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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 11/29/16 10:20 pm ::: |
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| SCGamecock wrote: |
Some of ya'll are underestimating the "shadow effect" certain programs have...
The reason Walz loves Louisville, Staley loves SC, Mulkey loves Baylor, McGraw loves Notre Dame is because those are essentially "their" programs.... those coaches have put in the blood, sweat and tears to make those programs what they are today... they've essentially made those programs what they are. The same way Pat did for Tennessee, Tara did for Stanford and Geno did for UCONN..
As an SC fan, speaking for Staley.. My freshmen year was the year Dawn came to SC.. we were horrible and probably won like two games in conference that year. Nobody went to WBB games. I remember seeing Staley setting up tables to give away free tickets and swag in the student union, begging people to come to games.
Fast forward a few years, by the time I'd graduated college we were averaging 5,000 fans per home game and we'd already been to the tournament twice.. making it as far as the sweet 16 one year. Dawn built that.
Tennessee is a great program, but whoever coaches there will always be coaching in the shadow of Pat Summitt for better or worse.. you're always going to be compared to her and she will always be revered there. Tennessee is learning this now... Stanford will learn it when Tara leaves and UConn will learn it when Auriemma leave...
So why would Staley, or Walz, or Mulkey, or McGraw leave great programs that they've built with their own hands essentially to coach in the shadows of icons, especially when these coaches aspire to be icons in their own right and at their own institutions... coaching is stressful enough without dealing with the added pressure of comparisons and unrealistic expectations. |
Mulkey or McGraw wouldn't because they're too old to start over.
That is no barrier for Walz or Staley.
You might be surprised.
Lots of coaches leave programs they built for programs they can build even bigger.
And their fans stomp their feet and claim how much they love where they are and would never leave right up to the moment the moving vans pull out of town.
BTW, if your "at their own institutions" claim was at all true, Urban Meyer would still be at Utah, and Tom Herman wouldn't be leaving Houston for Texas. The reality is these coaches have huge egos and it's too much to pass up an opportunity to be a star on the biggest stage possible. Tennessee is a bigger stage in WCBB than Louisville or SCar will likely ever be regardless of any short term success they may have.
Also BTW, every individual is different, and there's no telling how any one of these coaches would weigh the competing considerations or what's most important to them as individuals. Just like anyone else considering changing employers. But experience shows that "they built it and love it here" never seems to create !much of a restraint despite what fans expect. People walk away from that all the time. Coaching at your alma mater can often change the calculus but is irrelevant in the Walz or Staley situations.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 11/29/16 11:51 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 11/29/16 11:12 pm ::: |
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| Why is Jeff Walz a more appealing choice than Brenda Frese? They're close to the same age and she's got a much greater track record of success. Is it just that he seems more attainable?
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myrtle
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| Posted: 11/29/16 11:26 pm ::: |
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| How about Kelly Graves? He already left one program he built and is in the process of building another, but it will never have the prestige of UT.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/29/16 11:32 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Why is Jeff Walz a more appealing choice than Brenda Frese? They're close to the same age and she's got a much greater track record of success. Is it just that he seems more attainable? |
Probably just personal preference on my part, but I think he's a better coach. Although this year's Louisville performance is admittedly putting a dent in that assumption.
I also think Frese, because of personal family reasons, is less likely to uproot her family and move.
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JACKOWACKO
Joined: 20 Sep 2006
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:55 am ::: |
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Kelly Harper Jolly
And hopefully she hires "the 3 mique's" as her assts.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 8:38 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Why is Jeff Walz a more appealing choice than Brenda Frese? They're close to the same age and she's got a much greater track record of success. Is it just that he seems more attainable? |
Probably just personal preference on my part, but I think he's a better coach. Although this year's Louisville performance is admittedly putting a dent in that assumption.
I also think Frese, because of personal family reasons, is less likely to uproot her family and move. |
Walz has small children as well.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/30/16 10:36 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Why is Jeff Walz a more appealing choice than Brenda Frese? They're close to the same age and she's got a much greater track record of success. Is it just that he seems more attainable? |
Probably just personal preference on my part, but I think he's a better coach. Although this year's Louisville performance is admittedly putting a dent in that assumption.
I also think Frese, because of personal family reasons, is less likely to uproot her family and move. |
Walz has small children as well. |
Do any of them have cancer?
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snzuluz
Joined: 10 Aug 2007
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| Posted: 11/30/16 12:21 pm ::: |
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| Kelly Harper was fired from NCState so not sure she is meant for the big time of basketball...much more a mid-major coach right now.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:15 pm ::: |
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| never mind
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:24 pm ::: |
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| SCGamecock wrote: |
Some of ya'll are underestimating the "shadow effect" certain programs have...
The reason Walz loves Louisville, Staley loves SC, Mulkey loves Baylor, McGraw loves Notre Dame is because those are essentially "their" programs.... those coaches have put in the blood, sweat and tears to make those programs what they are today... they've essentially made those programs what they are. The same way Pat did for Tennessee, Tara did for Stanford and Geno did for UCONN..
As an SC fan, speaking for Staley.. My freshmen year was the year Dawn came to SC.. we were horrible and probably won like two games in conference that year. Nobody went to WBB games. I remember seeing Staley setting up tables to give away free tickets and swag in the student union, begging people to come to games.
Fast forward a few years, by the time I'd graduated college we were averaging 5,000 fans per home game and we'd already been to the tournament twice.. making it as far as the sweet 16 one year. Dawn built that.
Tennessee is a great program, but whoever coaches there will always be coaching in the shadow of Pat Summitt for better or worse.. you're always going to be compared to her and she will always be revered there. Tennessee is learning this now... Stanford will learn it when Tara leaves and UConn will learn it when Auriemma leave...
So why would Staley, or Walz, or Mulkey, or McGraw leave great programs that they've built with their own hands essentially to coach in the shadows of icons, especially when these coaches aspire to be icons in their own right and at their own institutions... coaching is stressful enough without dealing with the added pressure of comparisons and unrealistic expectations. |
^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS!!!!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A thousand times THIS!
I remember just how godawful SC was back in the day. A sure win for anyone. That was the team that once had 8 of 13 players from various foreign countries, none English speaking, and I observed to my friend with whom I was sitting during one Tennessee-SC game that SC was not communicating well. She replied, "Well, that's not surprising, none of them speak the same language!" Dawn has done a great job at SC and I think will continue to build the program as she learns more. In another thread there were comments on Dawn's seeming quiet demeanor at the Olympics. I think she was watching and learning from the best.
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summertime blues
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:25 pm ::: |
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| duplicate, sorry
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:28 pm ::: |
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| snzuluz wrote: |
| Kelly Harper was fired from NCState so not sure she is meant for the big time of basketball...much more a mid-major coach right now. |
That was earlier in her career and as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think she was ready for the big time at that point. One learns and grows. It has been some years.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
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summertime blues
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| Posted: 11/30/16 1:29 pm ::: |
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| JACKOWACKO wrote: |
Kelly Harper Jolly
And hopefully she hires "the 3 mique's" as her assts. |
Only Randall has shown any interest in coaching, and she has not done well as a HC. She is currently recruiting coordinator at Wright State.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 4:34 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
You might be surprised.
Lots of coaches leave programs they built for programs they can build even bigger. |
And there is always the cautionary tale of someone like Gail Goestenkors, who built Duke into a powerhouse and a perennial Final Four contender (with four FFs), only to take Texas (which had not made the tournament in the two years before she got there, but is a longtime name and storied program) to first/second round NCAA losses. She did not and could not replicate what she did at Duke.
And McCallie, who is in her 10th year at Duke, has not come close to the success that Goestenkors had in her last decade at the school. Hired to lead Duke to the national title - the only thing Goestenkors did not accomplish - McCallie has not made a Final Four, despite multiple top-rated recruiting classes and more McDonald's All-Americans in her tenure than any other coach in the country.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/30/16 4:55 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
You might be surprised.
Lots of coaches leave programs they built for programs they can build even bigger. |
And there is always the cautionary tale of someone like Gail Goestenkors, who built Duke into a powerhouse and a perennial Final Four contender (with four FFs), only to take Texas (which had not made the tournament in the two years before she got there, but is a longtime name and storied program) to first/second round NCAA losses. She did not and could not replicate what she did at Duke.
And McCallie, who is in her 10th year at Duke, has not come close to the success that Goestenkors had in her last decade at the school. Hired to lead Duke to the national title - the only thing Goestenkors did not accomplish - McCallie has not made a Final Four, despite multiple top-rated recruiting classes and more McDonald's All-Americans in her tenure than any other coach in the country. |
Hey, I wasn't saying it always worked out. It frequently doesn't. Louisville fans thought they had found their football coach for life in Charlie Strong. They were all sure he was perfectly happy and would never leave. But he couldn't pass up the bigger stage of Texas, and now three years later he's unemployed. Happens all the time. That doesn't mean coaches won't still keep trying.
One, most of them have enough ego to believe they will succeed even if others didn't. Two, most end up being willing to sacrifice the security of a smaller pond to take a chance on being a star in the big lake. Three, regardless of how it turns out, they usually end up making a lot of money.
BTW, from a personal standpoint McCallie certainly hasn't failed. She didn't get fired in two or three years. Regardless of performance, she's had a really nice high paying job at a really prestigious school in the best conference for ten years. Not bad. And there's no sign it's going to end any time soon. I wouldn't call that failure. Charlie Strong would probably have been thrilled to keep his job at Texas for ten years.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 5:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| BTW, from a personal standpoint McCallie certainly hasn't failed. She didn't get fired in two or three years. Regardless of performance, she's had a really nice high paying job at a really prestigious school in the best conference for ten years. Not bad. And there's no sign it's going to end any time soon. I wouldn't call that failure. Charlie Strong would probably have been thrilled to keep his job at Texas for ten years. |
If you look at McCallie's overall numbers at Duke, she is a very successful head coach:
- Four Elite Eight appearances in nine years
- Making the Sweet 16 at least six times in nine years
- Four ACC regular season titles
- Three ACC Tournament titles
- Winning percentage over 79 percent
98 percent of the WCBB world would call this resume highly successful.
If you compare McCallie's 9+ years at Duke against the last decade of the Goestenkors era, McCallie not only falls short, she falls ridiculously behind, when you consider the resources and the program Gail built, the academics of Duke as a sales pitch, and the sheer number of HSAAs she has had at her disposal.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/30/16 5:27 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| BTW, from a personal standpoint McCallie certainly hasn't failed. She didn't get fired in two or three years. Regardless of performance, she's had a really nice high paying job at a really prestigious school in the best conference for ten years. Not bad. And there's no sign it's going to end any time soon. I wouldn't call that failure. Charlie Strong would probably have been thrilled to keep his job at Texas for ten years. |
If you look at McCallie's overall numbers at Duke, she is a very successful head coach:
- Four Elite Eight appearances in nine years
- Making the Sweet 16 at least six times in nine years
- Four ACC regular season titles
- Three ACC Tournament titles
- Winning percentage over 79 percent
98 percent of the WCBB world would call this resume highly successful.
If you compare McCallie's 9+ years at Duke against the last decade of the Goestenkors era, McCallie not only falls short, she falls ridiculously behind, when you consider the resources and the program Gail built, the academics of Duke as a sales pitch, and the sheer number of HSAAs she has had at her disposal. |
Understood. But from her standpoint, if she had to do it all over again, she'd likely make that jump to Duke again in a heartbeat. Why wouldn't she? It's worked out great for her.
The point is, her experience certainly wouldn't be something to deter other coaches from changing jobs.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 6:37 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
You might be surprised.
Lots of coaches leave programs they built for programs they can build even bigger. |
And there is always the cautionary tale of someone like Gail Goestenkors, who built Duke into a powerhouse and a perennial Final Four contender (with four FFs), only to take Texas (which had not made the tournament in the two years before she got there, but is a longtime name and storied program) to first/second round NCAA losses. She did not and could not replicate what she did at Duke.
And McCallie, who is in her 10th year at Duke, has not come close to the success that Goestenkors had in her last decade at the school. Hired to lead Duke to the national title - the only thing Goestenkors did not accomplish - McCallie has not made a Final Four, despite multiple top-rated recruiting classes and more McDonald's All-Americans in her tenure than any other coach in the country. |
Yo could even argue, in terms of tournament success, that McCallie was more successful at Michigan State than Duke. At MSU she made the NCAA finals.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 8:22 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| BTW, from a personal standpoint McCallie certainly hasn't failed. She didn't get fired in two or three years. Regardless of performance, she's had a really nice high paying job at a really prestigious school in the best conference for ten years. Not bad. And there's no sign it's going to end any time soon. I wouldn't call that failure. Charlie Strong would probably have been thrilled to keep his job at Texas for ten years. |
If you look at McCallie's overall numbers at Duke, she is a very successful head coach:
- Four Elite Eight appearances in nine years
- Making the Sweet 16 at least six times in nine years
- Four ACC regular season titles
- Three ACC Tournament titles
- Winning percentage over 79 percent
98 percent of the WCBB world would call this resume highly successful.
If you compare McCallie's 9+ years at Duke against the last decade of the Goestenkors era, McCallie not only falls short, she falls ridiculously behind, when you consider the resources and the program Gail built, the academics of Duke as a sales pitch, and the sheer number of HSAAs she has had at her disposal. |
Understood. But from her standpoint, if she had to do it all over again, she'd likely make that jump to Duke again in a heartbeat. Why wouldn't she? It's worked out great for her.
The point is, her experience certainly wouldn't be something to deter other coaches from changing jobs. |
McCallie would definitely make that jump.
Doing it over, Goestenkors would never have made the jump.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 11/30/16 8:24 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Doing it over, Goestenkors would never have made the jump. |
My impression was that Goestenkors was more of a push than a jump
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/15/16 1:29 pm ::: |
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| Ay Mate wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| Dawn Staley |
Why would Staley leave a great program like SC that she built from the ground up and has players clamouring to play for her to the train wreck that has become Tenn? |
Train wreck is a heck of a stretch. Train wrecks don't come sliding down the tracks with the #1 class in the nation.
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CamrnCrz1974
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| Posted: 12/15/16 5:28 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| Doing it over, Goestenkors would never have made the jump. |
My impression was that Goestenkors was more of a push than a jump |
Not quite right.
Texas made indirect overtures while Duke was still in the NCAAs. After the Sweet 16 upset, they became direct overtures. Goestenkors was listening.
But then Joe Alleva went on record with very negative comments about Goestenkors, demeaning her accomplishments, claiming she did not deserve to make more because she did not have a national title (among other things). That was the push.
Alleva was "pushed out" the next year.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/21/16 4:45 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Not sure why people are so keen to have an alum as the head coach. That has not been a recipe for success at major conference schools. |
That depends on the coach, the sport, and the school. Almost any hire is a roll of the dice. Tennessee women's basketball is different than many programs. Pat Summitt has an enormous coaching tree and it is littered with success. She built a loyal and enthusiastic following that saw packed gyms at a time when many would have thought that was impossible to achieve.
I don't believe that the fact that a coach is an alum or not is the attractive quality. The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. That may or may not be a former player. It may be a former assistant coach or graduate assistant. The fact that the coach was part of the program at a high point suggests to many that he or she knows what it takes to make everything work at that institution.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/21/16 4:51 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| snzuluz wrote: |
| Kelly Harper was fired from NCState so not sure she is meant for the big time of basketball...much more a mid-major coach right now. |
That was earlier in her career and as I stated in an earlier post, I don't think she was ready for the big time at that point. One learns and grows. It has been some years. |
....and NC State is doing no better since her departure. They would have been much better served to keep her and give her more time. A game doesn't go by at Auburn that I don't wish she would have been extended the offer instead of Terri Williams-Flournoy. She came to campus for the interview, but was the runner up to TWF.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/21/16 5:18 pm ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Not sure why people are so keen to have an alum as the head coach. That has not been a recipe for success at major conference schools. |
That depends on the coach, the sport, and the school. Almost any hire is a roll of the dice. Tennessee women's basketball is different than many programs. Pat Summitt has an enormous coaching tree and it is littered with success. She built a loyal and enthusiastic following that saw packed gyms at a time when many would have thought that was impossible to achieve.
I don't believe that the fact that a coach is an alum or not is the attractive quality. The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. That may or may not be a former player. It may be a former assistant coach or graduate assistant. The fact that the coach was part of the program at a high point suggests to many that he or she knows what it takes to make everything work at that institution. |
I'm talking about this sport.
Only one school has won a national championship with an alum as coach: 1988 Louisiana Tech with Leon Barmore, who obviously didn't play WCBB there.
The only team in the current AP top 25 with an alum for a coach is #25 Oregon State. Scott Rueck also didn't play WCBB.
The school connection thing doesn't really hold up either. The top coaches are pretty much all outsiders hired from other schools. The last head coach to win a national championship after being promoted from assistant at the same school was Carolyn Peck at Purdue in 1999, who had been there one season before getting the top job. No one has been an assistant somewhere, left for another school, then come back to be head coach and win a national championship.
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