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NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4929



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PostPosted: 09/04/16 12:39 pm    ::: Preseason Write-ups, picks, etc Reply Reply with quote

Athlon has two pages of their BB mag dedicated to WBB. It's entitled the "Reign is Over".

Rankings

1. Notre Dame
2. Baylor
3. South Carolina
4.Connecticut
5. Ohio State
6. Louisville
7. Mississippi State
8. Maryland
9. Stanford but this presumed Lily Thompson coming back
10. Texas
11. Oklahoma
12. Florida State
13. Tennessee
14. Arizona State
15. Kentucky
16. Syracuse
17. South Dakota State
18. Oregon State
19. Indiana
20. Auburn
21. Florida
22. Miami
23. Green Bay
24. Washington
25. Missouri


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 09/04/16 1:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's a much better top ten ranking than most that I've seen.

The only questionable one is MissSt, and if McCowan really steps up, that's totally realistic

After #12 it becomes more problematic, especially with several grossly overrated SEC teams.


NoDakSt



Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 09/04/16 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The three Florida P5 schools all getting recognition. The 3 Tobacco Road schools none at all.


FollowtheCardinalRule



Joined: 12 Oct 2011
Posts: 5153
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PostPosted: 09/04/16 1:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

No love for UCLA with a beast of a player in Monique Billings returning to play alongside Jordin Canada?


IM in OC



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 999
Location: Orange County, CA


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PostPosted: 09/04/16 5:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
No love for UCLA with a beast of a player in Monique Billings returning to play alongside Jordin Canada?



+++ Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/05/16 12:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 09/05/16 11:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

NoDakSt wrote:
The three Florida P5 schools all getting recognition. The 3 Tobacco Road schools none at all.


You hadn't noticed their star has been declining for several years now?



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patsweetpat



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
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PostPosted: 09/06/16 9:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?


I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.


Fighting Artichoke



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: 09/06/16 9:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?


I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.

Agreed. UCLA is around a 10-seed in my book, and I would not be surprised to see them climb into the single digits. Unranked? Must be an accidental omission, as no rational analysis would leave the Bruins out of the top 25. At a bare minimum, I would rank UCLA ahead of Miss. St., Oklahoma, ASU, Kentucky, Oregon St., Indiana, Auburn, Florida, Miami, Green Bay, and Missouri.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/06/16 11:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?

I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.


Yep. I totally missed that gaffe. Probably cuz my eyes were rolling so hard with KY's ranking, given they've lost everybody but the janitor.



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Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 09/06/16 11:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?

I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.


Yep. I totally missed that gaffe. Probably cuz my eyes were rolling so hard with KY's ranking, given they've lost everybody but the janitor.


They've gained Lin Dunn



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Fighting Artichoke



Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: 09/06/16 12:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?

I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.


Yep. I totally missed that gaffe. Probably cuz my eyes were rolling so hard with KY's ranking, given they've lost everybody but the janitor.


They've gained Lin Dunn

But she's lost a step and cannot elevate as she once could. You can drive past her or step back for an uncontested J. She's at best a bench player at this stage of her life (pushing 70).


summertime blues



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7842
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PostPosted: 09/07/16 7:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
Shades wrote:
Howee wrote:
patsweetpat wrote:
Howee wrote:
My gut is telling me L'ville, MD, Kentucky, and Indiana are all a weeee bit high on this ranking. (ESPECIALLY Kentucky!) But none of it is preposterous....right?

I'd say that the omission of UCLA kind of borders on preposterous. As last season concluded the Bruins were a 3-seed, 10th in RPI, 12th in Massey, 15th in Sagarin, and they lost one starter from the tournament team that went on to the Sweet 16. Yet UCLA doesn't deserve to be ranked because reasons.


Yep. I totally missed that gaffe. Probably cuz my eyes were rolling so hard with KY's ranking, given they've lost everybody but the janitor.


They've gained Lin Dunn

But she's lost a step and cannot elevate as she once could. You can drive past her or step back for an uncontested J. She's at best a bench player at this stage of her life (pushing 70).


You win the internet today, FA! Very Happy



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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
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pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66914
Location: Where the action is


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 1:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lindy's Preseason rankings

1 Baylor
2 Notre Dame
3 Louisville
4 South Carolina
5 Maryland
6 UConn
7 Ohio State
8 Texas
9 Stanford
10 UCLA
11 Florida State
12 Mississippi State
13 Arizona State
14 Oklahoma
15 Miami (FL)
16 Tennessee
17 Missouri
18 Florida
19 Syracuse
20 Indiana
21 Washington
22 DePaul
23 West Virginia
24 Auburn
25 Oregon State



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CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 4:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Regarding Duke...

Replacing Azura Stevens will be incredibly difficult and will have to be by committee. Replacing Angela Salvadores is much easier, as Lexie Brown (more on her below) is eligible after sitting out per the transfer rules (and is a big upgrade over the talented, but inconsistent Salvadores).

If Duke stays healthy, things can definitely improve over last year and the Blue Devils could finish as high as 3rd (with a few road wins) or 4th in the ACC.

Lexie Brown in the backcourt will add scoring and playmaking. She averaged 13.3 points and 4.5 assists in her sophomore year at Maryland. In her two seasons with the Terps, she shot over 35.4 percent from three. And in her sophomore year, she was named AP Third Team All-American.

This will also take some pressure of Kyra Lambert at the point, as there is someone else who can be a playmaker.

Rebecca Greenwell will likely be at the three. She averaged 15.1 points (44.3 percent overall, 41.7 from three with 2.5 made threes per game) and 5.9 rebounds last year.

Up front, Oderah Chidom (9.6 points, 6.5 rebounds) is back for her senior year. The likely final starting spot will go to senior Kendall Cooper (who missed the second half of the season due to academics) or freshman MCDAA Leaonna Odom.

Now, for some reason, McCallie favors having a "defensive stopper" on the perimeter/wing in the starting lineup who cannot score or shoot with any consistency (e.g., Keturah Jackson). Last year, it was Crystal Primm, who started 14 games, shot 40 percent from the floor, did not make a three, and only hit 59 percent of her free throws, while racking up 26 assists against 50 turnovers - not ideal for a 5-11 guard. Hopefully, she will buck this trend.

If Chidom can hit over 70 percent of her free throws and if Cooper continues to show some range on her shot (as she did in the beginning part of last year), Duke has a very, very talented starting five. The bench will have Odom and a sophomore class who were all ranked in the top 40-50 (Primm, Gorecki, Suggs) and will need to take a step forward this season.

The wild card is Lynee Belton, who is a beast down low, but who has had injury after injury. If - and this is a HUGE if - she is healthy, she gives Duke a monster low block presence. But if she is not, Duke is very thin in terms of post depth, as only one of Cooper/Odom and Erin Mathias are frontcourt players.

The other wild card is McCallie herself. She is known for running the same offensive schemes and not being incredibly creative with her sets or taking advantage of the versatility of her players' skillsets to run different schemes. She also loves the matchup zone on the defensive end, which good teams exploit in the corners. And then there is the matter of the offseason investigation into allegations of player and coach mistreatment.

If McCallie can (somehow) switch things up and throw different looks at teams and can learn to humble herself after this investigation (or at least not get in the way of the talent in the starting lineup), Duke will find itself in the top 25 and the top quarter of the ACC. The non-conference schedule is not particularly challenging, as only South Carolina (in Durham) is an elite opponent. The rest of the schedule consists of Rutgers (road) and a depleted Kentucky team (also in Durham), plus Vanderbilt (road) - none of which is ranked in the Top 25 in the preseason polls or among Rebkell posters. The conference schedule is tougher, as Notre Dame and Florida State are road games, while the Blue Devils play ranked teams Louisville, Miami, and Syracuse at home.


bacabuck



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 245



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PostPosted: 09/28/16 5:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I notice that both rankings show Ohio State behind UConn.

I think this is the correct call, since last year, they terrorized us so completely that we may not be able to coax the Buckeyes out of their locker room for the game on Dec. 19th.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 5:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One more topic, regarding Duke...

This is McCallie's TENTH season at Duke.

She inherited a roster with eight high school All-Americans (MCDAA) - Wanisha Smith, Abby Waner, Carrem Gay, Krystal Thomas, Jasmine Thomas, Joy Cheek, Bridgette Mitchell.

Since McCallie took over, Duke has had at least five recruiting classes ranked #1 or #2.

Out of 120 MCDAAs from 2010-2014, 12 have gone to Duke - 10 percent (*Note that this does not include players who were named Parade All-Americans or WBCA All-Americans).

This year, she has 7 McDonald's All-Americans on the roster - Lyneé Belton, Oderah Chidom, Kendall Cooper, Rebecca Greenwell, Kyra Lambert, Lexie Brown, and Leaonna Odom.

And yet...

Comparing predecessor Gail Goestenkors' last seven years at Duke with Joanne P. McCallie's nine years at Duke produces the following:

NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 18-8 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses, one missed NCAA Tournament)

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-14 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 7-29 (19.44 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 19-37 (33.93 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 58-50 (53.701 percent)


The talent, in terms of highly ranked players with tons of high school accolades, is there. The recruiting of high school players has been excellent. But the player development is severely lacking.

Duke went from a perennial national title contender (or at least in the discussion) during Goestenkors' final seven years (which does not even include her Elite Eight run in 1998 and Final Four/national runner-up in 1999) to an also-ran and a program with a tremendous history and little results. Four Elite Eights in 9 seasons? Very good. 6 Sweet 16s? Good - but not good for a coach who was expressly hired to lead Duke to the only thing the program was missing...the national title (Joe Alleva's words).

The win total has dropped the last four years, from 33 wins (and the Elite Eight) in 2013 to 28 wins (and a second round loss at home) in 2014 to 23 wins (and making the Sweet 16 after barely surviving at home during the first two rounds) in 2015 to 20 wins (and missing the NCAA Tournament for the first time in over two decades) in 2016.

Her contract runs through 2018-2019. She earns over $800,000 per year. Buying out a coach with that long left on her deal at that amount in the most expensive non-revenue sport, plus having to pay the new coach, is not an option. But if Duke cannot buck the trend in recent years, the program will wither away until a new coach comes in.

On the other hand, McCallie has been lucky (or smart) with certain things. She watered down the non-conference schedule (no more UConn, no more Stanford) to get more wins. Duke's ACC partners (two games) are Wake and UNC (and UNC is in turmoil). And even though Lexie Brown and Rebecca Greenwell could leave after this year as they are graduating, they may stay for their respective final years of eligibility to attend Fuqua, meaning she would only lose Chidom and Cooper and could eek out another season of 20 wins with that backcourt.

As always with Joanne P. McCallie, we are waiting to see what happens...and what lessons will be learned.


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 09/28/16 9:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
The talent, in terms of highly ranked players with tons of high school accolades, is there. The recruiting of high school players has been excellent. But the player development is severely lacking.


All of which highlights the fact that Quality of Coaching may be a bigger factor than player talent in determining program success.

What I cannot fathom is how someone like Coach P has received the continued Big $$$ contract extensions, despite lack of production over the span of all these years.



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Shades



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 12:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bacabuck wrote:
I notice that both rankings show Ohio State behind UConn.

I think this is the correct call, since last year, they terrorized us so completely that we may not be able to coax the Buckeyes out of their locker room for the game on Dec. 19th.


The three terrorists have left the team.


bacabuck



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: 09/29/16 8:52 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Quote:
The talent, in terms of highly ranked players with tons of high school accolades, is there. The recruiting of high school players has been excellent. But the player development is severely lacking.


All of which highlights the fact that Quality of Coaching may be a bigger factor than player talent in determining program success.

What I cannot fathom is how someone like Coach P has received the continued Big $$$ contract extensions, despite lack of production over the span of all these years.


Agreed, totally fathomless, baffling, an enigma wrapped in a mystery,...........which begs the question............is there something we don't yet know????

I, for one, am going to stay tuned.


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Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: 09/29/16 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Quote:
The talent, in terms of highly ranked players with tons of high school accolades, is there. The recruiting of high school players has been excellent. But the player development is severely lacking.


All of which highlights the fact that Quality of Coaching may be a bigger factor than player talent in determining program success.

What I cannot fathom is how someone like Coach P has received the continued Big $$$ contract extensions, despite lack of production over the span of all these years.


I, for one, was somewhat bemused to see Elizabeth Williams, late of Duke, named Most Improved Player in the WNBA (yes, I know this isn't the WNBA board, but hear me out!). I was always completely underwhelmed by Williams, as you may remember, when she was an undergrad, and several times expressed the feeling that I was glad she'd decided in favor of Duke father than Tennessee. She has indeed improved GREATLY since coming to the WNBA.....and IMO she could have been well ahead had she played for someone *other* than Coach P. It need not necessarily have been Pat and/or Holly. Just someone who could have developed her talent a lot sooner.

That is all.



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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
bacabuck



Joined: 28 May 2009
Posts: 245



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 1:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
bacabuck wrote:
I notice that both rankings show Ohio State behind UConn.

I think this is the correct call, since last year, they terrorized us so completely that we may not be able to coax the Buckeyes out of their locker room for the game on Dec. 19th.


The three terrorists have left the team.



Thank you. I find your words comforting.........................but are you sure?


Shades



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63777



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PostPosted: 09/29/16 1:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bacabuck wrote:
Howee wrote:
Quote:
The talent, in terms of highly ranked players with tons of high school accolades, is there. The recruiting of high school players has been excellent. But the player development is severely lacking.


All of which highlights the fact that Quality of Coaching may be a bigger factor than player talent in determining program success.

What I cannot fathom is how someone like Coach P has received the continued Big $$$ contract extensions, despite lack of production over the span of all these years.


Agreed, totally fathomless, baffling, an enigma wrapped in a mystery,...........which begs the question............is there something we don't yet know????

I, for one, am going to stay tuned.



When's the last time there was any serious buzz around Oklahoma? Why does Coale continue to pull down big money?

Data from 2/2015 article
Quote:
1. Sherri Coale, Oklahoma
Guaranteed compensation: $1,100,000
Max potential bonus: $300,000
Championship bonus: $100,000
Years at school: 19th
Record at school/overall: 416-203 / 416-203
NCAA titles at school/overall: 0 / 0
Final Four appearances at school/overall: 3 / 3
Sweet 16 appearances at school/overall: 9 / 9
NCAA Tournaments at school/overall: 15 / 15
Regular-season conference titles at school/overall: 6 / 6
Conference tournament titles at school/overall: 4 / 4


Howee



Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15737
Location: OREGON (in my heart)


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PostPosted: 10/01/16 9:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Shades wrote:
When's the last time there was any serious buzz around Oklahoma? Why does Coale continue to pull down big money?


Fine. <*sigh!*> I'll take the (thinly-veiled) bait. Rolling Eyes

1. Coale inherited a moribund program, and made it into (an eventual) National Contender.
2. Coale's program THIS YEAR will probably be no less than 3rd in the Big 12, with #1 and #2 being realistic contenders for a NC.
3. Coale has CONSISTENTLY been in this position in a P5 conference for most of her years.
4. Coale has NOT had the level of quality in her recruitment classes that Coach P has had, yet has a better winning % and tournament success in an equal-or-better conference, and in the NCAAs/NITs, and....WAY fewer 'defectors'.
5. Coale has guided Oklahoma to SEVENTEEN consecutive NCAA tourneys, including 3 FF appearances and 1 NC runner up.
6. Coale is beloved and respected by her fans and peers alike.
7. Coale does not say stupid things in public about her players, nor blame them for losses.
8. Coale consistently demonstrates better technical knowledge of the game, and more intelligent flexibility in adjusting to opponents than does Coach P.
9. Coale has won more Conference Regular Season Titles and Tourney Titles than Coach P.
10. Coale is a HOF member.

Some opinions, mostly facts, but ALL point to why Coale is deserving of her status and salary, compared to Coach P.



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bacabuck



Joined: 28 May 2009
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PostPosted: 10/05/16 8:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
Shades wrote:
When's the last time there was any serious buzz around Oklahoma? Why does Coale continue to pull down big money?


Fine. <*sigh!*> I'll take the (thinly-veiled) bait. Rolling Eyes

1. Coale inherited a moribund program, and made it into (an eventual) National Contender.
2. Coale's program THIS YEAR will probably be no less than 3rd in the Big 12, with #1 and #2 being realistic contenders for a NC.
3. Coale has CONSISTENTLY been in this position in a P5 conference for most of her years.
4. Coale has NOT had the level of quality in her recruitment classes that Coach P has had, yet has a better winning % and tournament success in an equal-or-better conference, and in the NCAAs/NITs, and....WAY fewer 'defectors'.
5. Coale has guided Oklahoma to SEVENTEEN consecutive NCAA tourneys, including 3 FF appearances and 1 NC runner up.
6. Coale is beloved and respected by her fans and peers alike.
7. Coale does not say stupid things in public about her players, nor blame them for losses.
8. Coale consistently demonstrates better technical knowledge of the game, and more intelligent flexibility in adjusting to opponents than does Coach P.
9. Coale has won more Conference Regular Season Titles and Tourney Titles than Coach P.
10. Coale is a HOF member.

Some opinions, mostly facts, but ALL point to why Coale is deserving of her status and salary, compared to Coach P.




Then, to the casual observer, there is the whole bus thing.......Coach Coale WITH her team ON the bus while coach P is ALONE on the bus while driving OVER her team.


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