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Should gender self-identity be "sex" for Title IX |
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Total Votes : 23 |
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6368 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 02/14/17 6:57 pm ::: |
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OK, I've gone back and read it (the thread) with a different perspective (thanks, Glenn and Frozen).
It all comes down to what you mean by "self-identify". The NCAA had defined that for competition, but your question, Glenn, has to do with if they hadn't defined it? Correct me if I'm wrong.
Then in your scenario, "self-identify" could mean nothing more than saying they're a different gender, and if a bunch of men just "said" that they were women and nothing else (pretending that that is what it meant by "self-identify") and they filled the roster of one school's women's basketball team would they be compliant with Title IX?
The question is offensive. That's not what's meant by self-identify. So the answer is no. But if transgendered individuals were fake, and it was all made up...well, then the letter you originally reference wouldn't exist, because there wouldn't be a need for it, because it wouldn't be "a thing".
_________________ Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/14/17 7:13 pm ::: |
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Simply to focus the Title IX discussion, I began the topic with the hypothetical scenario of a school with only one men's team and one's women's team, with the women's team being entirely composed of biological males all of whom psychologically self-identify as female. But the same issue would be raised under Title IX if only one player on the women's team had gender dysphoria (to use the current psychiatric term).
However, the issue under Title IX is not hypothetical; it is very real because of the litigation threat in the May 2016 DOE/DOJ letter.
The NCAA may have policies about transgender students participating on sports teams or in bathrooms. The DOE/DOJ letter, however, will trump whatever those policies are. That letter defines transgender students under the most expansive standard of purely psychological self-identification (gender dysphoria) -- no surgery or hormone therapy needed -- and says that schools "must" allow such transgender students to participate in activities (like sports) and have access to facilities (like bath and locker rooms) based on their self-identified gender.
The DOE/DOJ letter is stating a litigation position. It is saying to schools that we, the government, may sue you for discrimination if you don't follow the rules about gender identity in the letter. It is a governmental threat, based on no specific regulatory authority.
I'm trying to point out that the "transgender bathroom issue", under Title IX, is not just about bath or locker rooms; it will logically extend to all sorts of other things than bathrooms, such as sports.
If you agree that gender dysphoric persons should be allowed to choose men's or women's bathrooms based solely on their psychological gender self-identification, then logically you should favor allowing them to choose sports teams on the same basis.
On the other hand, if you disagree that gender dysphoric persons should be allowed to choose men's or women's sports teams based solely on their psychological gender self-identification, then logically you should oppose their choosing bathrooms on the same basis. |
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3516
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Posted: 02/14/17 8:58 pm ::: |
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Several comments...
I don't think the bathroom issue is the same as the basketball issue for the simple reason that bathroom stalls are generally, or at least potentially, in more than adequate supply. There are a finite, currently fifteen, spots available to "women" on a women's basketball team. Giving a spot to a gender-dysphoric transgender player, based partly on the advantages of their greater height/strength/speed, means taking a spot away from a biologic female. This is contrary to the intent of Title IX.
As a more practical matter, is a coach voluntarily going to recruit a gender-dysphoric high school player because of their physical advantages? How is the DOE/DOJ going to force a coach to recruit such players otherwise? The coach can always say their shooting mechanics, passing skills, or footwork weren't satisfactory or they didn't fit into the team's style of play. Will there be quotas or limits on the number of transgender players?
The only way any of this is going to be resolved is with a Supreme Court decision.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6368 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 02/15/17 2:09 pm ::: |
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And I'm saying that you are willfully misinterpreting the phrase "gender identity" and not acknowledging how it plays out in reality in order to make a specious argument, which is the only argument that has allowed this so-called "bathroom" issue to even play out.
The DOJ/DOE will have no cause to prosecute/sue/sanction any school who allows a MTF transgendered student to play on the women's basketball team as long as she is currently "living as a woman", which includes hormones (research shows that the biological advantages disappear in about a year).
This is a step further than bathrooms, where Frozen makes the point about stalls, and indeed most people who listen to reason and have actually educated themselves about the lives of transgendered individuals realize there is no "issue", and those who say there is are just using it as a thin (the thinnest!) of veils to mask their ignorance (at best) and transphobia, in the hopes that they can codify discrimination and their disgust and misunderstanding into the law.
Frozen may not like it. Other women or women's basketball fans might not "like" it. But I believe much of that stems from not understanding how testosterone (and its suppression) affects human bodies, and misunderstandings about the lives of transgendered student-athletes.
As was apparent when I first posted (though afterwards I took a moment to make sure I hadn't missed your point), this isn't an honest intellectual exercise, because it disregards data, facts and ultimately reality. You're trying to define a psychological process and its biological realities in terms of "what do I want to eat for lunch today", then convince us that the government (DOJ/DOE) will sue if they don't like the answer. It's intellectually dishonest for social and political reasons, couched in a "good ol' legal thought experiment where we parse words".
_________________ Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006 Posts: 6368 Location: Seattle
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Posted: 02/15/17 2:13 pm ::: |
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FrozenLVFan wrote: |
The only way any of this is going to be resolved is with a Supreme Court decision. |
Resolve what? There are already transgendered individuals competing in college basketball. I don't know that any are in D1 schools, but I'd guess it's only a matter of time. The NCAA has put out reasonable guidance about this. The only way this enters litigation is if someone sues to stop a transgendered athlete from competing. Is that what you think will make it to SCOTUS? (not that it's currently in the offing)
_________________ Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014 Posts: 3516
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Posted: 02/15/17 10:27 pm ::: |
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And there are multiple lawsuits threatened over how transgender issues are treated under Title IX. Until one of those works its way through the legal system and to the Court, this issue is going to continue to be debated and interpreted differently in various jurisdictions.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013 Posts: 271
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Posted: 02/16/17 2:26 pm ::: |
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GlennMacGrady wrote: |
If you agree that gender dysphoric persons should be allowed to choose men's or women's bathrooms based solely on their psychological gender self-identification, then logically you should favor allowing them to choose sports teams on the same basis.
On the other hand, if you disagree that gender dysphoric persons should be allowed to choose men's or women's sports teams based solely on their psychological gender self-identification, then logically you should oppose their choosing bathrooms on the same basis. |
Your discussion is very thought provoking and I appreciate you taking the time to flesh out the differing angles.
I fall in the category of someone who believes that gender self identification is the appropriate determination with regard to bathroom usage. In other words, the individual should use the bathroom corresponding to gender to which they identify and laws making it a crime to do otherwise should be changed. However, I do recognize that there is a difference between bathroom choice and participating in collegiate athletics. In collegiate athletics, the primary purpose of the NCAA is to administer rules and regulations that are intended to provide a balanced field of play. To be frank, I think its absolutely ridiculous to charge the NCAA with ensuring that everyone that claims to self identify as a female that was born a male is sincere in their choice, yet that will inevitably be an issue at some point in time if there is a team of male athletes that self identify as females. The athletes are not being deprived the opportunity to play sports, which was the initial concern of Title IX. They have every opportunity to play if they can make the team. They are simply, like everyone else, told that they may try out for the team that corresponds to their gender at birth. That isn't unfair. I couldn't have made the team college, but that doesn't mean that I was deprived of an opportunity.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11155
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Posted: 02/16/17 5:18 pm ::: |
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So males are generally, it is said, about 15% bigger and 15% stronger than females.
Presumably, a male-to-female transgender stays the same height, and I would guess retains a substantial portion of the weight differential (though correct me if I'm wrong).
But as with steroids, which allows users to retain about 20% of the strength they gain even after they get off the drug, do male-to-female transgenders retain some of the strength and explosiveness advantage that males have?
And if so, how much?
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15747 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 02/17/17 1:59 am ::: |
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ClayK wrote: |
So males are generally, it is said, about 15% bigger and 15% stronger than females.
1. Presumably, a male-to-female transgender stays the same height, and I would guess retains a substantial portion of the weight differential (though correct me if I'm wrong).
2. But as with steroids, which allows users to retain about 20% of the strength they gain even after they get off the drug, do male-to-female transgenders retain some of the strength and explosiveness advantage that males have?
And if so, how much? |
1. Height? Yes. Weight? Depends upon factors such as the person's BMI, how they train for their sport, etc. For example, lack of testosterone will cause a more female dispersion of fat that the (former) male was not counting on (i.e., buttocks may become fattier, etc.) but SO MUCH depends upon the individual.
2. Remember Renee Richards? Transexual (MTF) who fought to play at the US Open Tennis championship in the 70s? I remember her saying that she didn't have nearly the strength and capability to hit strokes like she did as a guy. I believe she lost her first round match that year.
BUT: She also is quoted as saying,“Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards#Tennis_career_after_transitioning
Even the participants themselves can't always predict what their outcomes will be.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9635
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/22/17 11:36 pm ::: |
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The Trump administration today rescinded the Obama DOE/DOJ letters concerning the meaning of "sex" under Title IX as it may relate to gender identity. The Trump DOE/DOJ letter is very short and readable.
This really doesn't change anything because last summer a federal judge issued a nationwide injunction against the Obama letter as being an illegal federal overreach. (There has been such a such an avalanche of litigation over so many Obama executive orders that I never noticed this particular injunction until today's news, or I would have mentioned it earlier in the thread.)
The Trump letter is consistent with the political philosophy of federalism and states rights -- meaning, that states or local school districts will decide school policies such as access to bathrooms. |
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Ex-Ref
Joined: 04 Oct 2009 Posts: 8950
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Posted: 02/26/17 8:52 am ::: |
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Beggs completed an undefeated season by winning a controversial title in an event clouded by criticism from those who believe the testosterone he’s taking as he transitions from female to male created an unfair advantage.
His family has said he would rather be wrestling boys, but state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates. So the junior from Euless Trinity beat Chelsea Sanchez 12-2 in the 110-pound weight class to improve to 56-0 and earn the championship. |
http://wishtv.com/2017/02/26/transgender-boy-wins-controversial-girls-state-title/
_________________ "Women are judged on their success, men on their potential. It’s time we started believing in the potential of women." —Muffet McGraw
“Thank you for showing the fellas that you've got more balls than them,” Haley said, to cheers from the crowd.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
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Posted: 02/26/17 11:16 am ::: |
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Ex-Ref wrote: |
Quote: |
Beggs completed an undefeated season by winning a controversial title in an event clouded by criticism from those who believe the testosterone he’s taking as he transitions from female to male created an unfair advantage.
His family has said he would rather be wrestling boys, but state policy calls for students to wrestle against the gender listed on their birth certificates. So the junior from Euless Trinity beat Chelsea Sanchez 12-2 in the 110-pound weight class to improve to 56-0 and earn the championship. |
http://wishtv.com/2017/02/26/transgender-boy-wins-controversial-girls-state-title/ |
I keep repeating in this thread, and I should make the same point in the thread on Area 51, that the Obama and Trump policy letters are about students with a purely psychological gender identity issue, a psychiatric disorder known as gender dysphoria. The policy letters are not about surgically or hormonally transgender students. A person solely with gender dysphoria hasn't "transed" out of birth gender in any biological sense. The wrestler apparently is in the process of doing so by taking hormonal treatments. |
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1830 Location: Colorado
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Posted: 03/04/17 6:18 pm ::: |
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https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athletes-can-take-part-in-olympics-without-surgery
If only these dupes had access to some of the brilliant minds that chimed in here. I think some of y'all vastly underestimate the quality of world-class genetic female athletes. And I would not hold my breath for these imaginary high-quality genetic male athletes to undergo hormone replacement therapy/GRS, etc. just to get a competitive edge competing as a woman. See Rene Richards and how she just dominated women's tennis ...
Biology is far from immutable. It's also a very low form of evolution compared to intellect. Gender is between our ears, not our legs. Sex is something I enjoy very much.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15747 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Posted: 03/04/17 10:54 pm ::: |
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KatValeska wrote: |
See Rene Richards and how she just dominated women's tennis ... |
Ummm...but she DIDN'T, remember?
Howee wrote: |
2. Remember Renee Richards? Transexual (MTF) who fought to play at the US Open Tennis championship in the 70s? I remember her saying that she didn't have nearly the strength and capability to hit strokes like she did as a guy. I believe she lost her first round match that year.
BUT: She also is quoted as saying,“Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards#Tennis_career_after_transitioning
Even the participants themselves can't always predict what their outcomes will be. |
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1830 Location: Colorado
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Posted: 03/05/17 12:16 am ::: |
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Howee wrote: |
KatValeska wrote: |
See Rene Richards and how she just dominated women's tennis ... |
Ummm...but she DIDN'T, remember?
Howee wrote: |
2. Remember Renee Richards? Transexual (MTF) who fought to play at the US Open Tennis championship in the 70s? I remember her saying that she didn't have nearly the strength and capability to hit strokes like she did as a guy. I believe she lost her first round match that year.
BUT: She also is quoted as saying,“Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I’d had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I’ve reconsidered my opinion"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9e_Richards#Tennis_career_after_transitioning
Even the participants themselves can't always predict what their outcomes will be. |
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I had intended sarcasm - which gets lost easily in print - as I remembered from her bio that after playing doubles with Richards, Billy Jean King was quoted as stating "they were worried about that Jewish Princess?" The science I've read suggested that a transgender woman who undergoes two years of post-operative hormone replacement will experience muscle development at an identical rate of the average genetic women. Then the trans-woman has a slight disadvantage having to carry a larger, heavier bone structure with that same muscle mass.
I think Rene is overconfident about the certainty of superiority had she started at 22. Also think she might have been trying to placate the growing wave of anti-trans sentiment that was fairly ubiquitous in the 70's and 80"s among feminists with the recanting you quote.
I could have worded the entire previous post better. I apologize.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010 Posts: 9635
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Posted: 03/05/17 1:18 am ::: |
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Renee Richards was 43 years old when she began playing professional women's tennis and made it to #20 ranking in 1979 at age 45. That is an age not only well past peak, but past retirement age for the vast majority of players. That to me demonstrates a tremendous advantage a transexual has.
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KatValeska
Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1830 Location: Colorado
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Posted: 03/05/17 10:14 am ::: |
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tfan wrote: |
Renee Richards was 43 years old when she began playing professional women's tennis and made it to #20 ranking in 1979 at age 45. That is an age not only well past peak, but past retirement age for the vast majority of players. That to me demonstrates a tremendous advantage a transexual has. |
Is it possible that those scraps of information indicate exactly what you want them to demonstrate? And if the transgender athlete started hormone replacement at puberty?
My final thoughts on this thread are that the initial post wasn't worth replying to in and of itself. As for transgender girls or women competing against genetic females? I think utilizing all of the science available is the best means of determining how to go forward.
I don't think we will ever see transgender women dominating any female sport. Should it happen? Then correct it. I don't feel that this thread was initiated to prevent any existing or even future problem. I do, however, respect that poster and the value of the ideas being produced.
Most importantly, could this thread be moved to Area 51 where it actually belonged from the start? It's March.
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