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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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 Posted: 09/21/16 12:22 pm ::: |
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[quote="CBiebel"]
| linkster wrote: |
Gee, I wonder if the very tall players Stewart and Tuck (who won't be playing this year) and the lack of Turner (who should be playing) and Reimer were injured might have had something to do with the lack of scoring inside?
Seriously, Linkster, i used to think you tried to be at least a bit impartial, but this is really silly.
While ND won't have Reimer, they will have Turner and UConn won't have Tuck and Stewart.
Are you really suggesting that the loss of Stewart and Tuck won't be a big deal? Really? Do you disrespect them that much? |
LOL. And someone accused ME of making up excuses? And how come you think UConn will miss Stewart and Tuck but not Jefferson? Oh, thant's right, Notre Dame fans seem to believe that with more size they would have won a NC or two in the last several years.
You Irish always have an excuse for your loses. It's never simply that the other team played better. When UConn beat your mighty football team and I mentioned it, I was told that it didn't count because N Dame had a bad coach that year. Absurd! UConn has had mostly bad coaches for the last 50 years. But I digress.
But to answer your question, UConn had three great players graduate. They were so great that most of their opponents' fans stopped watching UConn play because every game was a foregone conclusion. And yet without seeing UConn play more than 5 minutes of any game they all seem to have become experts in rating the 2016/17 team.
I totally agree that the team will regress as players take on new and expanded roles on the team. I'm fairly certain there will be losses. How many depends on when or whether the players this year take ownership of the team and gel into a unit. Some seem to forget that 4 years ago, with Stewart, Tuck, Jefferson, along with Dolson and Hartley and Stokes, UConn lost 4 games during the season. Stewart, it was being said, was not the player everyone expected. Need I remind you that after winning 6-8 (of which UConn fans were endlessly reminded) and three games that year, the Irish lost in the NCAA semi's.
I think there are some who never appreciated how dominant UConn was last year. They were too busy talking about how terrible UConn was for wcbb. There were games last year when UConn scored more in the first half than their opponents did in the entire game. And these were games where the three seniors played <25 minutes. This year, UConn has 4 starters returning, Nurse Collier Williams and Samuelson. Geno doesn't start someone unless he trusts them. Now that group lacks a post, but at 6', 6'1", 5' 11" and 6'3", they are not a small core. They are all scorers, rebounders and defenders, despite what some think. (ND fans, understandably, never seem to mention defense)
I am reminded of the scene from Terminator II, when the assassin is melted into a molten pool and the protagonists think it's over, turn their backs and start to walk away, while the drops of liquid metal re-gather together.
For the first time in 3 years, fans of other teams have legitimate hopes of a national title. For UConn fans it's gone from a near certainty to a hope. But far from hopeless. There are several teams that have legitimate hopes of beating UConn and I think some of them will. But don't turn your back on UConn. Anyone who thinks they are the 2009 LV's or the 2002 Irish is sadly mistaken. (bolded for emphasis)
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 09/21/16 12:37 pm ::: |
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| CBiebel wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| Quote: |
Well I'm glad to know the only reason ND lost last year was because ND had to play Ohio St only three days prior to UConn.
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It certainly explains some of it. UConn played a pretty crappy game and yet the only reason it wasn't a 20 point win for UConn was because the Irish freshmen were unconscious from 3, something they never duplicated again last year. |
False. ND had a great set of 3 point shooting around that time period. It's well documented. |
The key words are "around that period" What happened to that shooting against Stanford? The two freshmen had great starts to the season, outplaying the UConn frosh, but by the time April rolled around the Irish frosh had faded.
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linkster
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| Posted: 09/21/16 2:50 pm ::: |
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| CBiebel wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
You talk about Mabrey's 21 points in the 1st half. I look at the stats and see that Notre Dame was 7-10 from 3 in the first half and yet trailed by 2. You fail to mention that other than their 3 pt shooting, the Irish were 9-24 38% in non-3pt shots. Pretty pathetic. The Irish still scored an impressive 81 points vs the Huskies, I think the most anyone scored all season. But they gave up 91. What exactly has changed to make one believe that their defense will not be just as bad this year?
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What has changed? Seriously?
How about the loss of Stewart, Tuck, and Jefferson? That's a loss of 63 of UConn's 91 points. You think that losing 2/3 of UConn's scoring won't make an impact? Seriously?
Also, it was only a few days before the ND-UConn game that ND lost it's two post starters (remember that two of UConn's top 3 players were in the post). Adjusting for that explains the emphasis on outside shooting. Remove Tuck and Stewart and add Turner and do you really think UConn would win?
Oh, and let's not forget that the only reason a FRESHMAN Marina Mabrey only scored 2 points in the second half was because a SENIOR Jefferson shut her down. Mabrey will get better with experience. Jefferson won't be there next year...
I used to think you had some form of decent analysis, but after this post, I think you are a homer who should stay on the Boneyard. |
Remember, I was debating UConn with Art and when you lie down with obfuscators You catch fleas.
In a game where three players play 60% of the minutes it's hardly a surprise that they scored 63% of the points. Sounds like balanced scoring if you ask me.
The "big 3" played 44% of the minutes over the season and scored 50% of the points. When you factor in that they were on the bench late when Geno would have already shut down the transition game and the pace of scoring declined I'd say that they scored their share of the points but barely more than their minutes would suggest.
The ease at which the three seniors scored won't likely be duplicated this year but UConn won't be Miss St either. Now it is up in the air whether this year's players can score 88/game. I doubt it. And it's also unlikely that they will hold their opponents to the ridiculous 48 pts/gm of last year. But that was a 40 point/game MOV last year. If UConn can score 78 and give up 58 they'll still do quite well.
| Quote: |
| Mabrey will get better with experience |
And so will Samuelson, Collier and Williams. Our disagreement lies in the degree. I look at these three and see potential AA's. Others look at their fresHman scoring and think otherwise. Time will tell. I suggest taking a look at Collier's U-19 stats. Second in scoring to Wilson and 1st in rebounding on a team that included Wilson, Shakayla Thomas, Azura Stevens, Kristine Anigwe & Lauren Cox. And on a loaded roster Staley gave her more minutes than anyone. Does that suggest to you that Collier is incapable of assuming a leadership role on UConn?
There are more questions about UConn this year than any recent season. I don't expect to see answers to all those questions but I do expect good answers for most of them.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 09/21/16 3:11 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| The two freshmen had great starts to the season, outplaying the UConn frosh, but by the time April rolled around the Irish frosh had faded. |
Finally got something right. Since ND's last game was in March, it is true that by the time April rolled around, the frosh, as well as the sophs, jrs, and srs, had "faded."
On the other hand, in March, they were still doing fine, such as in the ACC tourney against Duke when they came off the bench to be co-leaders for the team in scoring, or in the NCAA tourney vs IU when Mabrey scored 15 on 5-8 shooting. Both averaged double figures in scoring for the year even though neither were starters.
Of course, April rolling around just highlights what has been said here about UConn, because in UConn's last four games the departed three scored 219 of UConn's 346 total pts, or over 63%. We still haven't read here any plausible explanation of how exactly that nearly two thirds of UConn's points are going to magically reappear.
Now, on the other hand, Baylor, OhSt, MD, UCLA, S.Car and ND all return their leading scorer. Indeed, S.Car and MD return 2 of their top 3, Oh St and UCLA return 3 of their top 4, ND returns 5 of its top 6, and Baylor returns all of its top 5 scorers from last year.
But, we are all supposed to simply accept that losing the top three picks in the WNBA draft will have no effect on UConn, because you and bballjunkie say so, but are evidently sworn to secrecy regarding how that's going to work.
Maybe you can understand why there might be some healthy skepticism.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 09/21/16 4:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| The two freshmen had great starts to the season, outplaying the UConn frosh, but by the time April rolled around the Irish frosh had faded. |
Finally got something right. Since ND's last game was in March, it is true that by the time April rolled around, the frosh, as well as the sophs, jrs, and srs, had "faded."
On the other hand, in March, they were still doing fine, such as in the ACC tourney against Duke when they came off the bench to be co-leaders for the team in scoring, or in the NCAA tourney vs IU when Mabrey scored 15 on 5-8 shooting. Both averaged double figures in scoring for the year even though neither were starters.
Of course, April rolling around just highlights what has been said here about UConn, because in UConn's last four games the departed three scored 219 of UConn's 346 total pts, or over 63%. We still haven't read here any plausible explanation of how exactly that nearly two thirds of UConn's points are going to magically reappear.
Now, on the other hand, Baylor, OhSt, MD, UCLA, S.Car and ND all return their leading scorer. Indeed, S.Car and MD return 2 of their top 3, Oh St and UCLA return 3 of their top 4, ND returns 5 of its top 6, and Baylor returns all of its top 5 scorers from last year.
But, we are all supposed to simply accept that losing the top three picks in the WNBA draft will have no effect on UConn, because you and bballjunkie say so, but are evidently sworn to secrecy regarding how that's going to work.
Maybe you can understand why there might be some healthy skepticism. |
I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with my opinion. I respect those who (despite saying last year that they weren't watching any of the boring UConn games) seem to have firm opinions about this year's roster. I just disagree. The main difference is that most here can't see past the loss of the three AA's and talk like there simply isn't enough talent this year. I disagree. While there will be less experience and somewhat less talent, there is enough talent there. And come March and April I believe that Geno will have them ready to compete with anyone.
I would think that a fan of a team that couldn't even win a S16 game would be more concerned about his own team's lack of size and weak defense instead of focussing on a team he claims to hardly have watched all of last season. 
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cthskzfn
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ArtBest23
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linkster
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| Posted: 09/21/16 6:54 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oh I watched enough. Of course everyone deserving of my interest is gone. I did learn that Samuelson and Nurse can't defend anyone. And I watched Nurse and her sterling 25% shooting in Rio too. Didn't slow her down from chucking it up some more. The 3/17 vs France was particularly impressive. I'm sure that'll keep opponent defenses honest.
Upsets happen. I don't think any UConn fans were panicking when Stanford upset their team a couple years ago. 2016 was a strange tournament. ND, Baylor, Louisville, MD, OhSt, SCar all got upset early leaving UConn a Final Four cakewalk. Certainly doesn't mean those aren't six of the top teams this year. And, as pointed out, those teams (unlike UConn) didn't lose most of their offense ( and defense for that matter). |
Het Art, first name all the NCAA players that were in Rio. Then, just for fun, compare Nurse's contributions to the CNT's with what Natalie Ochonwa has contributed. You remember, that Ochonwa woman who would have won a title for ND if she hadn't been hurt.
And you are totally wrong about that loss to Stanford. It may have been the only loss for UConn in the last 3 years but the way the BYer's reacted you would have thought Geno was about to be fired.
And maybe all those teams you list that lost last year just weren't as good as some thought. And if good teams can get upset then maybe a player can have a bad game or two. You conveniently ignore the fact that Nurse was coming off of surgery. I'm shocked that someone as knowledgeable about UConn as you seem to claim didn't know that.
I've been reading posts here for over 2 years about Nurse. I remember several posters predicting a lot of bench time and end of game mop up minutes for her prior to her freshman season. There was a lot of comments back then about her not being much of a contributor to the CNT. The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career has been quietly ignored by that same group of naysayers for over 2 years.
And finally, isn't it amazing that UConn could be the undisputed No 1 defensive team in the country while saddled with two starters that "can't defend anyone". Why, I guess I was witnessing a miracle last season. LOL But what's got me rolling on floor laughing is the idea of a Notre Dame fan criticizing another team's players' defense.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 09/21/16 7:16 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career . . .
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is because there has been no one else. Who was going to play instead? Chong?
Thanks for the laugh.
It's not like there's a whole line of superstar guards sitting on the bench.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 09/21/16 8:09 pm ::: |
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early over/under number of charges committed by Nurse at ND:
1.5
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 09/21/16 8:21 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career . . .
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is because there has been no one else. Who was going to play instead? Chong?
Thanks for the laugh.
It's not like there's a whole line of superstar guards sitting on the bench. |
Nurse ain't chopped liver, Art. Yes her shot can be inconsistent at times but she finished last year shooting 37% from 3, 75% from the line, and had 104/53 As/Tos.
As I told you on this site during the Olympics, she had just returned from injury before the games started.
In my mind she isn't a natural PG and will have a much bigger burden this yr. She'll run through a brick wall and give 100% though. It will be interesting to see how well she meets the challenge.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 09/21/16 9:13 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career . . .
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is because there has been no one else. Who was going to play instead? Chong?
Thanks for the laugh.
It's not like there's a whole line of superstar guards sitting on the bench. |
Nurse ain't chopped liver, Art. Yes her shot can be inconsistent at times but she finished last year shooting 37% from 3, 75% from the line, and had 104/53 As/Tos.
As I told you on this site during the Olympics, she had just returned from injury before the games started.
In my mind she isn't a natural PG and will have a much bigger burden this yr. She'll run through a brick wall and give 100% though. It will be interesting to see how well she meets the challenge. |
No, she isn't chopped liver, but minimizing the effect of losing Jefferson (as a couple people are doing) is just ridiculous when the result is that Nurse becomes the #1 guard. Nurse is a good guard, Jefferson was a great guard, especially last year. The dropoff is enormous at both ends of the court.
Anybody can have a cold shooting game. The bigger issue in Rio was her lack of judgment. She wasn't just cold against France and a couple others, she was forcing horrifically bad shots and not even looking to pass. She cost her team any chance of winning that France game down the stretch with badly forced shots.
Williams gives 100% too. Or more. She has a lot of good qualities. Her problem is she has no shot, which is quite a shortcoming for a 2/3, and with defenses not having to focus on the departed three, she's not likely to get the same open drives this year. She took ONE 3 in two years ( and missed). She was great as a role player alongside the big three starting against Syracuse, but that doesn't mean she's a replacement for any of the big three.
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linkster
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| Posted: 09/21/16 9:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career . . .
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is because there has been no one else. Who was going to play instead? Chong?
Thanks for the laugh.
It's not like there's a whole line of superstar guards sitting on the bench. |
Because they didn't need anyone else. Nurse has intangibles. She's a fierce competitor. This year's team needs to get a lot tougher quickly. As an upperclassman I hope she sets the tone for the team.
I'm surprised you feel this way about Nurse. Sometimes a UConn player seems to fit another team. I always thought Nurse would be better suited as a Notre Dame guard, taking over for the legacy of McBride and Novosel on those drives to the hoop. 6' She's got those shoulders. And she is as hard-nosed as they come. Think Bruzer. Just needs a few sessions with Muffin to learn the finer points on drawing contact in the paint and getting to the line 10 times a game.
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linkster
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| Posted: 09/21/16 9:20 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
early over/under number of charges committed by Nurse at ND:
1.5 |
Exactly how many total fouls per game she committed last year.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 09/21/16 9:23 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
The fact that she has started every game since the 2nd game of her UConn career . . .
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is because there has been no one else. Who was going to play instead? Chong?
Thanks for the laugh.
It's not like there's a whole line of superstar guards sitting on the bench. |
Nurse has intangibles. She's a fierce competitor.
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Talk about damning with faint praise.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 09/21/16 10:04 pm ::: |
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So here is where I think UConn is, btw.
There is some serious talent, and there are some serious holes.
Samuelson can be a star, but has to do more than just shoot threes. She needs to step way up as a complete, well rounded, inside-outside player, get much more physical, and take on a very large part of creating points, because there are a limited number of scorers. And she has to play defense in the paint because Stewart and Tuck are gone as backstops and she will often be the tallest player on the court for UConn. Is she going to defend Wilson and Turner and Hart or Mavunga, and one of Baylor's many bigs, and Lang or Holmes?
Collier needs to take an even bigger step up because she's starting from a much lower point. Frankly, out of HS, I would have picked her over Samuelson to be a star, but it didn't show last year. I'm still expecting big things.
I think much of how this year's UConn turns out depends on how Butler turns out. Having watched her a lot both in HS and the Big East, I'm skeptical. But we'll see what Geno can do with her healthy. She'll rebound, but she needs to score and defend. Often against much quicker more athletic players. My reaction is that how Butler goes, so goes UConn.
Guard and depth are both serious issues. Is the point guard Nurse or a true freshman? Neither is a great option. Who plays the 2? Williams, who is needed for the rotation at forward, and who has no outside shot, thus allowing defenses to collapse, or Chong, who can't defend anybody and turns it over? Or is it Dangerfield and Nurse? That's not confidence inspiring and who substitutes?
So UConn will be good. Samuelson and Collier and perhaps Dangerfield should be enough to ensure that along with other role players. They'll probably be top ten. Whether they're top five depends in my view whether Butler exceeds what anyone ever expected of her. But UConn doesn't have the talent advantage they've had in the past. Their roster is not better than SCar, or Louisville, or ND, or Baylor, or Ohio State, or perhaps Texas or MD or UCLA. Just match up the starting fives and I don't think you can fairly conclude otherwise. Match up this year's starting five to last year's UConn five and the droppoff is obvious. So even if you have " faith in Geno", he can't win all of them from the sideline.
Maybe I'm underestimating somebody. I'd be curious to get other rational views ( no I don't mean your bluster Linkster,). It'll be an interesting year.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 09/21/16 10:30 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
early over/under number of charges committed by Nurse at ND:
1.5 |
Exactly how many total fouls per game she committed last year. |
Indeed, but which are you taking?
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linkster
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 09/22/16 12:58 am ::: |
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As I said above, I think this could be the most interesting and unpredictable UConn season since 2003. I also voted for UConn to win the 2017 NC in my poll, albeit with great hesitation and a reluctance to bet more than a penny on that outcome.
I picked 2003 as a benchmark year for a reason.
In 2002 UConn had gone 39-0 to win the NC. Four outstanding seniors from that record-setting team graduated: Sue Bird, Swin Cash, Asjha Jones and Tamika Williams. Bird and Cash were first team AA's. Bird was the Wade, Naismith and Lieberman NPOY. Bird, Cash and Jones became Olympians. From the floor, the four seniors shot an amazing: 70.4% (Williams), 55.5% (Jones), 54.9% (Cash) and 50.5% (Bird). Williams still holds the NCAA career record for FG%. Bird still hold the UConn career record for 3pt shooting percent at 45.9%.
The 2002 team averaged 87.0 ppg and held opponents to 51.6 ppg (a then national defense record), for an an average MOV of 35.4 -- a national MOV record that stood until 2014. The four graduating seniors:
-- scored 51.6 of the team's 87.0 ppg, or 61.3% of the total points per game; and
-- grabbed 30.0 of the team's 45.5 rpg, or 65.9% of the total rebounds per game.
How could UConn possibly replace the scoring, rebounding and defense of Bird, Cash, Jones and Williams in 2003???
That next 2003 season, with no seniors, UConn won the NC with a record of 37-1. They averaged 74.8 ppg and held opponents to 53.5 ppg for an average MOV of 21.3 ppg. They outrebounded their opponents 42.0 to 31.8 rpg.
Of course the 2003 team had her whom the 2017 team don't: Diana Taurasi. But at all the other positions the 2017 team is arguably stronger.
Undeniably, so is the competition in 2017. However, UConn's 39.7 ppg MOV from last season is quite a comfortable cushion, from which this season's UConn team can fritter away quite a few points on offense and defense.
I'm not counting on any contribution from freshmen Bent or Irwin, simply because I haven't a clue as to either of their talents, other than that no one ranked them. I'm also not counting on any sort of exceptional contribution from Butler, other than being a reasonably reliable front court sub. I think the keys will be Chong and Dangerfield. One of them has to consistently perform at point guard at something akin to her high school level of excellence. I still think Chong has it in her . . . somewhere.
I won't be surprised if UConn or any one of four or five other teams wins the NC. I'm looking forward to lots of competitive and interesting games. |
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 09/22/16 3:27 am ::: |
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[quote="linkster"]
| CBiebel wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
Gee, I wonder if the very tall players Stewart and Tuck (who won't be playing this year) and the lack of Turner (who should be playing) and Reimer were injured might have had something to do with the lack of scoring inside?
Seriously, Linkster, i used to think you tried to be at least a bit impartial, but this is really silly.
While ND won't have Reimer, they will have Turner and UConn won't have Tuck and Stewart.
Are you really suggesting that the loss of Stewart and Tuck won't be a big deal? Really? Do you disrespect them that much? |
LOL. And someone accused ME of making up excuses? And how come you think UConn will miss Stewart and Tuck but not Jefferson? Oh, thant's right, Notre Dame fans seem to believe that with more size they would have won a NC or two in the last several years.
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You apparently missed the point of my comment. I was giving an analogy to ND's situation. ND's two starting post players were injured right before the game, so I asked you how UConn would have done without THEIR two starting post players.
And as for making fun of "excuses" apparently you are forgetting 2001, aka the "YOU ONLY WON BECAUSE TWO ALL AMERICANS WERE INJURED!" year. Oh no, UConn fans NEVER make excuses, right?
I'd tell you how many times I've heard that from UConn fans, but I'm not sure I can count that high...and I was a math major... 
If you really want me to mention Jefferson, okay. How about...
"What if Jefferson left a year early for the WNBA (like Loyd did), and Stewart and Tuck were injured right before the game (like what happened with Turner and Reimer). How would UConn have done against ND? "
Feel better now?
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CBiebel
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 09/22/16 10:27 am ::: |
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OMG this is funnier than I thought.
The fact that ND lost in the elite 8 and is acting like gods gift is hilarious. The fact that they or should I say 1 who thinks they're gods gift is ripping on Uconns defense, the best defensive machine in the country last year which included their returners, well that s just certifiable, especially when ND couldn't guard a chair and is left with players who are into looking for their own over passing. Allen and Turner will stand alone on an island unless MM can get her new players to buy into passing like the old ND teams.
When ND is so obsessed with Uconn, start making shit up about Uconn that they forget that they actually lost to other teams, Dr Phil they need your help.
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linkster
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| Posted: 09/22/16 12:28 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
OMG this is funnier than I thought.
The fact that ND lost in the elite 8 and is acting like gods gift is hilarious. The fact that they or should I say 1 who thinks they're gods gift is ripping on Uconns defense, the best defensive machine in the country last year which included their returners, well that s just certifiable, especially when ND couldn't guard a chair and is left with players who are into looking for their own over passing. Allen and Turner will stand alone on an island unless MM can get her new players to buy into passing like the old ND teams.
When ND is so obsessed with Uconn, start making shit up about Uconn that they forget that they actually lost to other teams, Dr Phil they need your help. |
Actually they lost in the S16. So they beat a 16th seed and an 8 seed before losing.
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linkster
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Phil
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