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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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 Posted: 12/21/16 11:19 pm ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. |
I think that would be a fatuous, naive and voodoo reason for hiring a coach. Having a "positive connection" with some other person's past success does not make someone a great recruiter, teacher of offense, or teacher of defense.
The five qualities every college coach needs in order to build an elite program are: (1) great recruiter, (2) great recruiter, (3) great recruiter, (4) great teacher of offense, (5) great teacher of defense. Those are the qualities that should make a coaching candidate attractive, especially at a school with an elite history. |
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 12/22/16 12:33 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. |
I think that would be a fatuous, naive and voodoo reason for hiring a coach. Having a "positive connection" with some other person's past success does not make someone a great recruiter, teacher of offense, or teacher of defense.
The five qualities every college coach needs in order to build an elite program are: (1) great recruiter, (2) great recruiter, (3) great recruiter, (4) great teacher of offense, (5) great teacher of defense. Those are the qualities that should make a coaching candidate attractive, especially at a school with an elite history. |
I would add that he/she needs to be able to fill in any self 'gaps' with an appropriate assistant coach. Head coach doesn't have to do it all and is even better if she can delegate appropriately.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/22/16 11:10 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. |
I think that would be a fatuous, naive and voodoo reason for hiring a coach. Having a "positive connection" with some other person's past success does not make someone a great recruiter, teacher of offense, or teacher of defense.
The five qualities every college coach needs in order to build an elite program are: (1) great recruiter, (2) great recruiter, (3) great recruiter, (4) great teacher of offense, (5) great teacher of defense. Those are the qualities that should make a coaching candidate attractive, especially at a school with an elite history. |
Agreed. However, if that person also happens to have a connection with the school and the alumni/booster base, that is a positive attribute and not a negative one. Part of the equation is always making your base of supporters happy. You don't have to like it, but that is the way it is and the way it will always be.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/22/16 11:13 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Not sure why people are so keen to have an alum as the head coach. That has not been a recipe for success at major conference schools. |
That depends on the coach, the sport, and the school. Almost any hire is a roll of the dice. Tennessee women's basketball is different than many programs. Pat Summitt has an enormous coaching tree and it is littered with success. She built a loyal and enthusiastic following that saw packed gyms at a time when many would have thought that was impossible to achieve.
I don't believe that the fact that a coach is an alum or not is the attractive quality. The thing that makes a candidate attractive is some sort of positive connection with the school at a time when the program was experiencing great success. That may or may not be a former player. It may be a former assistant coach or graduate assistant. The fact that the coach was part of the program at a high point suggests to many that he or she knows what it takes to make everything work at that institution. |
I'm talking about this sport.
Only one school has won a national championship with an alum as coach: 1988 Louisiana Tech with Leon Barmore, who obviously didn't play WCBB there.
The only team in the current AP top 25 with an alum for a coach is #25 Oregon State. Scott Rueck also didn't play WCBB.
The school connection thing doesn't really hold up either. The top coaches are pretty much all outsiders hired from other schools. The last head coach to win a national championship after being promoted from assistant at the same school was Carolyn Peck at Purdue in 1999, who had been there one season before getting the top job. No one has been an assistant somewhere, left for another school, then come back to be head coach and win a national championship. |
Having that connection shouldn't guarantee someone the job, but it shouldn't be viewed as a negative disqualification either. If a hire inspires optimism in your base of supporters, you are one step closer to the goal.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 12/22/16 1:34 pm ::: |
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PlayBally'all, we are talking specifically about Tennessee, a rather unique program. In the abstract, a historical connection to Tennessee shouldn't be a negative disqualification. But real world decisions are not made in the abstract.
Two things. First, once a historical connection to UTK is put into the mix as a positive qualification, it tends to take on too much weight, especially in the eyes of nostalgic fans. Hence, in the real world of AD decision-making, it may be better to eliminate it as a qualification.
Second, although Summitt's coaching tree may have many branches, who among those coaches has really showed -- objectively -- that they are great recruiters and teachers of offense and defense. I submit: none of them.
Therefore, in the real as opposed to the abstract world, if Tennessee wants an elite coach, they must as a practical matter avoid the Summitt coaching tree.
BTW, I'm one who doesn't think Holly deserves to be or will be fired. So this replacement coach topic is, to me, just an abstract exercise. |
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Ladyvol777
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/23/16 12:43 am ::: |
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Holly will stay till her contract is up, don't seeing Tennessee buying her out.
I love the men coach from Chattanooga Tn. Matt McCall, he is young and a up and coming coach. I know he has a men team but can do women team very easy. Would love to see him come to the Lady Vol's.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/23/16 2:29 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
PlayBally'all, we are talking specifically about Tennessee, a rather unique program. In the abstract, a historical connection to Tennessee shouldn't be a negative disqualification. But real world decisions are not made in the abstract.
Two things. First, once a historical connection to UTK is put into the mix as a positive qualification, it tends to take on too much weight, especially in the eyes of nostalgic fans. Hence, in the real world of AD decision-making, it may be better to eliminate it as a qualification.
Second, although Summitt's coaching tree may have many branches, who among those coaches has really showed -- objectively -- that they are great recruiters and teachers of offense and defense. I submit: none of them.
Therefore, in the real as opposed to the abstract world, if Tennessee wants an elite coach, they must as a practical matter avoid the Summitt coaching tree.
BTW, I'm one who doesn't think Holly deserves to be or will be fired. So this replacement coach topic is, to me, just an abstract exercise. |
I also agree that, in my opinion, Holly doesn't deserve to be fired at this point. I understand this is all in the abstract. I just think its priceless when people not connected to a program assume they have some right to tell a program what should and shouldn't be included in their criteria for hiring their coach. I don't have a connection to Tennessee, other than the fact that they are a member of the SEC and I have several good friends that are boosters involved with their athletic program. I'm an Auburn grad and long time women's basketball season ticket holder. I can say without a doubt that the one thing a large southern fan base has no patience for is being told what they should and shouldn't look for when they hire a coach.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 12/23/16 3:55 pm ::: |
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I would never presume to tell Tenn how to hire its next coach, but as a long-time observer of their basketball program and WCBB in general, it is my opinion that CPS's coaching tree doesn't have anyone qualified to be the next head coach at Tenn.
I'd also disagree that a good men's coach can coach women "very easy." There's an entire area in sports psychology revolving around gender differences in sports, including things like learning styles, interpersonal dynamics and conflict resolution, motivational factors, etc. That jump can be a rude awakening for the unwary.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 12/23/16 4:39 pm ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| I can say without a doubt that the one thing a large southern fan base has no patience for is being told what they should and shouldn't look for when they hire a coach. |
And every person in that fan base is going to have a different opinion about what they should and shouldn't look for in a coach.
Tennessee can do whatever they want. All I'm saying is that hiring alumni to coach at major conference schools has virtually no track record of success and promoting/rehiring assistants has very little.
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Lillian Hidgepork
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
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| Posted: 12/24/16 10:03 am ::: |
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Some of these comments are quite funny. Some of the names being thrown out are even funnier. Ill try to address this in my own way.
1. I think Tennessee basketball used to be great. Everyone can agree on that. When Pat left that left also with her. Memories make it hard for people to let go of what "used to be". There are many many teams that have far more success than Tennessee since Pat left. Many.
2. To get Jeff Walz UT would have to have to dig deeper than they even have X2 to get him to talk to them. I am not sure the Admin loves women basketball like the fans do in Knoxville.
3. I agree the best coaches can "recruit, recruit, recruit. That said Matt Insell, Walz or Staley is your best choices.
4. Taking off of that, Staley and Walz both are at the top. Tennessee is not. Why would realistically think about it. Let me tell you why you think they would. Because you remember Tennessee as the UT of old, not as the mediocre team they have become. Holly cant win with some of the best in the country and her recruiting picks have been less than stellar. Which leads me to the next point.
5. Matt Insell. From looking at this from a common sense stand point he appears to be your best bet to revive your program. However, you will be lucky to beat him this year and after that. He is quietly sitting at Ole Miss building a program. Just beat #25 and it was not even close. Sabrina would not have made it a 10 point game so dont even go there. I think he could be persuaded to come to UT, but better not wait a few years, cause Ole Miss will be ahead of UT then he will laugh at you. Coaches have egos.
6. I think some of you are caught up in the past. You are a good team now. You used to be a great team. Big difference. Like La Tech, Old Dominion, WKU of the 90s you are slowly moving in the wrong direction. Right now you have a memory. Those fade fast.
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PlayBally'all
Joined: 17 Oct 2013
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| Posted: 12/24/16 11:11 am ::: |
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| Lillian Hidgepork wrote: |
Some of these comments are quite funny. Some of the names being thrown out are even funnier. Ill try to address this in my own way.
1. I think Tennessee basketball used to be great. Everyone can agree on that. When Pat left that left also with her. Memories make it hard for people to let go of what "used to be". There are many many teams that have far more success than Tennessee since Pat left. Many.
2. To get Jeff Walz UT would have to have to dig deeper than they even have X2 to get him to talk to them. I am not sure the Admin loves women basketball like the fans do in Knoxville.
3. I agree the best coaches can "recruit, recruit, recruit. That said Matt Insell, Walz or Staley is your best choices.
4. Taking off of that, Staley and Walz both are at the top. Tennessee is not. Why would realistically think about it. Let me tell you why you think they would. Because you remember Tennessee as the UT of old, not as the mediocre team they have become. Holly cant win with some of the best in the country and her recruiting picks have been less than stellar. Which leads me to the next point.
5. Matt Insell. From looking at this from a common sense stand point he appears to be your best bet to revive your program. However, you will be lucky to beat him this year and after that. He is quietly sitting at Ole Miss building a program. Just beat #25 and it was not even close. Sabrina would not have made it a 10 point game so dont even go there. I think he could be persuaded to come to UT, but better not wait a few years, cause Ole Miss will be ahead of UT then he will laugh at you. Coaches have egos.
6. I think some of you are caught up in the past. You are a good team now. You used to be a great team. Big difference. Like La Tech, Old Dominion, WKU of the 90s you are slowly moving in the wrong direction. Right now you have a memory. Those fade fast. |
There is a major factor that separates La Tech and Tennessee. Tennessee is in the SEC. If La Tech was in a major conference with the resources that brings, they would have been able to sustain a level of success after they lost their legendary coach. Tennessee is to women's basketball what, as much as i hate to say it, bama is to football. They will experience ups and downs, but all of the ingredients are there to be great.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/24/16 11:58 am ::: |
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Yes, Matt Insell is good, but he is also in the SEC. I think that possibly getting OUT of the SEC might be a great idea when shopping for the next coach.
Jeff Walz? I have been watching him for several years, and I'm still not convinced. He can recruit, but what he does with what he gets? Not so sure about that. Same with McGuff. I am also not so thrilled with some of McGuff's recruiting practices.
I still think that IF Tennessee wants to improve, they would be best off looking at a coach who is on their way up, not necessarily one who is already there. One who shows that they can recruit *and* make the best of what they get. The best ones I see right now are Raegan Pebley at TCU and Kenny Brooks at VA Tech. I'll give a qualified nod to Sean O'Regan at JMU but not really until I see what he can do with new recruits on his own. He was Kenny's right hand for some years and coaches the same way, but this year's edition of JMU is looking a little shaky at the moment. Also I like Jonathan Tsipis who is at Wisconsin, but they are still looking pretty awful and until I see them improve I don't think I would recommend him.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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bballjunkie
Joined: 12 Aug 2014
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| Posted: 12/24/16 1:01 pm ::: |
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| The recruiting point is huge but the recruitment has to be toward the school which is why IMO GG had a problem in Texas as she wasn't in tune with the feuding AAU programs and she had no IN with any of them.
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Lillian Hidgepork
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 104
Location: Down South
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| Posted: 12/24/16 4:31 pm ::: |
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| PlayBally'all wrote: |
| Lillian Hidgepork wrote: |
Some of these comments are quite funny. Some of the names being thrown out are even funnier. Ill try to address this in my own way.
1. I think Tennessee basketball used to be great. Everyone can agree on that. When Pat left that left also with her. Memories make it hard for people to let go of what "used to be". There are many many teams that have far more success than Tennessee since Pat left. Many.
2. To get Jeff Walz UT would have to have to dig deeper than they even have X2 to get him to talk to them. I am not sure the Admin loves women basketball like the fans do in Knoxville.
3. I agree the best coaches can "recruit, recruit, recruit. That said Matt Insell, Walz or Staley is your best choices.
4. Taking off of that, Staley and Walz both are at the top. Tennessee is not. Why would realistically think about it. Let me tell you why you think they would. Because you remember Tennessee as the UT of old, not as the mediocre team they have become. Holly cant win with some of the best in the country and her recruiting picks have been less than stellar. Which leads me to the next point.
5. Matt Insell. From looking at this from a common sense stand point he appears to be your best bet to revive your program. However, you will be lucky to beat him this year and after that. He is quietly sitting at Ole Miss building a program. Just beat #25 and it was not even close. Sabrina would not have made it a 10 point game so dont even go there. I think he could be persuaded to come to UT, but better not wait a few years, cause Ole Miss will be ahead of UT then he will laugh at you. Coaches have egos.
6. I think some of you are caught up in the past. You are a good team now. You used to be a great team. Big difference. Like La Tech, Old Dominion, WKU of the 90s you are slowly moving in the wrong direction. Right now you have a memory. Those fade fast. |
There is a major factor that separates La Tech and Tennessee. Tennessee is in the SEC. If La Tech was in a major conference with the resources that brings, they would have been able to sustain a level of success after they lost their legendary coach. Tennessee is to women's basketball what, as much as i hate to say it, bama is to football. They will experience ups and downs, but all of the ingredients are there to be great. |
The ingredients are there I agree. But you have to have a baker to make the cake. Right now you have someone who eats fast food. Fast food equates to a over valued program at this point who is fat on tradition but lean on success the past few years. Each year sets you back three. Remember that.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 12/26/16 3:29 am ::: |
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Top Picks:
Tina Thompson
Gail Goestenkoers
Karl Smesko
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/26/16 10:29 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Top Picks:
Tina Thompson
Gail Goestenkoers
Karl Smesko |
Gail doesn't seem to want to go back to coaching, and the other two appear perfectly happy where they are. I still say, pick one who is on their way up and who is doing well where they are with what they get. I was actually very favorably impressed with Troy's coach, Chanda Rigby. She's done an amazing job with that program and may be ready for a step up.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/26/16 10:45 am ::: |
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Summertime, question.
I know about the alum not working factor and all.
But what about Nikki McCray? She doesn't seem to get a lot of buzz but has been by all accounts an important part of Staley's staff.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 12/26/16 1:28 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
Summertime, question.
I know about the alum not working factor and all.
But what about Nikki McCray? She doesn't seem to get a lot of buzz but has been by all accounts an important part of Staley's staff. |
I considered Nikki, but she has no HC experience and seems happy as an AC. Some people prefer that role. I was also looking at more possibilities not only outside the Summitt coaching tree but outside the SEC.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 12/26/16 3:37 pm ::: |
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| I'm guessing TT will be interested in a HC, but not sure when.
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For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 418
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| Posted: 12/26/16 4:01 pm ::: |
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| I don't want to hire an assistant with no head coaching experience after the way the last one worked out.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 12/26/16 5:39 pm ::: |
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| zvyn3 wrote: |
| I don't want to hire an assistant with no head coaching experience after the way the last one worked out. |
The LV assistant who was hired prior to Holly worked out pretty well.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/27/16 12:33 am ::: |
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| zvyn3 wrote: |
| I don't want to hire an assistant with no head coaching experience after the way the last one worked out. |
13 of the last 15 national championships have been won by coaches on their first head coaching assignment
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 12/27/16 9:34 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| zvyn3 wrote: |
| I don't want to hire an assistant with no head coaching experience after the way the last one worked out. |
13 of the last 15 national championships have been won by coaches on their first head coaching assignment |
Very interesting observation.
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Howee
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pilight
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