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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/01/16 8:42 am    ::: AP Poll out Reply Reply with quote

http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-women/d1

Notre Dame #1

UConn #3

Tennessee #13

Oregon State #25



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 11/01/16 8:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

1. Notre Dame
2. Baylor
3. UConn
4. South Carolina
5. Louisville
6. Maryland
7. Ohio State
8. Texas
9. UCLA
10. Mississippi State
11. Stanford
12. Florida State
13. Tennessee
14. Miami
14. Syracuse
16. Oklahoma
17. Washington
18. Arizona State
19. Kentucky
20. Florida
21. DePaul
22. West Virginia
23. Indiana
24. Missouri
25. Oregon State

I feel this is about the best poll I have seen, though I still don't agree with Kentucky being in the Top 20.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/01/16 9:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of the individual voters are predictable, some are rather stunning, starting with Deb Antonelli with a top ten of

Notre Dame
South Carolina
Louisville
Baylor
Maryland
UConn
Ohio St
Texas
Miss St
Florida St

Jen Smith of the Lexington Herald Leader not only has UConn sixth, but has Miss St 7 and Syracuse 8.

Predictably Michele Smith is the single 5th place vote for ND. Only surprise there is that it wasn't lower.

Voepel (predictably) has UConn 1 but also has Kentucky at 14. Fourteen? Really?

http://collegebasketball.ap.org/womens-ap-top-25-preseason-poll

These should raise some eyebrows:. Ademec has UConn 5, Fuller 4, Lobo 2. Geno must have told them to get out there and dampen early expectations.


SDHoops



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PostPosted: 11/02/16 11:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So we're all just gonna pretend that Notre Dame didn't get their rear ends handed to them by Stanford and looked like a JV team once they were figured out? Rolling Eyes A "bad" team for UConn is still a banner team for most!


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/02/16 4:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Preseason polls are bunk, IMNSHO. It's a whole new year. Graduation, freshmen, redshirts, and returnees from injury scramble the picture completely.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/02/16 5:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
Preseason polls are bunk, IMNSHO. It's a whole new year. Graduation, freshmen, redshirts, and returnees from injury scramble the picture completely.


Yeah, there are lots of changes. Which is why this stuff about simply putting teams where they finished last season is lazy nonsense.

But that doesn't make them "bunk". They are a prediction. Presumably an informed prediction. And they do it in every sport. These people on the voting panels are supposed to have more knowledge and expertise than the run-of-the-mill fan and their analysis and predictions can be of some interest to fans.

There is a lot of available information about returning players, losses, new players, coaches, etc. on which sensible predictions can be premised. Yeah, they're predictions, but we all make predictions about various future events every day.

And even rankings of teams midseason are still guesswork. As are the committee's seeds in March. The more data available hopefully the more reasonable the guess, but they are still an exercise in judgment, just like polls in October.

They're only "bunk" when voters don't do their job.


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 11/04/16 5:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, as McGraw said when asked about the preseason #1 ranking "We want to be #1 at the end of the season."


CBiebel



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PostPosted: 11/04/16 5:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
Preseason polls are bunk, IMNSHO. It's a whole new year. Graduation, freshmen, redshirts, and returnees from injury scramble the picture completely.


Yeah, there are lots of changes. Which is why this stuff about simply putting teams where they finished last season is lazy nonsense.

But that doesn't make them "bunk". They are a prediction. Presumably an informed prediction. And they do it in every sport. These people on the voting panels are supposed to have more knowledge and expertise than the run-of-the-mill fan and their analysis and predictions can be of some interest to fans.

There is a lot of available information about returning players, losses, new players, coaches, etc. on which sensible predictions can be premised. Yeah, they're predictions, but we all make predictions about various future events every day.

And even rankings of teams midseason are still guesswork. As are the committee's seeds in March. The more data available hopefully the more reasonable the guess, but they are still an exercise in judgment, just like polls in October.

They're only "bunk" when voters don't do their job.


Three words: Notre Dame Football... Wink

Basically, what I've learned watching this sport and its coverage is this:

Those who cover sports (or many other things in the media) are lazy. They only really listen to half of the info, if that. Their minds are made up regarding various things and whatever reality really is, they don't pay attention.

Before 2001 according to the media, McGraw was an "offensive guru." Then, when she started emphasizing defense, they said that she was a "defensive guru." ND at that time would have many games against top teams where the scores were under 60 points. However, now, once again, she is an "offensive guru."

Another case in point in laziness. Back in 2011-12 during the ND-UConn game Doris Burke decides to accuse a ND player of having done something horrible. She doesn't say what it was, but suggests that McGraw should discipline the team over it. She apparently got the info from Auriemma. Did she ask ND for their side? Apparently not. Did she actually analyze the original story (that a ND player had shouted something nasty into the UConn locker room) based on the situation (would an opposing team's player be able to go outside the other team's locker room and shout something inside given the security and locker room arrangements? Did she try to get the other side by talking to people at ND before that broadcast? I'd guess not. That is hardly an objective view from the media.

Basically. I never expect an impartial view from the media. They always seem to have some kind of bias.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 11/04/16 2:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:

I never expect an impartial view from the media.


Agree. I only expect it on RebKell.
myrtle



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PostPosted: 11/04/16 2:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
CBiebel wrote:

I never expect an impartial view from the media.


Agree. I only expect it on RebKell.


Laughing Laughing Laughing



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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.espn.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/1/week/3/seasontype/2

Notre Dame still #1

UConn up to #2

Mississippi State up to #7

Texas down to #14

Indiana and Missouri out
Michigan State and Gonzaga in



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First place votes split 16-16 between ND and UConn because UConn writer Jim Fuller voted for South Carolina as #1.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...



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Shades



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

AP ranking of mid-majors
1. DePaul 256 pts (or are they like UConn, too good to be considered a mid-major?)
2. Gonzaga 62 pts
3. Marquette 18 pts
4. South Dakota St 12 pts
5. Green Bay 7 pts
6. St Louis 6 pts
7. Western Kentucky 3 pts
8. Boise St 1 pt



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Last edited by Shades on 11/21/16 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...


Look at Ky and Colorado. Colorado wins, Ky still ranked 20, Colorado still unranked.

Tenn loses badly to an unranked PSU that lost by 23 to Drexel, and Tenn is still 17.

Texas is 1-2. They lost to good teams, but didn't look good in either loss. Still #14.

Marquette is undefeated, beat ASU. ASU is ranked, Marquette is not.


myrtle



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 2:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...


so would you put Penn State ahead of Tennessee? And Colorado ahead of Kentucky? How about Marquette ahead of ASU? Just saying that one win over a 'better' team doesn't suddenly make you THE better team. Anyway it's not a science, and it's clearly typically not about an objective snapshot of right now but more a subjective think about how things may turn out in the future. Not saying it's right or wrong, but early in the year there's lot of ups and downs until it more or less sorts itself out.



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If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 3:04 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
ClayK wrote:
The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...


so would you put Penn State ahead of Tennessee? And Colorado ahead of Kentucky? How about Marquette ahead of ASU? Just saying that one win over a 'better' team doesn't suddenly make you THE better team. Anyway it's not a science, and it's clearly typically not about an objective snapshot of right now but more a subjective think about how things may turn out in the future. Not saying it's right or wrong, but early in the year there's lot of ups and downs until it more or less sorts itself out.


Me? I wouldn't swap those things you list, although one or two of those might well turn out to be true.

My biggest issue with the polls is how heavily influenced they always are by name, reputation, and success in previous years. If it was, say, Miss St or Syracuse rather than Tenn that had gotten whipped by PSU, how far would they have fallen?


Phil



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 3:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...


Clay,

You know better than that. This week's poll means what we think at this time of the best teams not who had the best week.

The fact that can Zeiger beat Stanford in a game that wasn't a fluke, means that for a two hour stretch Gonzaga played well enough to beat Stanford. If we set up a best-of-seven between the two teams, it's possible some people would pick Gonzaga but some rational people would pick Stanford. There probably will be fewer picking Stanford then a week ago, but the results of one game does not remotely mean that the loser should be behind the winner in the polls.

If Penn State fan said a 14 point victory over Tennessee means that, not only should they be ranked but well above Tennessee, would you agree with them?

This hundreds of similar examples.

I don't disagree that there's a fair amount of inertia or stickiness but I think a certain amount is fine. In fact when I looked at the list hardly anything jumped out at me as troubling. Maybe Tennessee after beating nobody and then losing to nobody but that's always been the case.

I think Connecticut's a little high and I'd pick South Carolina over Connecticut at the moment but will have more information soon.


linkster



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:


so would you put Penn State ahead of Tennessee? And Colorado ahead of Kentucky? How about Marquette ahead of ASU? Just saying that one win over a 'better' team doesn't suddenly make you THE better team. Anyway it's not a science, and it's clearly typically not about an objective snapshot of right now but more a subjective think about how things may turn out in the future. Not saying it's right or wrong, but early in the year there's lot of ups and downs until it more or less sorts itself out.


I would put PS ahead of Tenn. Not in the top 25 but maybe 30/31? Same with the rest. You have a good point that PS, despite beating Tenn, doesn't rate a top 25 ranking. But there are lots of unbeaten and unranked teams whose fans would celebrate finding their team in the top 25, maybe for the first time, even if it only lasted till they lose. Why not throw them a bone?


ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

As someone who has done rankings for publications for more years than I care to remember, I would say to yes to all -- at this point in the season.

If my team beats your team, and we only play once, I have the better team.

Rule 1: The scoreboard doesn't lie.

But if you've played 10 games and beaten seven ranked teams, and lost only once, you get a break. If I'm 3-5 when I beat you with some bad losses, then I don't move up.

Rule 2: Head-to-head is the trump card, if all else is equal.

Of course, all else is seldom equal, especially as the season moves along. If Gonzaga was 5-2, and Stanford 10-0, and Gonzaga wins, then no, Gonzaga doesn't move up.

But Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford head-to-head on Stanford's home court. So how, at this moment, is Gonzaga behind Stanford in the rankings? Sure, it's very likely that a) down the road Stanford will move back up due to good wins and Gonzaga bad losses; and b) that Stanford would win a best-of-seven series.

But we're not down the road, and we don't play best-of-seven.

Rule 3: A good win can offset a bad loss.

Simple enough -- if you lose to a unranked team but beat a ranked team, they cancel out. But if you haven't beaten a ranked team and lose to an unranked team, then you probably shouldn't be ranked.

Rule 4: Revenge counts

If Stanford turns around and beats Gonzaga at Gonzaga by 20, we know who's better. But unless that happens, we have one result: Gonzaga beat Stanford at Stanford.

Joe Smith used to call this "result nullification." If someone didn't like the result of a particular game, they would nullify it, make it as if it never happened.

Gonzaga beat Stanford on Stanford's home floor. They, right now, have proven themselves to be the better team. You can say "Stanford has better talent," but if so, why did Gonzaga win? Isn't that the object of the game, to win (as opposed to having the more highly rated roster)?

Now Penn State lost to Drexel, so not everything is equal and I wouldn't put Penn State in the rankings. But what has Tennessee done on the floor to deserve to be ranked? Yes, they have more talent, and they are the Lady Vols, but the game is about results, and please point to a 2016-17 result that justifies Tennessee's rankings.

We "think" they're good, and we "know" they'd beat Drexel, but what we think doesn't matter as much to me as what has happened, and until Tennessee actually beats Drexel or Penn State, we don't know they would.



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readyAIMfire53



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 9:08 pm    ::: Re: AP Poll out Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://www.ncaa.com/rankings/basketball-women/d1

Notre Dame #1

UConn #3

Tennessee #13

Oregon State #25


LOL. Duke got a vote. Diehard Duke fan.



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rabidrabbit



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 9:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
AP ranking of mid-majors
1. DePaul 256 pts (or are they like UConn, too good to be considered a mid-major?)
2. Gonzaga 62 pts
3. Marquette 18 pts
4. South Dakota St 12 pts
5. Green Bay 7 pts
6. St Louis 6 pts
7. Western Kentucky 3 pts
8. Boise St 1 pt


DePaul is in the Big East. When has the Big East been considered a mid-major? Same with Marquette.

St. Louis is in the A-10.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 11/21/16 11:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

rabidrabbit wrote:
Shades wrote:
AP ranking of mid-majors
1. DePaul 256 pts (or are they like UConn, too good to be considered a mid-major?)
2. Gonzaga 62 pts
3. Marquette 18 pts
4. South Dakota St 12 pts
5. Green Bay 7 pts
6. St Louis 6 pts
7. Western Kentucky 3 pts
8. Boise St 1 pt


DePaul is in the Big East. When has the Big East been considered a mid-major? Same with Marquette.

St. Louis is in the A-10.


Would you feel better had I said
AP ranking of non-P5 conference teams other than UConn?



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CBiebel



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PostPosted: 11/22/16 7:41 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
The inertia of the polls drives me nuts ...

Gonzaga is unbeaten, and beat Stanford at Stanford. By 5 and led nearly the whole game.

So Gonzaga proved that right now, it is a better team than Stanford. So Stanford is 11 and Gonzaga 25, which makes no sense. Sure, Gonzaga will probably lose to FSU, but this poll is about this week ...


That's why they shouldn't have a poll until a few weeks into the season so that they can get at least some idea of where teams should be.

Of course, that will never happen.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/22/16 9:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

rabidrabbit wrote:
Shades wrote:
AP ranking of mid-majors
1. DePaul 256 pts (or are they like UConn, too good to be considered a mid-major?)
2. Gonzaga 62 pts
3. Marquette 18 pts
4. South Dakota St 12 pts
5. Green Bay 7 pts
6. St Louis 6 pts
7. Western Kentucky 3 pts
8. Boise St 1 pt


DePaul is in the Big East. When has the Big East been considered a mid-major? Same with Marquette.

St. Louis is in the A-10.


Rankings are always mixed and subjective. The Ivy is considered "mid-major" yet Princeton and Harvard have, at different times been squarely in the middle of the "regular" rankings. Many of the schools in the AAC are, by all definitions, at least athletically mid-majors, while BYU is considered a mid-major just because of its conference....and probably shouldn't be. Some of the schools in the Big East (not DePaul or St. John's!) probably fall in the classification of mid-major athletically. It's confusing.



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