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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 01/03/17 10:47 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
I think your last point nails it. I think it's mostly a question of expectations.
There are and have been plenty of tall centers who are far worse than she is.
But we were told she was a superstar. And she still gets hyped like a superstar.
She's not at all horrible in absolute terms. But she has often been pretty horrible relative to the expectations and hype that surrounds her. And after four years there are still people making excuses for her about how supposedly she's just a "late bloomer.". At this rate, she should fulfill her promise about the same time she becomes eligible for Medicare. When you're the top recruit in the country you're supposed to be ready to play in year one, not in year five or six or seven.
And I suspect much of her problem in terms of her chronically being out of position and poor footwork is the result of inadequate coaching.
If she had been ranked 99 by Hoopgurlz, no one would be calling her a bust. Indeed no one would be talking about her at all.
But that's the plight of top recruits, top draft choices, and everybody else that fails to meet the promise and expectations. If you're drafted in the 7th round of the NFL draft and are mediocre, there's no disappointment; you might even have a long career making good money as a league minimum backup. If you're the top pick in the draft and get a big bonus contract and then are mediocre, you'll be out the league in a year and forever labeled a bust. It's just the way it is.
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Shmermerer1
Joined: 04 Aug 2014
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| Posted: 01/04/17 9:00 am ::: |
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| My question would be who is really that much better than her in that class? I would say she's definitely top 4.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 01/04/17 12:01 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Compared to UConn's Natalie Butler, Russell is a speed demon. |
But then again, Butler never masqueraded as the best high school basketball player in the country. |
Indeed. |
Gentlemen (?), do you really find it edifying to be so denigrating to a girl who "masqueraded" as nothing? She didn't get to demand or even decide her HS ranking. Meanwhile, she's overcome a lot of adversity. And, if I'd have to bet, she'd probably kick either of your azzes 1-on-1  |
my comment was not to suggest that Russell ever claimed to be the #1 recruit, or acts full of herself as does, say, DeShields.
it was to agree w/ Art's comment that she certainly hasn't proven to be worthy of that rank. She isn't wrong; the raters were mistaken.
As are yourself and stb.  |
Sooo....you DO think you could take her, 1 on 1??  
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"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
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ArtBest23
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 01/04/17 3:53 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill.
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dtbtbtb
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 01/04/17 4:44 pm ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none...
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7860
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/04/17 4:51 pm ::: |
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| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 01/04/17 5:58 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team. |
Of course you ignore that she was Naismith POY, first team AA,and Final Four MOP, but those didn't fit whatever the point was you were failing to make.
Individual honors, team achievements, it's all part of a big picture.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7860
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/04/17 7:41 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team. |
Of course you ignore that she was Naismith POY, first team AA,and Final Four MOP, but those didn't fit whatever the point was you were failing to make.
Individual honors, team achievements, it's all part of a big picture. |
Yes, and with all those honors, she stlll won that NC *ALL BY HERSELF* 
Yeah, right. All by herself, against the whole other team. Sure, Art. And she would be the first to tell you that SHE DID NOT. She would give all credit to her teammates, as I seem to remember she did. .
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 01/04/17 9:38 pm ::: |
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|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team. |
Of course you ignore that she was Naismith POY, first team AA,and Final Four MOP, but those didn't fit whatever the point was you were failing to make.
Individual honors, team achievements, it's all part of a big picture. |
Yes, and with all those honors, she stlll won that NC *ALL BY HERSELF*
Yeah, right. All by herself, against the whole other team. Sure, Art. And she would be the first to tell you that SHE DID NOT. She would give all credit to her teammates, as I seem to remember she did. . |
Is there a point to your rant?
Why do you think people point out when great players need to win a championship to fill out their legacy? Because it's part of the big picture. It's an important part of the overall resume.
I suspect you perfectly well know that and just want to argue for some inexplicable reason. Well, have fun, because I'm done wasting my time on this pointless exchange.
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Ladyvol777
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 248
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| Posted: 01/04/17 11:10 pm ::: |
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| As a Tennessee Lady Vol fan, I very happy to have Mercedes Russell on our team. I'm hoping she comes back next year. We don't have a great guard to feed her the ball. I sure wish Te'a Cooper was playing.
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Jlcarter
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
Posts: 461
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| Posted: 01/04/17 11:57 pm ::: |
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| <iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LKCU-o_AMQw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12553
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 01/05/17 12:14 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team. |
Of course you ignore that she was Naismith POY, first team AA,and Final Four MOP, but those didn't fit whatever the point was you were failing to make.
Individual honors, team achievements, it's all part of a big picture. |
Yes, and with all those honors, she stlll won that NC *ALL BY HERSELF*
Yeah, right. All by herself, against the whole other team. Sure, Art. And she would be the first to tell you that SHE DID NOT. She would give all credit to her teammates, as I seem to remember she did. . |
Is there a point to your rant?
Why do you think people point out when great players need to win a championship to fill out their legacy? Because it's part of the big picture. It's an important part of the overall resume.
I suspect you perfectly well know that and just want to argue for some inexplicable reason. Well, have fun, because I'm done wasting my time on this pointless exchange. |
The most glaring difference in the two is ruths defense was way better. If Mercedes Russell Played WCBB from 1999-2001 I think she would be a serious candidate for all those awards ruth won during her time at ND.
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3-Time WNBA Champion-3-Time National Champion-4-Time Olympic Champion....And Yes DT "We Got Confeti" lol
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7860
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/05/17 11:08 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. She's not terrible but I guess our expectations were set too high to begin with. |
the same could be said for Ruth Riley . Yes she Won National Players of the Year and 1 title , but the talent back then vs now is totally different. Ruth Had all the momentum going into the W and ended her career an average player with the exception of the Finals vs LA. She should have dominated more than she did in the W . I like to compare the 2 because they both have a similar skillset ruth maybe a bit more reliable with the face up game but not much a big difference in skill. |
As you mention, Ruth R. was player of the year in college and won a NC. The chances of Russell to achieve any of those is nil to none... |
I love it when somebody says "so-and-so won a NC' like they did it all by themselves. Uh.....no. There was a TEAM. Also a coach, but primarily a team. |
Of course you ignore that she was Naismith POY, first team AA,and Final Four MOP, but those didn't fit whatever the point was you were failing to make.
Individual honors, team achievements, it's all part of a big picture. |
Yes, and with all those honors, she stlll won that NC *ALL BY HERSELF*
Yeah, right. All by herself, against the whole other team. Sure, Art. And she would be the first to tell you that SHE DID NOT. She would give all credit to her teammates, as I seem to remember she did. . |
Is there a point to your rant?
Why do you think people point out when great players need to win a championship to fill out their legacy? Because it's part of the big picture. It's an important part of the overall resume.
I suspect you perfectly well know that and just want to argue for some inexplicable reason. Well, have fun, because I'm done wasting my time on this pointless exchange. |
If you don't get it, you are far more dense even than I thought.
Bye, Felicia.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 01/05/17 12:34 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Compared to UConn's Natalie Butler, Russell is a speed demon. |
But then again, Butler never masqueraded as the best high school basketball player in the country. |
Indeed. |
Gentlemen (?), do you really find it edifying to be so denigrating to a girl who "masqueraded" as nothing? She didn't get to demand or even decide her HS ranking. Meanwhile, she's overcome a lot of adversity. And, if I'd have to bet, she'd probably kick either of your azzes 1-on-1 |
my comment was not to suggest that Russell ever claimed to be the #1 recruit, or acts full of herself as does, say, DeShields.
it was to agree w/ Art's comment that she certainly hasn't proven to be worthy of that rank. She isn't wrong; the raters were mistaken.
As are yourself and stb. |
Sooo....you DO think you could take her, 1 on 1?? |
hell yes, even at my advanced age.
if my mid-range jumper is on, she's toast. on offense, she'd never get closer to the hoop than 10 ft. before I made a steal.
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myrtle
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Howee
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myrtle
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 01/05/17 3:57 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Who's a better 6-6 center than Russell? |
That's the point. At 6-6 and with her frame, she should be more dominant than she is. |
I get the sense of your general point, but when I consider specifics I come to an analytical cul de sac.
If you are hypothesizing that 6-6 players with her frame should (always? usually?) play better than Russell at her age, that could be nothing more than an idealized hope, which is a non-empirical and arguably unfair analytical critique of Russell.
If you are saying that history does empirically show us that 6-6 players with her frame (always? usually?) have in fact played better than Russell does at her age, I would challenge you to name those players.
I can name 6-8 centers who were better than Russell -- e.g., Griner, Cambage, Stepanova -- but, obviously, they are not 6-6.
I can name several centers in the tall 6-3 to short 6-5 range who were better than Russell -- Charles, Griffith, Riley, Parker (not really a center), Jackson (not really a center), Dolson.
But when it comes to 6-6 (and taller) college centers, there really aren't that many, and most I can recall have been sort of awkward and spastic. The best I can think of are Sylvia Fowles and Lisa Leslie, who I consider to be the best center of all time. Leslie's athleticism, multiple skills, shooting touch, and basketball IQ were, to me, very anomalous.
I don't think it's fair to compare Russell to some unnamed hypothetical 6-6 frame ideal.
When Russell is compared to actual past and current 6-6 centers -- those poor players who have strutted and fretted their lives upon the D1 stage, and then are heard no more -- Macbeth could rightly consider her significantly above average. |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 01/05/17 4:24 pm ::: |
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| I agree that many 6-6 sticks have come and gone. But they weren't ranked #1 in their class. (and she isn't a stick) Two other current 6-6's that come to mind are Kalani Brown and Azura Stevens. I would personally choose either of them over Russell for my team. I already said Russell isn't terrible. And I would actually be happy to have her on my team, especially if I couldn't get the other two just mentioned. And I would put her about on par with Lanay Montgomery. She clearly hasn't lived up to being a #1. There are others who haven't lived up to that ranking either. [shrug] She will need to improve to even stick on a W roster. Will she? Maybe.
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if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 01/05/17 5:47 pm ::: |
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| Russell has been terrible, at least partly due to the problems with her feet, and she has appeared very unworthy of the #1 HS ranking. However, she's rapidly improving this year. I fully expect her to be an AA next year (barring other injuries). I don't think it's unusual for it to take longer for a post to develop compared to players at other positions. [Insert aspersions about Tenn's post coach here.]
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Heisenberg
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| Posted: 01/05/17 6:22 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
| I agree that many 6-6 sticks have come and gone. But they weren't ranked #1 in their class. (and she isn't a stick) Two other current 6-6's that come to mind are Kalani Brown and Azura Stevens. I would personally choose either of them over Russell for my team. I already said Russell isn't terrible. And I would actually be happy to have her on my team, especially if I couldn't get the other two just mentioned. And I would put her about on par with Lanay Montgomery. She clearly hasn't lived up to being a #1. There are others who haven't lived up to that ranking either. [shrug] She will need to improve to even stick on a W roster. Will she? Maybe. |
I selected you to quote only because you so pithily stated one of the arguments against Russell: she "should be" more dominant at 6-6. I simply don't know how "dominant" any 6-6 player "should be". Players are what they are.
However, another element is now added to the "should be" argument -- namely, that #1's in high school should be more dominant than Russell has been in college.
This may be picking nits, but Stevens was not a center in high school or college, Brown has apparently grown from 6-5 to 6-7 from high school to college, and neither was in Russell's class of 2013.
Putting aside the fact that Russell was rated #1 in 2013 only by one major service, HoopGurlz, and that she's had injuries in college that she didn't have in high school, which of the other HoopGurlz top ten players in 2013, none of whom are taller than 6-2, both (1) should have been ranked ahead of Russell in high school and (2) are playing more dominantly than she is in college?
2. Kaela Davis
3. Diamond DeShields
4. Taya Reimer
5. Linnae Harper
6. Rebecca Greenwell
7. Allisha Gray
8. Jannah Tucker
9. Tyler Scaife
10. Oderah Chidom
This is really a rhetorical question. My point is that Russell was a very significantly better than average 6-6 center in high school, and giving due consideration to her injuries and mediocre coach at Tennessee, is still a significantly better than average 6-6 player in college. Another point I think true is that high school rankers will sometimes give "extra credit" to competent 6-4+ players since they are so rare. |
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myrtle
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/05/17 6:53 pm ::: |
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| Are the very tall high school high ranked posts more likely not to live up to their ranking? I think Ashley Robinson was ranked up with Taurasi in high school. There was another big post, Nina Smith who came out of high school ranked at or near the top and did not match that ranking in college.
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Jlcarter
Joined: 03 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 01/06/17 12:54 pm ::: |
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| Six blocks last night against Vanderbilt.
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