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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 02/15/17 3:08 pm ::: Why volleyball, not basketball, is winning the popular vote |
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Why volleyball -- not basketball -- is winning the popular vote
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Two years ago, for the first time, more high school girls played volleyball (432,176) than basketball (429,504), according to the National Federation of State High School Associations. In 2015-16, volleyball added another 4,133 girls to those numbers, while basketball lost 276 participants.
Examine the past decade, and the numbers are more striking. Statistics compiled by the NFHS show an increase of more than 40,000 volleyball players in that span and a decrease of 23,000 basketball players. |
http://www.espn.com/espnw/sports/article/18659764/why-young-athletes-flocking-volleyball-not-basketball-record-numbers
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/15/17 4:40 pm ::: |
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Great story ... reinforces my impressions over the years, from dislike of contact, to attire, to difficulty of the game.
One other aspect Vicki didn't touch on: Go to a club volleyball tournament and listen to the parents in the stands, and then do the same for basketball. The cultures are totally different, and the more raucous, confrontational basketball atmosphere is another reason some families choose volleyball.
It is what it is, though, and the real question is where it will stop. At what point will equilibrium be reached and volleyball quit adding participants while basketball holds steady or declines? Are we there now? Or will this trend continue for the next five or ten years until volleyball is clearly the No. 1 sport for girls?
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 02/15/17 6:17 pm ::: |
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Several things of interest.
- While everyone's talking about Volleyball's growth and Basketball's contraction, I had never read before that in places where volleyball is already heavily established and larger than basketball, it's Volleyball that's seeing a contraction. That suggests it just cyclical. Also, the growth of the horrible club system in Volleyball is reducing opportunities in high schools and reducing interest, just as it has damaged Basketball. If you don't want to or can't play year round or can't afford travel teams, you're SOL.
- You can see where Mike Flynn's bread is buttered. "Basketball is a hard sport to master. Unless you're willing to put in the time and effort and have a certain level of athleticism and hand-eye skills, you will not be successful. You will be pushed out of the sport because of what it demands. In volleyball and lacrosse, those barriers are lower.". I don't know about Volleyball, but the notion you don't need athleticism or hand eye skills to play lacrosse well is absurd. Is that really the best explanation he can come up with? That volleyball and lacrosse are for the lazy, unathletic and unskilled?
- If girls want shorter Lycra uniforms, why don't they give them shorter Lycra uniforms for basketball? That seems like an easy fix.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/15/17 7:21 pm ::: |
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Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl".
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 02/15/17 7:30 pm ::: |
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| And ..... the net for women is 7.5 inches lower, allowing for spiking, the volleyball equivalent of a dunk.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 02/15/17 9:30 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
Well, some do, and then some don't. My daughter, for instance, was *anything* but a "girly girl", but she was not tall enough for basketball. She ended up playing soccer, was the shortest defender in her league, and cut an awful lot of taller players off at the knees. Frankly, I don't enjoy watching volleyball. It rather bores me. I like basketball. I also like soccer. I even like softball, for other reasons...although I wish girls would just play baseball instead.
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TechDawgMc
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 02/15/17 9:47 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Several things of interest.
- You can see where Mike Flynn's bread is buttered. "Basketball is a hard sport to master. Unless you're willing to put in the time and effort and have a certain level of athleticism and hand-eye skills, you will not be successful. You will be pushed out of the sport because of what it demands. In volleyball and lacrosse, those barriers are lower.". I don't know about Volleyball, but the notion you don't need athleticism or hand eye skills to play lacrosse well is absurd. Is that really the best explanation he can come up with? That volleyball and lacrosse are for the lazy, unathletic and unskilled?
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Athleticism may be more important in basketball than volleyball, but the time and effort to develop skills is probably stronger in volleyball. Or, more accurately, a player can put the effort into developing the skills almost regardless of athleticism (at least at some positions). I'm too short and too slow to have ever been a basketball stud -- even if I shot 3's until I couldn't stand. But I'm a pretty good setter because the skill matters much more than any athletic ability. I suspect girls figure that out pretty quickly.
The other thing that might make a difference is that volleyball is much less confrontational. You play on opposite sides of the court. And there is a bit of a "culture" of high sportsmanship around volleyball that isn't always there in more contact oriented sports.
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UK1996
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
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| Posted: 02/15/17 11:19 pm ::: |
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| Interesting, my younger sister recently gave up basketball for volleyball. In basketball she more of a defensive player, she could shoot but looked more for the pass than the shot, that sometimes hurt her. Her shot blocking translated pretty well to volleyball. I was a little upset that she gave up basketball, but its her life and I'm happy for her. I'm learning to love volleyball too. She's teaching me about the sport and we spend a lot of time practicing. One thing I love about sports is it gives us a way to bond. We lare from a rural area, so there isn't necessarily a lot to do.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 02/16/17 2:06 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
...
- If girls want shorter Lycra uniforms, why don't they give them shorter Lycra uniforms for basketball? That seems like an easy fix. |
There seem to be more players who are opting for shorter shorts in the past few years, at least one on nearly every team(?). I don't know if a rule change was required. I played in the era of shorter shorts, and I think they're much better suited for sports than the baggy, knee-length ones that are currently in favor.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/16/17 6:58 am ::: |
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""There's been a huge African-American crossover into our sport, and it's become the social norm now to play volleyball, whereas 10 or 15 years ago, it was basketball," "
I wonder if the WNBA being on TV has anything to do with the change.
But it seems like there should be equlibrium. Don't they have about the same amount of players on a squad? With both sports you can ride the bench, but with volleyball scoring they seem to never clear the bench (although most basketball coaches should be disciplined for how late they clear their bench). So you can be on a volleyball team and never play the entire season, even in blowouts.
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FrozenLVFan
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| Posted: 02/16/17 9:11 am ::: |
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| But you can preserve your hair and ribbons more easily on the bench.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/16/17 10:07 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
There's some code speak going on here. Basketball is widely seen as a sport filled with lesbians. Volleyball does not have that reputation. Like it or not, many girls don't want to be thought of as lesbians or even associated with lesbians.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/16/17 10:30 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
There's some code speak going on here. Basketball is widely seen as a sport filled with lesbians. Volleyball does not have that reputation. Like it or not, many girls don't want to be thought of as lesbians or even associated with lesbians. |
But is that "widely seen" true in 5th to 12th grade?
I understand the issue, just not certain it drives the choice at the ages being addressed in the article.
It's possible any "code" may be more about urban/suburban or economic class.
That's certainly true with girls lacrosse. I'm guessing there's an element of that in volleyball as well.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 02/16/17 10:39 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
There's some code speak going on here. Basketball is widely seen as a sport filled with lesbians. Volleyball does not have that reputation. Like it or not, many girls don't want to be thought of as lesbians or even associated with lesbians. |
But is that "widely seen" true in 5th to 12th grade?
I understand the issue, just not certain it drives the choice at the ages being addressed in the article.
It's possible any "code" may be more about urban/suburban or economic class.
That's certainly true with girls lacrosse. I'm guessing there's an element of that in volleyball as well. |
This is also true of field hockey and lacrosse. When do you see those played in inner city or rural schools? They are almost entirely the province of white suburban schools. A lot of that is also true of volleyball, at least where I come from. Softball, basketball, and track, not so. It used to be true of soccer, but that's changing.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 02/16/17 10:54 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
But is that "widely seen" true in 5th to 12th grade?
I understand the issue, just not certain it drives the choice at the ages being addressed in the article. |
It's absolutely true in high school and common in middle school.
You also have to consider how much of it is parent driven. They're likely to see basketball as a lesbian haven long before the kids do and begin driving their girls away from it because of that at a very young age.
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FrozenLVFan
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| Posted: 02/16/17 12:46 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
There's some code speak going on here. Basketball is widely seen as a sport filled with lesbians. Volleyball does not have that reputation. Like it or not, many girls don't want to be thought of as lesbians or even associated with lesbians. |
But is that "widely seen" true in 5th to 12th grade?
I understand the issue, just not certain it drives the choice at the ages being addressed in the article.
It's possible any "code" may be more about urban/suburban or economic class.
That's certainly true with girls lacrosse. I'm guessing there's an element of that in volleyball as well. |
This is also true of field hockey and lacrosse. When do you see those played in inner city or rural schools? They are almost entirely the province of white suburban schools. A lot of that is also true of volleyball, at least where I come from. Softball, basketball, and track, not so. It used to be true of soccer, but that's changing. |
Lacrosse and especially soccer have cut into field hockey's participation levels dramatically, so I don't think either the lesbian or social class arguments fully explain the participation trends in girls' sports. And BTW, field hockey has been played in New England's rural, albeit white, schools for 50+ years.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 02/16/17 1:40 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, you read this
"I wanted to compete against someone, but I didn't want that physical contact," she said. "Volleyball allows you to be a little more of a girl. You get to wear the ribbons, wear pink, wear your hair however you want and still be dainty when you play the sport. That draws a lot of young athletes to the sport."
And this
"Honestly, I just like the volleyball environment better. It's a little more chill," she said. "Basketball is definitely more hard-core, and I like being a girly girl sometimes."
And then you turn on the WVU - KSU game and you might think this is Exhibit A to that article because it's certainly physical, and it certainly doesn't look very "dainty" or " girly girl". |
There's some code speak going on here. Basketball is widely seen as a sport filled with lesbians. Volleyball does not have that reputation. Like it or not, many girls don't want to be thought of as lesbians or even associated with lesbians. |
But is that "widely seen" true in 5th to 12th grade?
I understand the issue, just not certain it drives the choice at the ages being addressed in the article.
It's possible any "code" may be more about urban/suburban or economic class.
That's certainly true with girls lacrosse. I'm guessing there's an element of that in volleyball as well. |
This is also true of field hockey and lacrosse. When do you see those played in inner city or rural schools? They are almost entirely the province of white suburban schools. A lot of that is also true of volleyball, at least where I come from. Softball, basketball, and track, not so. It used to be true of soccer, but that's changing. |
Lacrosse and especially soccer have cut into field hockey's participation levels dramatically, so I don't think either the lesbian or social class arguments fully explain the participation trends in girls' sports. And BTW, field hockey has been played in New England's rural, albeit white, schools for 50+ years. |
That may be, but it didn't make it out of there for years. It's played some here in VA, but in white suburban schools or in private schools and mostly in central and northern VA and maybe down around Norfolk. Certainly not much around where I live, or down in SW VA. Likewise lacrosse. Yes, JMU has teams, but that's a whole other thing. Neither one is played in east TN where I lived for 35 years. Soccer, OTOH, is HUGE, although it got a late start, beginning in the 90s. Volleyball is modestly popular there, bigger here I think. Softball is, and has been, a BFD in Tennessee for as long as I can remember, and I think in Virginia too.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/16/17 5:15 pm ::: |
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One other issue for lacrosse and water polo is the increasing importance of extracurricular activities in the basically mindless college application process.
A good athlete can take up one of those two sports, claim four years of varsity experience and probably a captainship on the applications, if not all-league honors.
But I think the fact that volleyball's lack of contact, and high school and club reputation as a more feminine sport than basketball, appeals to more girls. At the D1 level, both share competitive and aggressive cultures, but few girls play D1, and more, it seems, feel comfortable in the volleyball culture than the basketball one.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 02/16/17 5:36 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
But I think the fact that volleyball's lack of contact, and high school and club reputation as a more feminine sport than basketball, appeals to more girls. At the D1 level, both share competitive and aggressive cultures, but few girls play D1, and more, it seems, feel comfortable in the volleyball culture than the basketball one. |
Maybe, but I remain intrigued by this passage from the article:
"In volleyball hotbeds such as Texas and California, the growth continues, but where volleyball is the top sport by 15 to 20 percent, including in Nebraska, Iowa and Michigan, "we're starting to see a decline," DeBoer said.
Part of that is due to budget cuts and merging school systems. The boom in what she calls "pay-to-play" youth volleyball makes it less and less likely that a girl with minimal experience will be able to play at her high school.
"And that's what happened in basketball," she said."
That seems to suggest that as volleyball becomes more established and spots on teams become more competitive, the popularity drops.
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ClayK
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| Posted: 02/17/17 12:07 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
But I think the fact that volleyball's lack of contact, and high school and club reputation as a more feminine sport than basketball, appeals to more girls. At the D1 level, both share competitive and aggressive cultures, but few girls play D1, and more, it seems, feel comfortable in the volleyball culture than the basketball one. |
Maybe, but I remain intrigued by this passage from the article:
"In volleyball hotbeds such as Texas and California, the growth continues, but where volleyball is the top sport by 15 to 20 percent, including in Nebraska, Iowa and Michigan, "we're starting to see a decline," DeBoer said.
Part of that is due to budget cuts and merging school systems. The boom in what she calls "pay-to-play" youth volleyball makes it less and less likely that a girl with minimal experience will be able to play at her high school.
"And that's what happened in basketball," she said."
That seems to suggest that as volleyball becomes more established and spots on teams become more competitive, the popularity drops. |
I would agree, as club volleyball, for whatever reason, is much more expensive than club basketball, and club volleyball coaches insist that girls play year round and not play basketball in high school -- thus making more money for the club volleyball coaches.
But the increased difficulty of making teams will probably shift more girls to lacrosse (which doesn't allow checking in the girls' game) as they seek varsity sports credentials for their college apps.
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