RebKell's Junkie Boards

[GlennMacGrady]

I'll flesh out this question by using a hypothetical example.

Title IX prohibits schools from discriminating or excluding or denying participation in activities "on the basis of sex".

Mono University only has two sports, men's and women's basketball. The men's team are all biological males who self-identify as males. The women's team are all biological males in chromosomes and anatomy -- like Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner -- but they all self-identify as females.

Is Mono University in compliance with Title IX or should it be?

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http://www.youtube.com/MagicBusBasketball

[linkster]

[summertime blues]

I think it depends on whether the person is taking steps (which need not be surgical) to maintain the gender with which they identify.

_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom

[myrtle]

There is no simple solution. fact: Males have a physical advantage in sports over women. They can jump higher, run faster, lift more weight, etc...Think of the implications in a sport such as track and field. What if someone like Michael Jordan or LeBron said they identify as female. Would you let them play on a woman's team? Therefore I think if they are stuck in a male body but identify as female, they would still need to compete against other males. Same thing for females who identify as male. Once they start doing operations/hormone replacement therapy etc... the lines become even less clear.

_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman

[Howee]

[PlayBally'all]

We are stretching Title IX far beyond the intent of the the statute in many ways. Title IX should be applied as it was meant to be, which was to provide equitable opportunities for the under represented gender, usually female athletes, to participate in sports.

The use of Title IX to police criminal behavior on campuses and the use of the statute by plaintiff's attorneys to bring civil lawsuits due to the criminal acts of individual students, many of which have never been charged with actual crimes, could be the downfall of the statute as a whole if nothing is done to curtail the abuse.

As for this question specifically, I don't believe that we can use Title IX to police issues of sexual identity. To be blunt, regardless of what sex someone identifies themselves as, with few exceptions, everyone is biologically either male or female at birth. There has to be a constant if we are to apply anything across the board. Basically, if someone is male based on their anatomy, they should not be playing on the women's team. Title IX was not designed to give every single individual the opportunity to play collegiate sports. It was designed to provide equal opportunities by way of scholarships.

[Queenie]

[PlayBally'all]

[Howee]

[elsie]

it will completely destroy the WHOLE of womens sports if it is allowed to have biologically dna backed males play womens sports...


in an effort to be "inclusive" the entire female population will be penalized because some males deem themselves to be women and will take over every single womans sport.....

you can not change your dna.....period....

[PlayBally'all]

[Howee]

[summertime blues]

Let me back Howee up here. Intersex births are not as uncommon or infrequent as all that. They occur as frequently as approximately one in 1700 births. Think about that for a minute....then think about the number of babies born just in this country alone every day!

For some context, I worked for awhile in a neonatal unit in a hospital where we had, at that time, around 900-1000 births per year. During the year I worked there, we had one newborn who was definitely intersex and one other who was most likely (the second one I didn't hear about definitely because it happened just before I left there). We had 943 births that year, 938 of them live births.

So Caster Semenya is not that rare. She is only "rare" because she happened to participate in sport and be that good. There is also Indian sprinter Dutee Chand, who wasn't that good, and there are thousands, perhaps millions of others all over the globe, some who participate in sport and many who don't. Lady Colin Campbell (you can look her up) is another example. She didn't play sports much, but she did advocate for intersex people. It is a very complex subject and one where people cannot be easily categorized.

_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom

[GlennMacGrady]

The hypothetical case in the OP was intended to focus the debate in two ways.

1. The players on the women's team are not biologically "intersex" in terms of chromosomes, anatomy or hormones. They are all fully male in all these characteristics (as I understand Jenner to be). They claim to be eligible to play on the women's team under Title IX solely because the self-identify psychologically as females.

2. The reason Mono U. is posited to have only two teams is because if the men's team are indeed all of the male "sex", then the other team must be all of the female "sex" in order to have equitable sports participation balance at Mono .

So, again, the topic question whether a purely psychological self-identification as female should qualify a player as being of the female "sex" for purposes of implementing that language in Title IX?

You are the school Title IX compliance officers, the NCAA Title IX administrators, and the federal Title IX judges who will make this determination -- and have all power to decide on this matter.

Carry on.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/MagicBusBasketball

[Howee]

I dunno. Maybe this kind of hypothetical makes for fun law school debates. But it is simply spurious. Aint. Never. Gonna. Happen. And it really does try to make the larger concern here (gender identity) an All/Nothing, On/Off, toggle-switch kind of argument, when it cannot be that simple.

Title IX was instituted for all the right reasons, imo, and has served a grand purpose. That its premise may be stretched in the future by increased understanding of gender identity is probably a good and necessary thing.

_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"

[PlayBally'all]

[FrozenLVFan]

[GlennMacGrady]

[PlayBally'all]

[GlennMacGrady]

You could be right about the new administration, though Trump personally doesn't seem to care about the transgender bathroom issue. Maybe he would about the football or golf teams.

_________________
http://www.youtube.com/MagicBusBasketball

[norwester]

Doesn't this post ignore that there are transgender athletes who are taking hormones and living as their gender of identity participating in the sports of their identity within the NCAA today?

There are real physical differences between men and women, but a lot of those differences (particularly as they pertain to sports competition) are chemical in nature. Reading articles from the points of view of transgender individuals, MTF are surprised by how much less strength they have in the absence of prior levels of testosterone.

Men "becoming" women for the purposes of sport is not the essence of being a transgendered individual. There are so many psychological, etc. effects that go along with it, that there isn't even a legal thought exercise here.

But if you did have a university where the women's basketball team happened to be made up of all MTF transgendered individuals who had been living as women and taking hormones for (I'm not sure what the NCAA guideline is, but maybe a year?) the requisite amount of time before competing for those slots, that the school would be in compliance.

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Don't you know the plural of "anecdote" is "data"?

[norwester]

NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes

[FrozenLVFan]

I believe the essence of the question was males who solely self-identify as females and not those who have already embarked on any medical treatment to develop any female physical characteristics.

[GlennMacGrady]

[norwester]