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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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 Posted: 02/22/20 8:25 pm ::: |
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| Chris Sienko is the GM in Atlanta. He was the GM in Connecticut when Charles forced her way out. Why would he want her back? Even though the official reason she left the Sun is because Tina wanted to be closer to home in New York, we also know she was very upset with Sienko for firing Mike Thibault. People on this board felt that Charles didn't even play hard that final season with the Sun. Despite that, CT still tried to appease her, even bringing back aging Katie Douglas to give Tina the veteran support that she requested. But after stringing management along while she was undecided, Charles finally demanded a trade. If I'm Sienko, I wouldn't go near Tina Charles with a ten-foot pole. Unless someone has specific information that they kissed and made up, I see a trade to Atlanta as very unlikely.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 02/22/20 8:31 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
| Chris Sienko is the GM in Atlanta. He was the GM in Connecticut when Charles forced her way out. Why would he want her back? Even though the official reason she left the Sun is because Tina wanted to be closer to home in New York, we also know she was very upset with Sienko for firing Mike Thibault. People on this board felt that Charles didn't even play hard that final season with the Sun. Despite that, CT still tried to appease her, even bringing back aging Katie Douglas to give Tina the veteran support that she requested. But after stringing management along while she was undecided, Charles finally demanded a trade. If I'm Sienko, I wouldn't go near Tina Charles with a ten-foot pole. Unless someone has specific information that they kissed and made up, I see a trade to Atlanta as very unlikely. |
I'd forgotten about that. Great points. I really don't want Dream giving up any assets for Charles and this is good news. (Cazlora is still on sale though - how about Boyd?).
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/22/20 8:48 pm ::: |
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There are assumptions in this discussion that I find problematic.
1. I highly doubt that Kolb and Hopkins are "pushing out" Charles. I say that if they were she'd already be gone. Do they want to trade her? Quite possibly.. if they're getting a player or a package (including a draft choice) that they really want. So far we know this for certain: if the Liberty have received one trade proposal or 100, they haven't been thrilled.
2. I disagree with the thought that we have to move Charles now or she'll be gone in 2021. Quite true that in 2021 the Liberty will no longer have rights to Tina Charles. That doesn't mean she'll head elsewhere. 2020 could go well for Charles playing with Ionescu and our other young players. Any tension with Kolb and/or Hopkins could dissolve. She could decide to stay.
I'd love to see Tina Charles on our team this season and perhaps beyond. I'm not against trading her--tomorrow or whenever--if the deal is right. The many, many proposed trades I've read here don't impress me a bit.
I say "no" to all of them. And perhaps Kolb and Hopkins have said just what I have to these exact proposals.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/22/20 10:52 pm ::: |
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The whole Charles discussion started because of the rumor that came out that PX was trying to acquire both Diggings-Smith and Charles. PX did acquire Diggings-Smith so there was probably some validity to the rumor.
Charles is cored. And therefore would have to agree to any trade. And of course is the only cored and or high level free agent except for Cabbage and C. Gray who hasn't signed with her old team or been traded to a new team. So I don't find it shocking that there is some speculation.
Any conjecture that she is being forced out or wants to leave is simply that tbh she was one of the last players to sign last year as well so it may just be the fact that she is cored and is already guaranteed the max so what difference does it make that she signs February 10th or April 1st.
I personally never said that Charles does orCharles not want to leave. I have said I think she should sign the cored max deal for one year and be allowed to become an UFA next season as she has earned that.
I also forgot about Seinko being Atlanta GM I thought Atlanta might be interested as they are clearly trying to retool instead of rebuild and compete now. Atlanta also has some decent assets the #4 pick and Billings or K. Brown could be a good place to start and fit nicely with the rebuild timeline. Obviously it seems less likely with the history that exists.
The good news is what people think, don't think or speculate doesn't really matter. We will know what happens when it happens and nothing anyone says on this message board will have any impact on the final outcome this year next year and in Perpetuity
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/23/20 12:05 am ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| The good news is what people think, don't think or speculate doesn't really matter. We will know what happens when it happens and nothing anyone says on this message board will have any impact on the final outcome this year next year and in Perpetuity |
I disagree. Of course "what people think, don't think, or speculate doesn't really matter" in the decisions that Kolb, Hopkins, and Charles will make. But, in another sense, all this definitely matters. Otherwise why would you and I and many others take time to read other people's comments, reply to them, post articles and stats, etc. etc.? Anyone active here (and people who simply lurk--I met a Liberty fan who said this was true of her) is saying by their investment of time that these discussions DO matter.
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J-Spoon
Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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| Posted: 02/23/20 1:44 am ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| The good news is what people think, don't think or speculate doesn't really matter. We will know what happens when it happens and nothing anyone says on this message board will have any impact on the final outcome this year next year and in Perpetuity |
But, in another sense, all this definitely matters. Otherwise why would you and I and many others take time to read other people's comments, reply to them, post articles and stats, etc. etc.? . |
Boredom, a need to feel a connection to a community, a need to be right, a need to feel actively apart of something we are merely a spectator of, a distraction from actual life, to show off, to share our opinions, to bludgeon people with our opinions, to feel heard, to celebrate a deeper understanding of something we care about with others who care about that same thing and appreciate our deeper understanding, to associate deeper social and cultural movement as expressed in the object of our interest, some sort of feeling of ownership of an experience, possibly some feeling of control in our lives when what we predict or speculate turns out to be true, an attempt at humor, too much coffee, insomnia, because we are sick of posting about politics, we've watched everything in our cue on NetFlix, local tribalism, we're sick of our family and they leave us alone when were on the computer, because we have to answer a rhetorical question as if the poster wanted an actual response,
Maybe you're right some of this does matter
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/23/20 1:56 am ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
Boredom, a need to feel a connection to a community, a need to be right, a need to feel actively apart of something we are merely a spectator of, a distraction from actual life, to show off, to share our opinions, to bludgeon people with our opinions, to feel heard, to celebrate a deeper understanding of something we care about with others who care about that same thing and appreciate our deeper understanding, to associate deeper social and cultural movement as expressed in the object of our interest, some sort of feeling of ownership of an experience, possibly some feeling of control in our lives when what we predict or speculate turns out to be true, an attempt at humor, too much coffee, insomnia, because we are sick of posting about politics, we've watched everything in our cue on NetFlix, local tribalism, we're sick of our family and they leave us alone when were on the computer, because we have to answer a rhetorical question as if the poster wanted an actual response,
Maybe you're right some of this does matter |
Very well said. And many more reasons than I'd have come up with. Thank you.
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Randy
Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 02/23/20 8:17 am ::: |
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| This is why I can't help but read NY threads. That was an insightful post J-Spoon.
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root_thing
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 02/23/20 8:34 am ::: |
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I just returned from 3 weeks off this board. I missed the most active free agent and trade period in WNBA history. Did it make a difference in my life? Not really. I probably would have commented on this thread about the Tina Charles trade rumors, but since she didn’t get traded, the posts would have been so much hot air. Just a good reminder that this place is a diversion and not a necessity. When it gets aggravating, the simple solution is to leave – just like changing the channel on a bad TV show.
The one actual change in my life that I noticed is that my spam volume dropped precipitously. Bitdefender has been warning me for two years that Rebkell is a dangerous website because our passwords are not transmitted in a secure manner. I ignored the message because there is no valuable information stored on Rebkell – just my secondary email address. My spam problem is with my primary email address. Nonetheless, while I was off Rebkell my spam dropped from 140-150 a day to 40-50. Coincidence? Maybe, maybe not. Anyone else ever notice a connection between Rebkell and spam?
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six sense
Joined: 12 Feb 2020
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| Posted: 02/23/20 9:23 am ::: |
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| For me this Tina situation is big, because it will tell me a lot about the front office! You can not after all this movement going on all around you to let Tina walk next year for nothing, that would be front office FAILURE!! Your inactivity in the free agent market clearly shows your going with the youth which I fully endorse. But if that's the case you can't sign Tina to a multi year contract because she is not on same time line, so you have to do something, can not just sit on your hands have got to get something done let's see how front office handles it's first major task!!
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 02/23/20 5:02 pm ::: |
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| J-Spoon wrote: |
| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| J-Spoon wrote: |
| The good news is what people think, don't think or speculate doesn't really matter. We will know what happens when it happens and nothing anyone says on this message board will have any impact on the final outcome this year next year and in Perpetuity |
But, in another sense, all this definitely matters. Otherwise why would you and I and many others take time to read other people's comments, reply to them, post articles and stats, etc. etc.? . |
Boredom, a need to feel a connection to a community, a need to be right, a need to feel actively apart of something we are merely a spectator of, a distraction from actual life, to show off, to share our opinions, to bludgeon people with our opinions, to feel heard, to celebrate a deeper understanding of something we care about with others who care about that same thing and appreciate our deeper understanding, to associate deeper social and cultural movement as expressed in the object of our interest, some sort of feeling of ownership of an experience, possibly some feeling of control in our lives when what we predict or speculate turns out to be true, an attempt at humor, too much coffee, insomnia, because we are sick of posting about politics, we've watched everything in our cue on NetFlix, local tribalism, we're sick of our family and they leave us alone when were on the computer, because we have to answer a rhetorical question as if the poster wanted an actual response,
Maybe you're right some of this does matter |
One of the most interesting and incisive posts I've read in a long time, J-Spoon. |
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bluedevilaztecfan5
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toad455
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 02/24/20 11:14 am ::: |
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| Assuming this means Johannes is committed to playing this season and we should see her for the majority of the season. Big signing and a big commitment for the Liberty & Johannes.
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Bob Lamm
Joined: 11 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 02/24/20 11:29 am ::: |
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| Wonderful news about Johannes!!!
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Shades
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| Posted: 02/24/20 12:23 pm ::: |
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| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
https://liberty.wnba.com/news/new-york-liberty-re-signs-marine-johannes/
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| “We expect Marine to report to the team at the conclusion of her overseas club obligations and are very excited that she is committed to the Liberty long term.” |
Yay!!! Excited she should be there for the start of the season!!! |
Now that the handwringing over whether or not Johannes is committed to the Liberty should be over, are fans more open to starting Johannes? The multiyear aspect makes me think they were able to persuade her into it by talk of an increased role.
Let’s see some updated Liberty depth charts!
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toad455
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| Posted: 02/24/20 12:40 pm ::: |
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| It will be interesting to see the minutes allocated to her this season. She should be a 25-30 minute player off the bench. Maybe we see some three guard line-ups this season with Clarendon-Ionescu-Johannes?
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bluedevilaztecfan5
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| Posted: 02/24/20 12:58 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
Now that the handwringing over whether or not Johannes is committed to the Liberty should be over, are fans more open to starting Johannes? The multiyear aspect makes me think they were able to persuade her into it by talk of an increased role.
Let’s see some updated Liberty depth charts! |
(Ionescu 5’11)/Clarendon 5’9/Boyd 5’9
Durr 5’10/Johannés 5’10
Nurse 6’0/Allen 6’2
(Charles 6’4)/(Gray 6’2)
Zahui B 6’5/Stokes 6’3/Xu 6’9
I want to begin the season with Johannés as our 6th player/first off the bench.
I expect her to get a lot of minutes either way, and like her paired with Clarendon better than I like Durr/Clarendon. I know Layshia can make plays and get assists, but when most of the bench is in I think we need Marine in that second unit to have a more go to scorer. Hoping Asia can blossom more in her sophomore year and be more aggressive and hit the 3 like she did in college (38.5% career).
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Stormeo
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:02 pm ::: |
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| toad455 wrote: |
| It will be interesting to see the minutes allocated to her this season. She should be a 25-30 minute player off the bench. Maybe we see some three guard line-ups this season with Clarendon-Ionescu-Johannes? |
There's now gonna be so many projected guards on this team from seemingly start to finish: Clarendon, Boyd, Durr, Nurse, Johannès, and adding Ionescu to top it all off. And there doesn't seem to be much variation at SF with Rebecca Allen along with some out-of-position play from Nurse and Johannès - all three, though they may not be slouches on defense, seem distinctly offense-oriented. It feels like they should at the very least trade one of those guards (obviously Boyd would be the hope) for a physical defense-oriented SF.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:17 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| It will be interesting to see the minutes allocated to her this season. She should be a 25-30 minute player off the bench. Maybe we see some three guard line-ups this season with Clarendon-Ionescu-Johannes? |
There's now gonna be so many projected guards on this team from seemingly start to finish: Clarendon, Boyd, Durr, Nurse, Johannès, and adding Ionescu to top it all off. And there doesn't seem to be much variation at SF with Rebecca Allen along with some out-of-position play from Nurse and Johannès - all three, though they may not be slouches on defense, seem distinctly offense-oriented. It feels like they should at the very least trade one of those guards (obviously Boyd would be the hope) for a physical defense-oriented SF. |
So if it's not Boyd, then which guard do you want to trade? Ionescu? Durr? Johannes? Clarendon? I'm against trading any of them now or during this season. I'm fine with trading Boyd but I can't imagine the Liberty getting anyone of much value for her. The same with trading Allen for a "physical-defense oriented SF. And I definitely wouldn't trade Nurse.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:24 pm ::: |
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| bluedevilaztecfan5 wrote: |
| [ I want to begin the season with Johannés as our 6th player/first off the bench. |
I agree. But I've never found the questions of who starts to be interesting. I view as far more important the questions of how many minutes each player gets; who they're on the court with (you've made a good case for Johannes playing a good deal with Clarendon); and, most crucial, who is on the court in the fourth quarter of close games and in overtime.
Surely Hopkins will be looking at a lot at Durr and Johannes with these questions in mind.
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root_thing
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:27 pm ::: |
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Again, Johannes is fun to watch, but to put things in perspective, she comes off the bench behind Bria Hartley on the French National team despite having 4 or 5 years more seniority. During last year's Eurobasket Quarterfinals, France trailed Belgium by 3 with something like 19 seconds left. Facing elimination, the French coach sent out Ayayi, Epoupa, and Hartley as her perimeter players. Eventually, it was Hartley who drilled the game-tying 3-pointer while Johannes watched from the bench. Also, a couple of weeks ago during the Olympic qualifiers, France tried a 3-guard line-up with Johannes at SF. On the defensive end, she got killed by Bec Allen, who posted her up, ran Johannes off picks, and at other times simply shot over her. Not saying Marine can't be good, but offensive flair is not the same as consistency or quality play on both ends of the court. Johannes still has a lot of work to do.
And by the way, we have this quote from Kolb:
| Quote: |
| “Rebecca Allen showed what she can do and we are really excited about what she can do,” he said. “In terms of just really spreading the floor and when we talk about that three-point identity, we think Bec is poised for a break out year with us.” |
So, between Nurse, Ionescu, Durr, Clarendon, Johannes, and Allen, you're splitting 120 minutes between 6 players. Not everyone is going to see a lot of minutes.
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Bob Lamm
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:40 pm ::: |
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| root_thing wrote: |
Again, Johannes is fun to watch, but to put things in perspective, she comes off the bench behind Bria Hartley on the French National team despite having 4 or 5 years more seniority. During last year's Eurobasket Quarterfinals, France trailed Belgium by 3 with something like 19 seconds left. Facing elimination, the French coach sent out Ayayi, Epoupa, and Hartley as her perimeter players. Eventually, it was Hartley who drilled the game-tying 3-pointer while Johannes watched from the bench. Also, a couple of weeks ago during the Olympic qualifiers, France tried a 3-guard line-up with Johannes at SF. On the defensive end, she got killed by Bec Allen, who posted her up, ran Johannes off picks, and at other times simply shot over her. Not saying Marine can't be good, but offensive flair is not the same as consistency or quality play on both ends of the court. Johannes still has a lot of work to do.
And by the way, we have this quote from Kolb:
| Quote: |
| “Rebecca Allen showed what she can do and we are really excited about what she can do,” he said. “In terms of just really spreading the floor and when we talk about that three-point identity, we think Bec is poised for a break out year with us.” |
So, between Nurse, Ionescu, Durr, Clarendon, Johannes, and Allen, you're splitting 120 minutes between 6 players. Not everyone is going to see a lot of minutes. |
This information about Johannes is valuable and sobering. I just checked and saw that Johannes is 25 years old. That's not the same as being 21 or 22 and starting out in professional basketball. At her best, she's a joy to watch on the offensive end. But your caution makes total sense.
The quote from Kolb about Allen is lovely, but count me skeptical. Allen definitely took a step forward for the Liberty last season. But I don't think many professional athletes in any sport have a "breakout year" at age 27.
I hope I'm wrong, but I'll be surprised if Allen in 2020 is much different than Allen in 2019. Some great performances but inconsistent.
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bluedevilaztecfan5
Joined: 16 Mar 2010
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:40 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
I agree. But I've never found the questions of who starts to be interesting. I view as far more important the questions of how many minutes each player gets; who they're on the court with (you've made a good case for Johannes playing a good deal with Clarendon); and, most crucial, who is on the court in the fourth quarter of close games and in overtime.
Surely Hopkins will be looking at a lot at Durr and Johannes with these questions in mind. |
Totally, I care most about who is on the floor in crunch time. Of course I’m sure we both would like to start the game well. But we all know leads come and go throughout plenty of games.
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Stormeo
Joined: 14 Jul 2019
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:46 pm ::: |
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| Bob Lamm wrote: |
| Stormeo wrote: |
| toad455 wrote: |
| It will be interesting to see the minutes allocated to her this season. She should be a 25-30 minute player off the bench. Maybe we see some three guard line-ups this season with Clarendon-Ionescu-Johannes? |
There's now gonna be so many projected guards on this team from seemingly start to finish: Clarendon, Boyd, Durr, Nurse, Johannès, and adding Ionescu to top it all off. And there doesn't seem to be much variation at SF with Rebecca Allen along with some out-of-position play from Nurse and Johannès - all three, though they may not be slouches on defense, seem distinctly offense-oriented. It feels like they should at the very least trade one of those guards (obviously Boyd would be the hope) for a physical defense-oriented SF. |
So if it's not Boyd, then which guard do you want to trade? Ionescu? Durr? Johannes? Clarendon? I'm against trading any of them now or during this season. I'm fine with trading Boyd but I can't imagine the Liberty getting anyone of much value for her. The same with trading Allen for a "physical-defense oriented SF. And I definitely wouldn't trade Nurse. |
Good question! It'd be quite unpopular here of course, but the front office should just float out Durr's name and see what the response would be from teams that have such a SF. I'm not saying they need to get rid of her of course, but really Durr is largely limited to playing SG in this league. She's not just any 5'10 guard, but 5'10 guards out of any profile do grow on trees. It would be a trade where, in order to get some, ya have to give some.
The only player I think I would realistically consider trading Durr straight-up for would be soon-to-be-rookie Kaila Charles (stats here). I find her to be this draft's defensive SF-type, though she's also shown an ability to take over a game if need be. That type of move would allow Nurse to immediately slide back to her own natural SG position, as I'd imagine they'd try starting K. Charles from the get-go. She doesn't really have a three-point shot (yet), but plenty others on this team do. She's also not a great passer, but that's what bringing in Ionescu is for amongst other things.  Why have one Charles when you could have two?  (if any  )
In terms of those already in the league... well, it's too bad Tamera Young weren't several years younger.  Bringing Kahleah Copper "home" (well, closer to it, anyway) could've been great, too. A 2 for 1 trade in which the "1" is Durr is really tricky, since she plays the most common position and had the injury that she had last year. Gabby Williams + Something could work. Not much else. Trading her for age-equivalent pieces too is tricky. If Dallas wanted to offer a first-round pick (not #9) plus either Allisha Gray or Kayla Thornton, I'd do it. Brian Agler has always liked guards who can score, so maybe!
Trading Boyd of course unlocks more possibilities. I still think she has value as a back-up PG, so maybe others around the league do, too. Boyd + something for G. Williams, A. Gray, Thornton - heck, Boyd for Karima Christmas-Kelly straight-up? At least if she were still injured, it would open up more minutes for everyone else. Find a way to snatch Kennedy Burke from Indiana from their own coaching change. And if ya really want to give Boyd away, trade her for Kaela Davis. I know I said Davis will only succeed on a contending team, but she could be a fit in limited minutes.
Ok clearly I'm on one of my tangents again. Anyways, those are just my ideas - hopefully you don't find too many of them laughable.
Last edited by Stormeo on 02/24/20 1:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mavcarter
#NATC
Joined: 02 Sep 2010
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| Posted: 02/24/20 1:53 pm ::: |
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| Stormeo wrote: |
| A 2 for 1 trade in which the "1" is Durr is really tricky, since she plays the most common position and had the injury that she had last year. Gabby Williams + Something could work. |
Deal._________________
| wrote: |
| Or maybe said poster should quit being a nuisance when people don’t agree? |
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