold. There's a few that seem automatic, and then a bunch that could be chosen depending on what the committee wants.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 08/04/17 11:33 am ::: |
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'intangibles' may seem unfair, but I think it is somewhat legitimate WHEN it comes down to comparing two players who really appear to be comparable skill wise. And I suppose I could even see omitting a player who is highly skilled but who appears to have poisonous effect on team morale. If you're around enough kids, there are some who really stand out in that negative way, but I think they're relatively few among those who would be invited to try out. So, just as in life, kids who are outgoing, friendly, and encouraging to their teammates are more likely to get chosen than those who are withdrawn, morose, and/or always me-first. Where it starts to stink is when a borderline athlete appears to be chosen just because of the school they're attending. From the outside it's hard to see exactly what goes into the selection process so it's pretty hard to fairly judge what is fair or what is not. We all have our favs who we want to make the team and that also clouds objectivity.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 08/04/17 11:39 am ::: |
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It looks like the game is more about guard play. as soon as the ball goes inside or they try to make an entry, it looks like a scrum like 3rd grade bball.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/04/17 11:43 am ::: |
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Looks like there was no bronze medal game but they cannabalized some players off teams 1 and 4, including Russell and Billings. They may be replacing Page, who broke her ankle, and Shepard, who appears to be in workout clothes and not playing. Don't know if she is injured or what.
I'm having trouble with the stream so it's a little difficult for me to follow just what's going on.
Does anyone know the starting lineups for the game?
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 08/04/17 11:50 am ::: |
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The stream is very hurky jerky and the guy's pronunciation issues reminds me of the Tulsa announcer. I didn't see the beginning so don't know who started.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 08/04/17 11:56 am ::: |
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Each side has gone on major runs. It would be interesting to see plus/minus.
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/04/17 12:07 pm ::: |
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USAB's website is worse than the WNBA's, if that's possible. And live streaming isn't rocket science these days. FIBA does a great job streamig games. Why doesnt USAB just use YouTube?
High schools produce better webcasts than this mess today.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008 Posts: 32341
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Posted: 08/04/17 12:13 pm ::: |
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This is the first game I tried to watch so my opinion is limited, but the ones who I noticed here were:
Ionescu (made some very nice passes, and also got some TOs)
Nared (seemed to be a calming presence)
Billings (busy, busy, busy)
K. Brown (some nice moves down low)
Arike
K. Mitchell
Canada
Atkins seemed to shoot a lot and miss a lot. I think it was Thome who moved really well down in the post and once got a nice pass for a layup. There was quite a lot of standing around in the post, but then how much offense can you get in a few days training together?
_________________ For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/04/17 12:43 pm ::: |
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I think Boley and Harper both scored a lot of points. Harper was in "touch ball, shoot ball" mode. Will be interesting to see if that impressed the committee.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
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Posted: 08/04/17 12:49 pm ::: |
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Did Wilson play? She's been pretty much invisible all week. Is she healthy?
Feinberg said they cancelled the Bronze medal game last night.
Then it seems they mixed up the two finalists with several players from 1 and 4.
It was hard to tell who was playing and who wasn't.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8289 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 08/04/17 1:22 pm ::: |
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I don't see the point in inviting several players to the training camp who everyone knows can't play in the U23 tourney because of other commitments. It seems like a complete waste of money for transportation, lodging and food, as well as of coaching resources and coaching time, and finally of playing time for the players who are actual candidates to make the team. |
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