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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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 Posted: 04/12/16 11:55 am ::: |
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| This has gotten contagious. Mulkey, are you next? Geno??
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/12/16 12:15 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| This has gotten contagious. Mulkey, are you next? Geno?? |
Long overdue in some cases.
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Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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| Posted: 04/12/16 12:25 pm ::: |
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| As Ambassador Kosh would SAY.[/url] |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/12/16 12:37 pm ::: |
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These investigations seem to be getting assigned to the universities' lawyers.
I'm curious what all these lawyers are using for their definition of "mistreatment" and whether that is a moving target.
"I know it when I see it" or "everybody knows what it is" just doesn't cut it. So what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches?
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:03 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
These investigations seem to be getting assigned to the universities' lawyers.
I'm curious what all these lawyers are using for their definition of "mistreatment" and whether that is a moving target.
"I know it when I see it" or "everybody knows what it is" just doesn't cut it. So what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches? |
Yeah, I was thinking about this as well. Mistreatment is basically defined as the practice of treating someone or something badly. That can be interpreted in many ways and what may seem to be mistreatment to some, could be seen as being nothing at all to others.
I agree that there are coaches out there that definitely take it too far, but I would also say that this is becoming another issue of our soft society. Seems as though everyone gets their feelings hurt about all sorts of things. Again, not saying this about any of the most recent situations to arise as I am not in those lockerrooms every day.
Basketball (and sports in general) tends to be a very mental game and sometimes coaches need to try and make their teams mentally tough. I have a feeling that sometimes is interpreted as mistreatment nowadays.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:11 pm ::: |
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Well you know what happens with the clubs that always get the best recruits. Each recruit is promised the world in order to get them on board. Promises are bound to get broken. Does that constitute mistreatment?
Like I know Maryland promised Carlie Wagner she would be a starter from the Day 1. I don't think there's any conceivable way she would have started from Day 1.
Look at the picture Swish Appeal used on this story. Are they trying to project an image? I'm surprised they didn't use a picture of Tyler Summitt slapping a player on the butt for their story on him.
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:17 pm ::: |
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"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:44 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:49 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches. |
All colleges and universities will have some sort of employee handbook outlining acceptable behavior. I assume that would serve at least as a starting point.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 04/12/16 1:54 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches. |
All colleges and universities will have some sort of employee handbook outlining acceptable behavior. I assume that would serve at least as a starting point. |
Not really. I mean, any code of conduct I have ever read/seen is pretty ambiguous and definitely open for interpretation. It doesn't spell out "thou shalt not ________" and provide a laundry list of do's and don'ts. It is really a general guideline. I mean, clearly committing some form of felony, breaking NCAA rules, etc are obvious but things like this are very difficult to define and really aren't in those publications that you mention.
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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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| Posted: 04/12/16 2:16 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches. |
All colleges and universities will have some sort of employee handbook outlining acceptable behavior. I assume that would serve at least as a starting point. |
Not really. I mean, any code of conduct I have ever read/seen is pretty ambiguous and definitely open for interpretation. It doesn't spell out "thou shalt not ________" and provide a laundry list of do's and don'ts. It is really a general guideline. I mean, clearly committing some form of felony, breaking NCAA rules, etc are obvious but things like this are very difficult to define and really aren't in those publications that you mention. |
But those handbooks are written with at least consultation and approval of counsel and they have legal standing.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 04/12/16 2:23 pm ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches. |
All colleges and universities will have some sort of employee handbook outlining acceptable behavior. I assume that would serve at least as a starting point. |
Not really. I mean, any code of conduct I have ever read/seen is pretty ambiguous and definitely open for interpretation. It doesn't spell out "thou shalt not ________" and provide a laundry list of do's and don'ts. It is really a general guideline. I mean, clearly committing some form of felony, breaking NCAA rules, etc are obvious but things like this are very difficult to define and really aren't in those publications that you mention. |
But those handbooks are written with at least consultation and approval of counsel and they have legal standing. |
That is true...just saying that there really aren't hard & fast definitions. I think that is done because it's a very difficult thing to define but also so that the institution has some "wiggle room" when enforcing it.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/12/16 2:38 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
OK, let's assume arguendo those actually are "player mistreatment" (although while lying to the administration is probably misconduct, it's hard to imagine how it constitutes "player mistreatment"), that doesn't answer any of the questions of what is the standard for what is "mistreatment" and what is not "mistreatment", what is the source of that standard, is it written down anywhere, and how has it been communicated to coaches. |
All colleges and universities will have some sort of employee handbook outlining acceptable behavior. I assume that would serve at least as a starting point. |
Not really. I mean, any code of conduct I have ever read/seen is pretty ambiguous and definitely open for interpretation. It doesn't spell out "thou shalt not ________" and provide a laundry list of do's and don'ts. It is really a general guideline. I mean, clearly committing some form of felony, breaking NCAA rules, etc are obvious but things like this are very difficult to define and really aren't in those publications that you mention. |
But those handbooks are written with at least consultation and approval of counsel and they have legal standing. |
That is true...just saying that there really aren't hard & fast definitions. I think that is done because it's a very difficult thing to define but also so that the institution has some "wiggle room" when enforcing it. |
Right. It would be very unlikely they would define conduct constituting mistreatment of players beyond stating the obvious, and incorporating NCAA rules on practice limits and the like. I think they purposely avoid trying to define the proper conduct between player and coach except at the very extreme (e.g., Tyler Summitt's conduct). So when the partner at the law firm hired to do the investigation gets his team of associates together and instructs them on going out and doing interviews, I'm curious what he gives them as guidance on what is going to be considered "mistreatment".
I think this is how schools end up paying lots of money to coaches (not only like Yori, but even Chatman), because in the end they have nothing to point to and say "you violated this rule/agreement/contract/manual". They end up in the unenviable position of saying "we can't keep you, and we think it's obvious why we can't, but since we don't have any written policy covering this, we'll just pay you to go away."
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7370
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/12/16 3:06 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
Great examples. Here's another -
Telling a player that watching them play makes her want to throw up and that the player is such a whiny wimp they don't have a bat's chance in hell of making it in their chosen profession.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 04/12/16 3:13 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
Well you know what happens with the clubs that always get the best recruits. Each recruit is promised the world in order to get them on board. Promises are bound to get broken. Does that constitute mistreatment?
Like I know Maryland promised Carlie Wagner she would be a starter from the Day 1. I don't think there's any conceivable way she would have started from Day 1.
Look at the picture Swish Appeal used on this story. Are they trying to project an image? I'm surprised they didn't use a picture of Tyler Summitt slapping a player on the butt for their story on him. |
What has been happening at Duke has absolutely NOTHING to do with promised playing time.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 04/12/16 3:13 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
Great examples. Here's another -
Telling a player that watching them play makes her want to throw up and that the player is such a whiny wimp they don't have a bat's chance in hell of making it in their chosen profession. |
You think that amounts to actionable player mistreatment? Seriously?
Well, that explains a lot.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 04/12/16 3:18 pm ::: |
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| <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ISGC8dPy63o?list=PLzdkWEtBit09tvr_3RRdSXHDm8Pw_kLTs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 04/12/16 4:08 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
Well you know what happens with the clubs that always get the best recruits. Each recruit is promised the world in order to get them on board. Promises are bound to get broken. Does that constitute mistreatment?
Like I know Maryland promised Carlie Wagner she would be a starter from the Day 1. I don't think there's any conceivable way she would have started from Day 1.
Look at the picture Swish Appeal used on this story. Are they trying to project an image? I'm surprised they didn't use a picture of Tyler Summitt slapping a player on the butt for their story on him. |
I'm beginning to think that Swish Appeal is the National Enquirer of the WBB world.
Now there's word that some of Loyola's players are asking for releases on the same sort of grounds....including Taylor Johnson and Taylor Manuel. One of the complaints is that Sheryl Swoopes tried to "control their social lives". Wonder what that's about? I know there are some coaches who won't let their players use Twitter and/or other social media during the season. Or maybe they didn't like strict curfews, who knows? I suppose we'll hear more before long.
As Gilda Radner used to say, it's always something.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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greatgator
Joined: 20 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 04/12/16 5:23 pm ::: |
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I wonder how far back they will go in the investigation. Will they reach out to former players?
Would pressuring an injured player to practice and play constitute mistreatment?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 04/12/16 5:30 pm ::: |
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When I was in high school in Washington, we were in PE and we were sort of standing around the teacher. One noted goof-off was talking -- so the PE teacher, a guy, just hauled off and slapped him.
Got his attention ...
When I was in high school in California, we had to stand on numbers in PE, a few feet in front of the closed-up bleachers. A kid was talking, for the umpteenth time, and the PE teacher, a former national level wrestler, picked him up by the throat and slammed him into the bleachers.
Got his attention ...
Now all that was perfectly fine back then, and we thought nothing of it.
In the '90s, it was perfectly acceptable to scream at kids coming off the court during high school games, and make them feel as small as possible. In practice, it was sometimes worse. Some coaches would lock the gym doors, and the language was not PG.
In our area, at least, the days of perp-walk screaming at teen-age kids for turning the ball over are long gone, and any kind of physical contact would be cause for dismissal.
So maybe the pendulum has swung a little too far, but one thing the French philosophers of several decades ago isolated was the role of power and privilege in all social interactions -- and from them, we have tried to limit just how much power and privilege can be asserted, and where the boundaries are.
I don't know what's happening at Duke and Nebraska. I wasn't there, and neither was anyone else on this board. It could be trumped-up, it could be justified, but that's the world we live in, and that's the world people coach in. If you can't deal with the new rules, with the new boundaries on power, then you can't coach.
You pays yer money, you takes yer choice ...
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/12/16 5:38 pm ::: |
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| greatgator wrote: |
I wonder how far back they will go in the investigation. Will they reach out to former players?
Would pressuring an injured player to practice and play constitute mistreatment? |
I would think knowingly playing an injured player would definitely qualify.
But most schools have pretty structured protocols that require medical clearance and don't leave much room for ambiguity these days. I think that's probably not too likely.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 04/12/16 5:55 pm ::: |
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There's also a reality that wherever the line actually is drawn, there will be somebody who feels insulted or slighted or "mistreated" by words or conduct well short of that line.
Some people expect to be coddled.
I expect that's in part why both Auriemma and McGraw have spoken recently about the importance of culture and recruiting players who fit in. Even so, neither is immune from transfers.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/12/16 6:39 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
"Mistreatment" is not just about using harsh language or a tone in practice.
It can range from things like scheduling four hour practices in the middle of finals and not respecting students-athlete schedules.
It can involve violation of confidentiality of a player's medical records/treatment sessions.
It can involve lying to the administration and covering up one's own conduct to distract from a poor performance and get an assistant coach fired as the scapegoat. |
Great examples. Here's another -
Telling a player that watching them play makes her want to throw up and that the player is such a whiny wimp they don't have a bat's chance in hell of making it in their chosen profession. |
You think that amounts to actionable player mistreatment? Seriously?
Well, that explains a lot. |
Yeah, just keep ASSuming, Art. You think we're gonna share anything real while an investigation is active? It's pretty clear why you get into arguments with virtually everybody. It's the modus operandi.
Let's put it like this: if the players and former staff really tell it, there is no way JPM should remain in charge of this program.
Remember this everyone - you might never know the details, but there is plenty that has happened that would fit anybody's definition of true mistreatment. This is NOT about players expecting to be "coddled." You can just smash that little theory about what's been happening at Duke. Sick people should not be in charge of other people - especially young people. There's a reason that NO alum come back to visit the coach. Take that diploma and RUN. Or - more often now - RUN without the diploma.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
~rAf
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