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Aces @ Mystics - 9/17/19
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Who will win this game?
Aces
27%
 27%  [ 11 ]
Mystics
72%
 72%  [ 29 ]
Total Votes : 40

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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 10:30 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PE0KjHDam5o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 1:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am in absolute awe of how Plum has played in the playoffs. I knew she was good, but I never knew she had THIS in her. The command of the game she's been showcasing is truly special, I don't think any PG who played this season can reach this kind of level.

I'm starting to think that the Aces might nor care all that much if Cambage stops showing up.


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PostPosted: 09/18/19 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
I am in absolute awe of how Plum has played in the playoffs. I knew she was good, but I never knew she had THIS in her.


A little bit of that college senior came out in this game.

Aladyyn wrote:
The command of the game she's been showcasing is truly special, I don't think any PG who played this season can reach this kind of level.


Okay, well the trick is to play like this every night, which obviously hasn’t been happening most of the season.

Aladyyn wrote:
I'm starting to think that the Aces might nor care all that much if Cambage stops showing up.


Based on what? They don’t need her now? She’s been the biggest difference in the team from last year. Last year, lottery. This year, championship semifinals.



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Aladyyn



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 2:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Aladyyn wrote:
I am in absolute awe of how Plum has played in the playoffs. I knew she was good, but I never knew she had THIS in her.


A little bit of that college senior came out in this game.

Aladyyn wrote:
The command of the game she's been showcasing is truly special, I don't think any PG who played this season can reach this kind of level.


Okay, well the trick is to play like this every night, which obviously hasn’t been happening most of the season.

Aladyyn wrote:
I'm starting to think that the Aces might nor care all that much if Cambage stops showing up.


Based on what? They don’t need her now? She’s been the biggest difference in the team from last year. Last year, lottery. This year, championship semifinals.


Of course, if she plays like this every game she's a top 5 player in the league.

Cambage just seems to really not fit in well with the rest of the team on offense. Every other player that matters on this roster wants to run and play fast, Cambage can't really handle running up and down the floor the same way Wilson and Hamby can. She's fairly one-dimensional on offense and while we can say it works, I still think she's quite redundant with Wilson on the squad and that's also holding A'ja back. I'm sure Laimbeer appreciates having a big body in the paint but one of these days he has to bring his offense from 1992 to 2019, right? Laughing


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PostPosted: 09/18/19 2:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The Aces had one day’s rest on a road trip, while the Mystics had 9 days off at home. Probably an extenuating circumstance. I thought Cambage did well enough under the circumstance.

It’s not often your center scores 19 pts and gets 12 reb in a game and they’re seen as a detriment to the team.

Laimbeer threw Cambage under the bus a little bit. That’s just his style, probably for motivation. He knows she has the tools to be the most dominant player in the game.

I think Laimbeer should use this game as a guide and have the starters be the players who played the most minutes in this last game.

So it’d be
Plum/JYoung/Colson
McBride/Rodgers/Prince
Hamby/TYoung
Wilson/Park
Cambage/Swords

One problem with the Aces is they have too many backcourt players, not enough forwards. I guess Laimbeer always saw the backcourt as his biggest problem. With this lineup, he leaves himself a bit thin on the front court side. If they would have signed Brunson instead of Prince, THAT would have been an executive of the year level move. If Brunson was impossible, who else would have filled in just as well?

Next year, if SEA is thinking about letting Langhorne go, she’d fit in nicely behind Wilson. Then they can let Hamby get most of her minutes at SF.

Go big or go home, Laimbeer.



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scrappy



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 2:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
I am in absolute awe of how Plum has played in the playoffs. I knew she was good, but I never knew she had THIS in her. The command of the game she's been showcasing is truly special, I don't think any PG who played this season can reach this kind of level.

I'm starting to think that the Aces might nor care all that much if Cambage stops showing up.


plum still has a lot of work to do on the defensive end.

even on those loose high pick and roll, she always goes under the screen. she gives up a lot of points on that elbow jump shots.



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 5:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

scrappy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Plum IMO clearly jumped into EDD's path to initiate the contact. I remember the gist of what the rule book says about legal guarding position but does anyone know the specifics of a situation such as this? Meaning where a defensive player is running down the floor but an offensive player jumps into her natural path of running? I'm just curious if by the letter of the rules this should have been called a foul or not. I'm of the opinion that it was a good no-call. But I am saying that not knowing the specifics of when a foul should be called in this situation.


establishing legal guarding position: both feel on court, torso squares up facing offensive player.

it's ridicules to say plum jumps into delle donne's path. what about about delle donne jumping into plum's path?


I know what legal guarding position is. What I’m asking is if there’s language in the rules for the unusual situation of a defender running back in a straight line, which EDD was, and the offensive player deliberately veering into her path, which Plum clearly did. I’m not even saying I’m right about the no call. I’m just asking if there’s language in the roles to clarify this unusual scenario.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 5:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
scrappy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Plum IMO clearly jumped into EDD's path to initiate the contact. I remember the gist of what the rule book says about legal guarding position but does anyone know the specifics of a situation such as this? Meaning where a defensive player is running down the floor but an offensive player jumps into her natural path of running? I'm just curious if by the letter of the rules this should have been called a foul or not. I'm of the opinion that it was a good no-call. But I am saying that not knowing the specifics of when a foul should be called in this situation.


establishing legal guarding position: both feel on court, torso squares up facing offensive player.

it's ridicules to say plum jumps into delle donne's path. what about about delle donne jumping into plum's path?


I know what legal guarding position is. What I’m asking is if there’s language in the rules for the unusual situation of a defender running back in a straight line, which EDD was, and the offensive player deliberately veering into her path, which Plum clearly did. I’m not even saying I’m right about the no call. I’m just asking if there’s language in the roles to clarify this unusual scenario.


Delle Donne could have changed directions just like Plum did but she chose not to.



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 5:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
scrappy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Plum IMO clearly jumped into EDD's path to initiate the contact. I remember the gist of what the rule book says about legal guarding position but does anyone know the specifics of a situation such as this? Meaning where a defensive player is running down the floor but an offensive player jumps into her natural path of running? I'm just curious if by the letter of the rules this should have been called a foul or not. I'm of the opinion that it was a good no-call. But I am saying that not knowing the specifics of when a foul should be called in this situation.


establishing legal guarding position: both feel on court, torso squares up facing offensive player.

it's ridicules to say plum jumps into delle donne's path. what about about delle donne jumping into plum's path?


I know what legal guarding position is. What I’m asking is if there’s language in the rules for the unusual situation of a defender running back in a straight line, which EDD was, and the offensive player deliberately veering into her path, which Plum clearly did. I’m not even saying I’m right about the no call. I’m just asking if there’s language in the roles to clarify this unusual scenario.


Now that's an interesting point ... in the high school rule book, at least, it says that a defensive player is entitled to her path to the basket, which was the path EDD was on. Plum intersected that path, so if that aspect of the book applies (if that statement is in the WNBA book), then by the rules, if anything, the foul was on Plum.



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Luuuc
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PostPosted: 09/18/19 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
in the high school rule book, at least, it says that a defensive player is entitled to her path to the basket, which was the path EDD was on. Plum intersected that path, so if that aspect of the book applies (if that statement is in the WNBA book), then by the rules, if anything, the foul was on Plum.

I hope that isn't in the WNBA rule book because yikes - that is one stupid rule.



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 6:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
scrappy wrote:
NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
Plum IMO clearly jumped into EDD's path to initiate the contact. I remember the gist of what the rule book says about legal guarding position but does anyone know the specifics of a situation such as this? Meaning where a defensive player is running down the floor but an offensive player jumps into her natural path of running? I'm just curious if by the letter of the rules this should have been called a foul or not. I'm of the opinion that it was a good no-call. But I am saying that not knowing the specifics of when a foul should be called in this situation.


establishing legal guarding position: both feel on court, torso squares up facing offensive player.

it's ridicules to say plum jumps into delle donne's path. what about about delle donne jumping into plum's path?


I know what legal guarding position is. What I’m asking is if there’s language in the rules for the unusual situation of a defender running back in a straight line, which EDD was, and the offensive player deliberately veering into her path, which Plum clearly did. I’m not even saying I’m right about the no call. I’m just asking if there’s language in the roles to clarify this unusual scenario.


Delle Donne could have changed directions just like Plum did but she chose not to.


But why would she? She was running in a straight line and probably wasn’t expecting Plum to veer in front of her.



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Luuuc wrote:
ClayK wrote:
in the high school rule book, at least, it says that a defensive player is entitled to her path to the basket, which was the path EDD was on. Plum intersected that path, so if that aspect of the book applies (if that statement is in the WNBA book), then by the rules, if anything, the foul was on Plum.

I hope that isn't in the WNBA rule book because yikes - that is one stupid rule.


That would make screening illegal Shocked



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PostPosted: 09/18/19 6:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I can’t find a parallel WNBA rule but I’d assume the high school rule references players running in a straight line directly toward the basket.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 2:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NYL_WNBA_FAN wrote:
But why would she? She was running in a straight line and probably wasn’t expecting Plum to veer in front of her.


I’m betting Delle Donne wasn’t aware of the time left and was anticipating doing a chase-down block of Plum’s shot at the basket. Plum was aware of the time left and had to take the shot when she did. She didn’t veer in front of Delle Donne but rather squared up to take a jump shot. When Plum took the shot, Delle Donne couldn’t stop quickly enough and bodied up Plum, throwing her shot off. It was a foul before the time ran out.




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PostPosted: 09/19/19 2:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Aladyyn wrote:
I am in absolute awe of how Plum has played in the playoffs. I knew she was good, but I never knew she had THIS in her. The command of the game she's been showcasing is truly special, I don't think any PG who played this season can reach this kind of level.

I'm starting to think that the Aces might nor care all that much if Cambage stops showing up.

Bringing Plum off the bench seems to have worked well for her - it's just a shame that the lineup Laimbeer put in place instead is an absolute disaster. Two options seem to make sense to me going forward - either reinstate Plum and hope she's discovered something and starting or not is irrelevant, or continue bringing her off the bench and try something else for the starting lineup. Because this Young/Young/McBride perimeter just doesn't have enough offense to survive, or enough defense to make up for that. Time after time they're racing to send someone to the scorer's table at the start of halves to try to stop the bleeding. Do something else.



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 7:47 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

zune69 wrote:
Ex-Ref wrote:


That comment was in regards to you seeming to want a review on every potential violation that might occur. Not on things that are ACTUALLY violations that happened being called. Like a foul at the end of the game.

We'll call a lane violation and let you try again.



But we could come to the same conclusion in regard to not calling all contact a foul because the game would exceed 2 hours. Why call a foul on EDD on the last possession when the same amount of contact was not being called a foul up to that point?



I'm not saying that all contact is a foul. I'm saying that the contact that EDD made with KP was a foul.

Making the shot was her intent, not getting a foul call. Any foul called would have been icing on the cake. She wasn't putting up a wild-ass shot hoping to try and draw a shooting foul vs. common foul after the contact was made.

I didn't see the entire game. They were letting defenders run into jump shooters the entire game?



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 9:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
Luuuc wrote:
ClayK wrote:
in the high school rule book, at least, it says that a defensive player is entitled to her path to the basket, which was the path EDD was on. Plum intersected that path, so if that aspect of the book applies (if that statement is in the WNBA book), then by the rules, if anything, the foul was on Plum.

I hope that isn't in the WNBA rule book because yikes - that is one stupid rule.


That would make screening illegal Shocked


Not really, because a player who has established position cannot be displaced. The intent, though, is that if a defensive player is heading to the basket, and so is an offensive player, then the offensive player cannot displace the defensive player from her path just because she has the ball.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 9:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ex-Ref wrote:

I didn't see the entire game. They were letting defenders run into jump shooters the entire game?


It was the same crappy inconsistent officiating...Certain possessions they'd let contact go, other possessions they'd call ticky-tack fouls. For example"

6:23 mark in 3rd qt- Plum drives ball to the basket, EDD hits her in the back, Plum misses shot...No foul call.

4:15 mark in 3rd qt- Cloud drives ball to the basket, Plum gets called for a foul on very minimal contact, Cloud makes basket and FT.

And just for clarification/the record. I thought EDD did foul Plum and the referee should've blown the whistle. My reference to your post from the Sky/Aces thread was just me having a little fun Razz


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PostPosted: 09/19/19 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The problem at all levels of basketball -- and it's a real one -- is that the officiating is always "crappy and inconsistent." It's almost impossible to see everything, and angles are crucial. If a player blocks the ref's view of contact, then what is she supposed to do? Guess? (Not saying that happened with Plum/EDD by the way.)

I don't think there's a solution, really, and basically, that's the nature of the game. There will always be bad calls, there will always be inconsistency, and there will always be frustration.

On the other hand, if there is a solution, is a way to improve the situation, I'd love to hear it.



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zune69



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The problem at all levels of basketball -- and it's a real one -- is that the officiating is always "crappy and inconsistent." It's almost impossible to see everything, and angles are crucial. If a player blocks the ref's view of contact, then what is she supposed to do? Guess? (Not saying that happened with Plum/EDD by the way.)

I don't think there's a solution, really, and basically, that's the nature of the game. There will always be bad calls, there will always be inconsistency, and there will always be frustration.

On the other hand, if there is a solution, is a way to improve the situation, I'd love to hear it.


1. They could start by not being bias (Home court)

2. Call the obvious fouls (contact on the shooter's arm, Hand checking, riding the ball handler, players using the off hand to create space. moving screens)

3. Don't let the constant complaining of coaches/players/fans dictate how you call the game.

4. No make up calls- You make a bad call on one team, don't call a violation/foul on the other team thinking that's going to even it out.

5. Stop officiating games based on the score or foul situation.


I don't expect the officals to see/get every call right. There's always going to be room for human error. All I'm saying is, make the same judgement calls for both teams.




Last edited by zune69 on 09/19/19 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
ClayK



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 1:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The problem at all levels of basketball -- and it's a real one -- is that the officiating is always "crappy and inconsistent." It's almost impossible to see everything, and angles are crucial. If a player blocks the ref's view of contact, then what is she supposed to do? Guess? (Not saying that happened with Plum/EDD by the way.)

I don't think there's a solution, really, and basically, that's the nature of the game. There will always be bad calls, there will always be inconsistency, and there will always be frustration.

On the other hand, if there is a solution, is a way to improve the situation, I'd love to hear it.


1. They could start by not being bias (Home court)

>There was a huge study done on this, and it's human nature. People want to please other people, and officials will always respond to crowd pressure.

2. Call the obvious fouls (contact on the shooter's arm, Hand checking, riding the ball handler, players using the off hand to create space. moving screens)

>I don't think any official would disagree with you -- so how do you get that to happen if it doesn't happen now? (And it happens at all levels of the game, from the NBA on down ...)

3. Don't let the constant complaining of coaches/players/fans dictate how you call the game.

>Players and coaches can be ignored, and are in great part. Crowds are different.

4. No make up calls- You make a bad call on one team, don't call a violation/foul on the other team thinking that's going to even it out.

>I'm pretty sure officials are instructed constantly not to use make-up calls, but it's possible that some associations/supervisors encourage it. I'm with you on this, but I'm not sure it's a conscious thing. (It could be nothing more than the law of averages.)

5. Stop officiated games based on the score or foul situation.

>This is a tough one because in a rout, it's hard to call the game the same as it is when it's a two-point game. At the pro level, fouling out a star is bad business, so there's some protection going on for financial reasons -- don't know if that's avoidable, but it probably should be. Ideally, though, the refs would be completely unconscious about time, score or players ... but again, these issues are at all levels of the sport.


I don't expect the officals to see/get every call right. There's always going to be room for human error. All I'm saying is, make the same judgement calls for both teams.

>Do you think officials consciously don't make the same judgment calls for both teams? If so, what is their bias? Or, to put it another way, why don't they?



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 2:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
>I don't think any official would disagree with you -- so how do you get that to happen if it doesn't happen now?


1. Get rid of the lowest graded officials...and re-train them.
2. Make sure that the officiating is in line with the rule book. We don't need any rogue officials.
3. Ignore the complaints of the Coaches/Players during game action...Any complaints during the game can be addressed during a timeout, halftime or after the game.
4. Officiate the games without letting the fans influence their decision making.
5. Hire strong-minded officials who don't give a bleep what other people think and not officials who are emotional and easily manipulated by the opinions of others.
6. Give the officials bonuses based on Grade/Performance.
7. All officials should have to undergo a psychological evaluation.

ClayK wrote:
>Do you think officials consciously don't make the same judgment calls for both teams? If so, what is their bias? Or, to put it another way, why don't they?


I think it's both (consciously/subconsciously) I feel that some officials (not all) show slight favoritism towards the home team. As you mentioned in your previous post...Officials have a tendency to respond to crowd pressure...Had the Delle Donne/Plum play took place in Las Vegas they more than likely would've called the foul on EDD.




Last edited by zune69 on 09/19/19 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
nsw43



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PostPosted: 09/19/19 3:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

If you look at the video shot from the side showing the whole court, EDD comes straight up the center of the court after hitting her shot. Plum comes up the right side (facing Aces basket) and then suddenly veers left into EDD's path. EDD slows down, almost stops, and raises her hands to indicate she is trying to avoid Plum. Plum heaves a desperation shot and falls down. Time runs out.

If Plum had continued on her initial path, she may have gotten a pretty good look at a 3-point shot and perhaps won the game. Instead she wasted effort and focus by trying to intercept EDD and draw a foul. Maybe she thought she could hit the 2-pointer get an and-one to win the game. Klunky way to do it, and it didn't work.

The refs were erratic all game, but they were right to stuff their whistles at the end. It was a good no-call.


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PostPosted: 09/19/19 4:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

nsw43 wrote:
If you look at the video shot from the side showing the whole court, EDD comes straight up the center of the court after hitting her shot.


She missed her shot. If you didn’t see that, how are you going to get the more intricate details correct?

nsw43 wrote:
Plum comes up the right side (facing Aces basket) and then suddenly veers left into EDD's path.


It probably would have been better if she stayed right where defensive 12th-teamer Toliver was headed. But Plum is lefty. She strongly prefers going left.

nsw43 wrote:
EDD slows down, almost stops, and raises her hands to indicate she is trying to avoid Plum.


She never raises her hands (as if it’d make a difference) until she high fives teammates and confesses to Meesseman that she fouled her.

nsw43 wrote:
Plum heaves a desperation shot and falls down. Time runs out.


It wasn’t desperation at all. It was well within her range.... about the top of the free throw circle. She was definitely knocked down by the momentum of Delle Donne’s contact. In other words, she was fouled.

nsw43 wrote:
If Plum had continued on her initial path, she may have gotten a pretty good look at a 3-point shot and perhaps won the game. Instead she wasted effort and focus by trying to intercept EDD and draw a foul.


I don’t see that as her intent at all. That’s quite a bit of a stretch. The way she was playing, the odds are much better just taking a clean shot, which Delle Donne didn’t permit.

nsw43 wrote:
Maybe she thought she could hit the 2-pointer get an and-one to win the game. Klunky way to do it, and it didn't work.


She’s a lefty and maybe she wanted to get to her sweet spot. There’s no excuses for a defender who leaves her feet. They’re responsible for any contact they make on the offensive player. Check the screenshot I supplied.

nsw43 wrote:
The refs were erratic all game, but they were right to stuff their whistles at the end. It was a good no-call.


I’m curious where they had them stuffed.



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