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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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 Posted: 10/09/16 11:18 pm ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
I don't understand the outrage about the tax thing.
If the rules say he doesn't need to pay a particular tax, then why should he? Would anyone else pay extra tax than necessary out of the goodness of their heart? Of course not.
If the rules are crap then fix the rules, don't go after the people who are just playing by them. |
It's more than him. It's the whole "fair share" deal. There is a belief that the tax code has been written to the benefit of the very rich and to the detriment of everyone else. If a billionaire isn't paying any money in, then it supports what Clinton is arguing and that there is no need for Trump's lower taxes for the rich/corporations.
Basically you have a bunch of middle class people thinking "I paid more than the billionaire? WTF?"
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Luuuc
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Luuuc
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| Posted: 10/09/16 11:31 pm ::: |
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One positive I hope to see come out of the last few days:
"Locker Room Talk" start getting called for what it really is, as opposed to being normalised.
I have no idea why the existence of a term for something abhorrent is in any way an excuse for it continuing.
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justintyme
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 10/09/16 11:35 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
I don't understand the outrage about the tax thing.
If the rules say he doesn't need to pay a particular tax, then why should he? Would anyone else pay extra tax than necessary out of the goodness of their heart? Of course not.
If the rules are crap then fix the rules, don't go after the people who are just playing by them. |
We don't know if Trump followed the rules because he's refused to release his tax records. |
Yeah that.
I mean, it's gross even if he did follow the rules, but I'd honestly guess he didn't.
I think Hillary will emerge as the winner. Trump didn't explode and got a few shots in, but he also sounded like a rambling idiot most of the time, lied his ass off (which will be fact checked in the next couple of days), tried intimidation tactics with body language, used Bill Clinton's sexual past against his wife, used Bill Clinton's past to pivot from his own mistakes, admitted to not paying taxes, called sexual assault "locker room guy talk" interripted Clinton repeatedly, couldn't construct a sentence, and fought with the moderators.
So yes, better than last time, but...
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/09/16 11:40 pm ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
I don't understand the outrage about the tax thing.
If the rules say he doesn't need to pay a particular tax, then why should he? Would anyone else pay extra tax than necessary out of the goodness of their heart? Of course not.
If the rules are crap then fix the rules, don't go after the people who are just playing by them. |
We don't know if Trump followed the rules because he's refused to release his tax records. |
Yeah that.
I mean, it's gross even if he did follow the rules, but I'd honestly guess he didn't. |
He probably did follow the rules, or his accountant did. It undercuts his position that the tax rates for the wealthy need to be reduced. If the rich aren't paying taxes anyway, why slash their rates?
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tfan
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| Posted: 10/09/16 11:56 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Luuuc wrote: |
I don't understand the outrage about the tax thing.
If the rules say he doesn't need to pay a particular tax, then why should he? Would anyone else pay extra tax than necessary out of the goodness of their heart? Of course not.
If the rules are crap then fix the rules, don't go after the people who are just playing by them. |
We don't know if Trump followed the rules because he's refused to release his tax records. |
If you declare a $916 million dollar loss and then apply it to 18 years of taxes (3 past and 15 forward), I would bet that the IRS does an audit or two.
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tfan
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| Posted: 10/10/16 12:02 am ::: |
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| Trump appeared to me to be describing a "groupie" type situation, not unwanted advances, with regard to "being a star and they LET you do anything".
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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| Posted: 10/10/16 12:08 am ::: |
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Disappointing, in general. As the pundits readily pointed out, nobody gained much of anything, and *we* got NOTHING. Right off the freekin' BAT, question #1 re: appropriate viewing for kids, NEITHER one of them replied directly, but tried to fit policy points into a simple question.
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| There's no substance in these debates. She's clearly more knowledgable, but she can't talk about that because she's gotta defend "You should go to prison" ten times. He just turns it into a shit show. And the more it looks like a shit show, the better it is for him. |
Ya think??  Here's where I'd think she'd have been better coached. Really. When he made those kinds of comments AND she took the bait, I'd just shake my head. Couldn't she, just ONCE, say, "Folks, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response!" and not respond to him. DEMONSTRATE DISDAIN.
Her invocation of Michelle O. (take the high road) was okay, BUT REALLY? When Donald used the "locker room" pitch, she could have said something , ("There were no lockers around Donald") simply to put him on the defensive. AND FERCHRISSAKE!? When is she gonna hear her
husband's name and deeds from Donald and reply with: "Donald, Bill's not running for president!"
And when he sez, "If I was president, you'd be in prison", she should have said, "Yes, and groping women will be legal, right?!". Or when he said, "Lincoln never lied!", she coulda zinged him with, "Yes, and he never bragged about groping women, either!" Invoking the High Road was fine, but she needed to stick the cattle prod to his genitals a bit more to keep him agitated.
Other notes:
Him bringing 4 of Bill's girlfriends was just idiotic. I'm positive THAT would only make more women sympathetic towards Hillary.
There were pathetically few genuine insights shared on either one's significant policies. His insults of Canadian health care is typical of his cluelessness. You'd think both of them would have advisors that would find new ways to re-picture their hackneyed old talking points; her ridiculous defense of the 30 years doing whatever don't need to be rehashed. Give it a new look, baby.
Luuuc, re: the Tax concern, it's much MUCH bigger than the alleged non-payment of federal taxes; that's only one concern about something that, while not illegal, would not be looked upon favorably by the millions of us who DO pay taxes, i.e., The Rich are exempt, the Average Joe is not.
There are concerns that his overall worth is highly exaggerated, which would obviously tarnish his braggadocio, and also there could be revelations of big business dealings with the very China and Russia, for example, that he criticizes others about. His bullshit re: "I'm being audited" isn't enough, as tax experts have said that's not an obstacle: the mere fact that he's not produced data on this topic is a major red flag. His delaying of this almost guarantees there's a HUGE secret he's afraid to reveal that will not reflect well on him.
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justintyme
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| Posted: 10/10/16 12:13 am ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| Trump appeared to me to be describing a "groupie" type situation, not unwanted advances, with regard to "being a star and they LET you do anything". |
No. He described sexual assault.
The attitude he described is at the heart of just about every case of date rape out there. There is an assumption of "wanting it" of them "letting" him do it because they didn't stop him.
"I don't even wait."
And it is consistent with the complaints that have been made the entire time of things he has done to women. Unwanted kissing, running hands up thighs and under skirts. Sexual assault.
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Luuuc
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| Posted: 10/10/16 12:26 am ::: |
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I get that, Howee. It's just that one specific aspect of him avoiding tax that I was bringing up.
Obviously the idea of the richest paying the least amount of tax is something that is highly unpalatable to nearly everyone. It seemed like Bernie was the one really going after than one but everyone is pretending to be on board with it now ... which I expect to result in very little change, but we'll see I guess. We have similar issues down here.
| justintyme wrote: |
| And it is consistent with the complaints that have been made the entire time of things he has done to women. Unwanted kissing, running hands up thighs and under skirts. Sexual assault. |
Not even women. Things. "IT"
*barf*
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justintyme
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| Posted: 10/10/16 1:31 am ::: |
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| I have to say, however, I thought the moderation was excellent. Kept as much control as they possibly could (especially the interuptions) and asked great follow up questions to get deeper answers. This is what the moderators should be.
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mercfan3
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 10/10/16 8:31 am ::: |
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| Luuuc wrote: |
I get that, Howee. It's just that one specific aspect of him avoiding tax that I was bringing up.
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Generally speaking, the Democratic platform has always been cut tax loopholes, add more regulations for businesses etc. It wasn't new for Bernie, Bernie just wanted to tax these people down to the middle class. (That was totes a point Bernie for me during the primaries. ) Republicans actually believe in trickle down economics. That you give tax breaks to the wealthy, and that stimulates the economy. (Despite 50 years proving otherwise.)
There are also...ways..in which you can smudge your tax information. You know, you can add more loss than you actually lost. If that makes sense.
But yes, it's a moral issue as well, particularly when you are running for the President of the United States. The Clinton's paid 3.4 Million in taxes last year, I'm sure a great tax lawyer could have gotten that number down..but of course they wanted to look as if they paid their fair share (and that number is slightly lower than it should have been, but only slightly. Probably enough for most of us to agree that it is fair). So they chose to not take off everything they possibly could, to not smudge every number..and paid about what they should have.
And, still after all that is said...I'm not convinced he has followed the tax rules. There's debate about whether he's under audit as it is. He consistently thinks he's above the rules, whether it's with sexual assault or not paying money he owes, or using his charitable foundation's donations as personal funds. It'll be more shocking if there isn't something "off" with his taxes.
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Luuuc
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| Posted: 10/10/16 8:42 am ::: |
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| I'll be surprised too, don't get me wrong, but until the facts come out I'm purposely just talking in hypotheticals. And I know that even though I'm not like the best business person ever with the best plans and the best knowledge of the tax codes, I still don't turn down tax deductions and rebates that are available to me. (I also don't brag about my business prowess after multiple bankruptcies, so I guess my braggadocio game still needs a lot of work, but that's a whole other matter ...)
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 10/10/16 9:24 am ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
DEMONSTRATE DISDAIN.
Her invocation of Michelle O. (take the high road) was okay, BUT REALLY? When Donald used the "locker room" pitch, she could have said something , ("There were no lockers around Donald") simply to put him on the defensive. AND FERCHRISSAKE!? When is she gonna hear her
husband's name and deeds from Donald and reply with: "Donald, Bill's not running for president!"
And when he sez, "If I was president, you'd be in prison", she should have said, "Yes, and groping women will be legal, right?!". Or when he said, "Lincoln never lied!", she coulda zinged him with, "Yes, and he never bragged about groping women, either!" Invoking the High Road was fine, but she needed to stick the cattle prod to his genitals a bit more to keep him agitated. |
Or when he questioned why she didn't use her own money in her campaign, she could have said "I chose to pay my taxes instead."
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Ex-Ref
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| Posted: 10/10/16 9:55 am ::: |
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I don't feel that there was really anything in the debate to change minds of those who have already decided who they are going to vote for. I doubt that there was anything to guide anyone who is undecided.
It would have been nice if they would have answered the questions that were asked instead of jumping on a roundabout and talking about what they wanted to talk about.
One thing that I liked that Hillary did was the way that she interacted with the people asking questions. I know that it was coached, but it showed that she was trying. The first lady that asked about morality and role modles and that teacher assign students to watch the debates, Hillary engaged her by asking "Are you a teacher?" Of course she really didn't answer the question....
Then later when the gentleman asked about energy independence and coal workers, Hillary engaged him by asking about whether he or his friends worked in the coal industry.
I thought that there were a lot of times that you could tell that they were just stalling hoping to be cut off by the moderators.
I got tired of Hillary telling people to visit the website.
I just got tired of Donald.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 10/10/16 10:01 am ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
But yes, it's a moral issue as well, particularly when you are running for the President of the United States. The Clinton's paid 3.4 Million in taxes last year, I'm sure a great tax lawyer could have gotten that number down..but of course they wanted to look as if they paid their fair share (and that number is slightly lower than it should have been, but only slightly. Probably enough for most of us to agree that it is fair). So they chose to not take off everything they possibly could, to not smudge every number..and paid about what they should have.
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I've seen a lot of nonsense written about the Clintons but this may be the silliest yet. You're seriously suggesting that they purposely overpaid their taxes? Did you actually have a straight face when you typed that? Do you think Bill and Hillary sit around the kitchen table with a box of receipts doing their own taxes? Maybe they use TurboTax.
BTW, if you bothered to look you'd see their 2015 return was prepared by Howard Topaz, a 30 year $1000+/hour partner in the huge multinational law firm Hogan Lovells. He's been their tax lawyer for at least a dozen years. This is a guy with an LLM in tax from NYU whose bio begins:
For the past 30 years, Howard Topaz has been making complex tax rules understandable to clients. He is engaged in a broad tax practice providing advice to corporations, partnerships, and wealthy individuals.
Yeah, they left mony on the table, I'm sure.
Hillary counts on this kind of total naivete and blind loyalty from her cult followers..
By the way, back in 1935, the famous judge Learned Hand wrote an oft quoted and cited statement on paying taxes:
"Anyone may arrange his affairs so that his taxes shall be as low as
possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which best pays the
treasury. There is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes.
Over and over again the Courts have said that there is nothing sinister
in so arranging affairs as to keep taxes as low as possible. Everyone
does it, rich and poor alike and all do right, for nobody owes any
public duty to pay more than the law demands."
Trump didn't write the tax laws.
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/10/16 10:14 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
But yes, it's a moral issue as well, particularly when you are running for the President of the United States. The Clinton's paid 3.4 Million in taxes last year, I'm sure a great tax lawyer could have gotten that number down..but of course they wanted to look as if they paid their fair share (and that number is slightly lower than it should have been, but only slightly. Probably enough for most of us to agree that it is fair). So they chose to not take off everything they possibly could, to not smudge every number..and paid about what they should have.
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I've seen a lot of nonsense written about the Clintons but this may be the silliest yet. You're seriously suggesting that they purposely overpaid their taxes? Did you actually have a straight face when you typed that? Do you think Bill and Hillary sit around the kitchen table with a box of receipts doing their own taxes? Maybe they use TurboTax.
BTW, if you bothered to look you'd see their 2015 return was prepared by Howard Topaz, a 30 year $1000+/hour partner in the huge multinational law firm Hogan Lovells. He's been their tax lawyer for at least a dozen years. This is a guy with an LLM in tax from NYU whose bio begins:
For the past 30 years, Howard Topaz has been making complex tax rules understandable to clients. He is engaged in a broad tax practice providing advice to corporations, partnerships, and wealthy individuals.
Yeah, they left mony on the table, I'm sure.
Hillary counts on this kind of total naivete and blind loyalty from her cult followers.. |
It's not naivete to suggest that someone running for office, who fucking knows that their tax returns are going to be available for people to see, would play it straight by the books instead of taking every possible loophole and cut they can get.
That's smart politics.
And of course they use a lawyer. They're worth 200 Million. They've got money coming in from everywhere.
I'm saying the Clinton's aren't fudging things. (Same thing Pence said, actually), whereas I think Trump is. I think Trump is counting losses where he really shouldn't be counting losses (Typical business practice, actually). I think he's taking deductions that are..a stretch at best. (Of course, we don't know because he won't release his tax returns..) This stuff isn't quite illegal, but it's also not moral and looks terrible to the American public. (Of course, I'm also not convinced Trump didn't cross the line either.)
Awesome job twisting my words though. That's what Trump and Republicans count on.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 10/10/16 10:47 am ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
Generally speaking, the Democratic platform has always been cut tax loopholes, add more regulations for businesses etc. It wasn't new for Bernie, Bernie just wanted to tax these people down to the middle class. (That was totes a point Bernie for me during the primaries. ) Republicans actually believe in trickle down economics. That you give tax breaks to the wealthy, and that stimulates the economy. (Despite 50 years proving otherwise.)
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The Dems would probably like you to believe this, but they create at least as many special interest tax breaks as the GOP. And no administration has closed as many loopholes as Ronald Reagan did. It's actually funny that a lot of "conservative" clowns like Cruz like to claim Reagan cut taxes, which he did in 1981, and he did cut rates, but he closed so many loopholes and eliminated so many tax breaks in '82, '84 and '86, that it was at least revenue neutral and he built in automatic increases that have raised them more over time. The 1982 and 1984 tax acts together represent the biggest tax increase ever enacted during peacetime. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 is famous among tax practioners for closing loopholes and eliminating deductions. It's the law that eliminated deductions for club memberships and a long laundry list of other junk like that.
So your sweeping generalization is factually incorrect.
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justintyme
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 10/10/16 10:52 am ::: |
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Cooper: You described kissing women without their consent, grabbing their genitals. That is sexual assault; you bragged that you have sexually assaulted women. Do you understand that?
Trump: ISIS
Cooper: Just for the record, though, are you saying that what you said on that bus 11 years ago, that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent?
Trump: Nobody has more respect for women than I do. Oh, and ISIS.
There is a great SNL skit just sitting there ready to fly.
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ArtBest23
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 10/10/16 11:09 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
Generally speaking, the Democratic platform has always been cut tax loopholes, add more regulations for businesses etc. It wasn't new for Bernie, Bernie just wanted to tax these people down to the middle class. (That was totes a point Bernie for me during the primaries. ) Republicans actually believe in trickle down economics. That you give tax breaks to the wealthy, and that stimulates the economy. (Despite 50 years proving otherwise.)
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The Dems would probably like you to believe this, but they create at least as many special interest tax breaks as the GOP. And no administration has closed as many loopholes as Ronald Reagan did. It's actually funny that a lot of "conservative" clowns like Cruz like to claim Reagan cut taxes, which he did in 1981, and he did cut rates, but he closed so many loopholes and eliminated so many tax breaks in '82, '84 and '86, that it was at least revenue neutral and he built in automatic increases that have raised them more over time. The 1982 and 1984 tax acts together represent the biggest tax increase ever enacted during peacetime. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 is famous amount tax practioners for closing loopholes and eliminating deductions. It's the law that eliminated deductions for club memberships and a long laundry list of other junk like that.
So your sweeping generalization is factually incorrect. |
It's not a sweeping generalization. It's policy.
Second, Reagan closed tax loopholes because he had to, not out of his own policy. He originally made the biggest tax cut in history, then when revenues weren't where he wanted them to be, compromise was necessary, and he closed tax loopholes.
He didn't want to. It was a compromise, and Reagan was a Republican with bad policies, but still knew how to act like an adult and do what was likely best for the country.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/25/stephen-colbert/stephen-colbert-brings-ronald-reagans-tax-raising-/
So thus, my point stands. Even if Reagan closed tax loopholes and increased taxes later in his presidency, it wasn't his policy to do so.
BTW, despite the fact that Reagan started the trickle down economics bullshit, he'd probably be a Democrat today. Because once again, they're the only adults in the room.
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mercfan3
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| Posted: 10/10/16 11:12 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| mercfan3 wrote: |
It's not naivete to suggest that someone running for office, who fucking knows that their tax returns are going to be available for people to see, would play it straight by the books instead of taking every possible loophole and cut they can get. |
Taking the full extent of every deferral, deduction, and credit the law provides IS playing " straight by the books." And I guarantee the Clinton are doing exactly that as well.
It's absurd that it's "immoral" to pay exactly the taxes the law requires you to pay. The US Govt is not a charity. Where do you come up with this stuff?
| mercfan3 wrote: |
I'm saying the Clinton's aren't fudging things. (Same thing Pence said, actually), whereas I think Trump is. |
You "think" that's the reality. So your fertile imagination tells you the Clinton are honest and Trump cheats. You have no facts to support that, but it must be true because you dreamt it last night. Guess that settles it. 
And nobody "twisted anything. No reason to when you actually said
| mercfan3 wrote: |
| So they chose to not take off everything they possibly could. |
I mean, you can't make that stuff up. |
I have plenty of facts to back that up. Like, you know, actual news sources. Fact checkers..etc..
Doesn't matter though, it's you who believes what you want to believe.
Once again, awesome job twisting my words and not looking at the sentence in context. Honestly, I wasn't even complimenting the Clintons. I was literally saying because they are politicians and they know they have to be transparent that they did not exercise a liberal use of tax loopholes and..bended definitions. Or do you think they couldn't have gotten lower than the 43% they paid in taxes?
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mercfan3
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