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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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 Posted: 01/22/16 4:12 pm ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
| Shades wrote: |
| You also seem to be forgetting about Lexie Brown in next year's equation, which should help with Duke's lack of on court leadership. She should be already assimilated with the team by the start of the season. She'll be a key player for Duke. I see definite improvement in next year's club. |
Let's not forget Duke's recent history of attrition, though. Yes, they add Brown, but who gets driven away? They already lost Kendall Cooper this season, and I have a hard time believing that all 5 of those Freshmen guards stay. What happens if Duke bottoms out this season and Stevens or Greenwell decide to try for greener pastures? If it happened with Alexis Jones it could happen again. |
| Quote: |
| "I've been blessed to play in two good programs and learn things from both." --Alexis Jones |
| Quote: |
| "I had a great experience there, and it's nothing I regret," Jones said of her two years at Duke. "I learned things I probably wouldn't have learned otherwise, and I brought that back with me."" -- Alexis Jones |
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/14576221/for-baylor-lady-bears-alexis-jones-playing-closer-home-was-best-all
Doesn't sound like she was "driven away" to me. Sounds like she was homesick.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 01/22/16 5:35 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
Last 7 years of Goestenkors vs. 8.5 years of McCallie:
Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 14-14 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 7-27 (20.59 percent) [including games in 2015-2016 to date]
Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 19-34 (35.85 percent) [including games in 2015-2016 to date]
Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 58-46 (55.77 percent) [including games in 2015-2016 to date]
Overall record:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 225-53 (80.94 percent) [229-59 (79.51 percent) including games in 2015-2016 to date]
ACC record:
Goestenkors: 98-8 (92.45 percent)
McCallie: 100-22 (81.97 percent) [103-25 (80.46 percent) including games in 2015-2016 to date]
NCAA record:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite Eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 18-8 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, six years at least making the Sweet 16, two second round losses)
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/22/16 5:48 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
Duke though...so much talent and no results. McCallie will not survuve missing the tournament, and shouldn't. She's had 9 seasons now and has never come close to replicating the elite status Duke enjoyed under Goestinkors. |
Is averaging a finish better than the Sweet Sixteen really "not even coming close" to averaging an Elite Eight? |
Last 7 years of Goestenkors vs. 8.5 years of McCallie. |
Since Goestenkors was at Duke for 15 years, why did you compare her last 7 years with 8.5 years of McCallie?
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/22/16 5:51 pm ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| Their recruiting is still on point but she can't seem to coach up to her player's potential, IMO. |
If I get the time I am gonna try and look at the different draft positions of Geostenkors and McCallies players. Just looking at the top 3 of Geostenkors - Beard #2, Currie #3 and Harding #1, I don't think McCallie's players can match that. I think her highest was last year with Elizabeth Williams at #4. |
True, however of those 4, Williams was the highest ranked recruit coming out of high school (in fact if I remember correctly Beard was in like the Mid 30s). Which implies to me that Goestinkors was also better at developing her players. Heck, Williams' freshman year was probably the best of her career at Duke, and very little was done to improve her game thereafter. If it's possible, she may have actually regressed as a player under McCallie. |
There are multiple possibilities for how a player can be higher ranked coming out of college than they were in high school. Geno Auriemma, in talking about Beard said that somebody should be ashamed - it was either the ratings services or the coaches like himself who overlooked her. Suggesting that she had the talent all along. But that would still be good for Geostenkers abilities - not that she developed Beard, but that she saw the talent.
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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| Posted: 01/22/16 8:09 pm ::: |
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| People knock McCallie but she made it to the national championship at Michigan State where I don't think she had a loaded team and she has won everywhere she has been. We all want more parity in WBB but the moment any traditional power loses a few games, like Tenn or Duke, its the end of the world, which gets old.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 01/22/16 9:53 pm ::: |
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| The Lady Griz of Montana have got to be included here after starting conference play 4-3 despite being picked to finish first.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 01/22/16 10:24 pm ::: |
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| Shades wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
As far as I can tell with a brief search, Duke's recruiting class for 2016 is Leonna Odom from Chaminade, a very talented player who's gone to a couple high schools and is not known for consistent effort.
If that's the case, it doesn't appear that Duke is primed to take a leap forward, great or otherwise, next year. Which leads to the question: How long is McCallie's contract? Would the Duke administration be willing to eat some of it? Or is a change really needed? |
You think the answer for Duke is more and better youth? They had 5 true freshmen on this year's team plus a redshirt freshman.
You also seem to be forgetting about Lexie Brown in next year's equation, which should help with Duke's lack of on court leadership. She should be already assimilated with the team by the start of the season. She'll be a key player for Duke. I see definite improvement in next year's club. |
Considering that this year's team is setting records and is now well out of the top 25, saying they'll be better next year is faint praise. It could be re-stated that they will be "less bad" next year. And let's not forget the (unwarranted) excitement about how "exciting" this year's team would be with such highly rated guards. I said then that McCallie can ruin any player, no matter how talented. This year's team is even worse than I thought they'd be. It's downright painful to watch such talented and great kids look like high school players and watch their expressions and posture change through the season. Same thing happens every season.
The reason to compare Coach G's last 7 years with McCallie's 8 at Duke is the talent levels of the teams are more similar. The first Duke team to reach the FF in 1999 did not have any real stars, but that run started bringing in the stars. McCallie inherited a team with 8 McD AA's and has recruited higher ranked players since her third year at Duke. When Coach G arrived at Duke, Duke was the basement team of the league, never even winning a game in the ACC tournament.
Pinning next year's hope on a transfer is about as silly as it was to talk about how great this year's team would be. McCallie can take the air out of any player, no matter who, and no matter how much they've proven. Lexie: meet Abby Waner, who became a shadow of the player she had been. Mark my words.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 4041
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| Posted: 01/23/16 8:47 am ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| People knock McCallie but she made it to the national championship at Michigan State where I don't think she had a loaded team and she has won everywhere she has been. We all want more parity in WBB but the moment any traditional power loses a few games, like Tenn or Duke, its the end of the world, which gets old. |
While I cannot explain her success at Michigan St. (except that lightning can strike anywhere once), I do not think that Coach P. has shown that she is an elite coach, as her record vs. other top programs indicates (see CamrnCrz1974's post above). She has an inherent recruiting advantage over most any program (due to Duke's stature and location), and has apparently recruited very well, but has been unable to translate recruiting success into winning games vs. top competition. Why was she so successful before she arrived at Duke? It may be an excellent example of the Peter principle.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 01/23/16 12:53 pm ::: |
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| Fighting Artichoke wrote: |
| She has an inherent recruiting advantage over most any program (due to Duke's stature and location), and has apparently recruited very well, but has been unable to translate recruiting success into winning games vs. top competition. Why was she so successful before she arrived at Duke? It may be an excellent example of the Peter principle. |
The Peter Principle is when someone gets promoted to a different position (different job duties) , based on success at a previous position, and while great at the previous position, they aren't as suited to the new position. I think it applies best when going from worker to manager - a great engineer is promoted to engineering manager which has much different requirements and skillsets. In McCallie's case she is doing the same job she did at Michigan State. Although, she now is coaching and recruiting private school students versus state school students, so that could be a difference in job duties she isn't as suited to. Gail Geostenkors didn't replicate her Duke program success when she went the opposite route to Texas.
Stanford, which has an even better education reputation than Duke, seems to be having a harder time getting elite players to go there. I wonder if elite players care much about an elite education these days. Or if they care about it - it could be that they are trying to avoid it. Their primary goal may be to play in the WNBA and overseas and a college degree plays no part in that career choice.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 01/23/16 3:50 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
Last 7 years of Goestenkors vs. 8.5 years of McCallie. |
Since Goestenkors was at Duke for 15 years, why did you compare her last 7 years with 8.5 years of McCallie? |
Duke was at the bottom of the ACC when Goestenkors took over. Took time to build the program, making the Final Four in her seventh season.
McCallie took over a roster with eight high school All-Americans.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7385
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 01/23/16 9:34 pm ::: |
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| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| Their recruiting is still on point but she can't seem to coach up to her player's potential, IMO. |
If I get the time I am gonna try and look at the different draft positions of Geostenkors and McCallies players. Just looking at the top 3 of Geostenkors - Beard #2, Currie #3 and Harding #1, I don't think McCallie's players can match that. I think her highest was last year with Elizabeth Williams at #4. |
True, however of those 4, Williams was the highest ranked recruit coming out of high school (in fact if I remember correctly Beard was in like the Mid 30s). Which implies to me that Goestinkors was also better at developing her players. Heck, Williams' freshman year was probably the best of her career at Duke, and very little was done to improve her game thereafter. If it's possible, she may have actually regressed as a player under McCallie. |
There are multiple possibilities for how a player can be higher ranked coming out of college than they were in high school. Geno Auriemma, in talking about Beard said that somebody should be ashamed - it was either the ratings services or the coaches like himself who overlooked her. Suggesting that she had the talent all along. But that would still be good for Geostenkers abilities - not that she developed Beard, but that she saw the talent. |
Alana had an injury in high school so was under-ranked. But Coach G went to see her play and wrote "best basketball player I've ever seen." She started a "hard sell" on Alana who didn't want to go so far from home. So, I think Geno (or his assistants) need to shoulder the blame here. But, since they brought in Diana that year, I give them a pass. 
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/24/16 12:56 pm ::: |
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| Did Coach G. quit, or was she fired? It's been so long that I've forgotten. And if she was fired, why on earth......? Duke has totally gone down the tubes since. I actually liked her a lot, except for one episode which I've mentioned before and won't go into again, but I think she's found her niche now and doubt she would ever go back to college coaching.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 01/24/16 7:08 pm ::: |
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I would add Northwestern to this list now...they are 2-6 in the Big Ten after losing at home today to Indiana. They were ranked for several weeks this year and picked to be among the top teams in the B1G. That isn't happening and unless they get really hot, they aren't making the NCAA's either.
I'm sure this will be skipped over so we can keep the "Duke blows" segment of the thread continuing on and on...and on and on...and on and on.
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PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013
Posts: 1366
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| Posted: 01/24/16 7:59 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Did Coach G. quit, or was she fired? It's been so long that I've forgotten. And if she was fired, why on earth......? Duke has totally gone down the tubes since. I actually liked her a lot, except for one episode which I've mentioned before and won't go into again, but I think she's found her niche now and doubt she would ever go back to college coaching. |
She took a "better" job at Texas and underachieved in her seasons there.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7385
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 01/24/16 10:11 pm ::: |
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| PickledGinger wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Did Coach G. quit, or was she fired? It's been so long that I've forgotten. And if she was fired, why on earth......? Duke has totally gone down the tubes since. I actually liked her a lot, except for one episode which I've mentioned before and won't go into again, but I think she's found her niche now and doubt she would ever go back to college coaching. |
She took a "better" job at Texas and underachieved in her seasons there. |
More precisely, she was seriously under-appreciated by then AD Joe Alleva who was focused on the fact that her teams lost twice in the Championship Game. He made a token counter offer after she received the offer from Texas. Coach G wanted to go where she would be more appreciated, but it did not work out in Texas. You can check the number of injuries that decimated her teams, but she, herself left Texas with years on her contract due to being disappointed in what the team achieved. So, she left both teams.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7852
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/24/16 11:26 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| PickledGinger wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Did Coach G. quit, or was she fired? It's been so long that I've forgotten. And if she was fired, why on earth......? Duke has totally gone down the tubes since. I actually liked her a lot, except for one episode which I've mentioned before and won't go into again, but I think she's found her niche now and doubt she would ever go back to college coaching. |
She took a "better" job at Texas and underachieved in her seasons there. |
More precisely, she was seriously under-appreciated by then AD Joe Alleva who was focused on the fact that her teams lost twice in the Championship Game. He made a token counter offer after she received the offer from Texas. Coach G wanted to go where she would be more appreciated, but it did not work out in Texas. You can check the number of injuries that decimated her teams, but she, herself left Texas with years on her contract due to being disappointed in what the team achieved. So, she left both teams. |
Pity, that. And a poor decision on both Alleva's part and hers, IMNSHO. Probably not a good one in leaving Texas, either, although I have heard it whispered that recruiting was not going well for her there because it's all about "who you know" in Texas and she apparently didn't know "the right people" or some such muck.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 01/25/16 10:52 am ::: |
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I seem to recall that there were a lot of rumblings amongst the Duke faithful about Gail G not being able to win the big one and that they needed to get someone in there that could. I could be "misremembering", but I don't think so.
Also, can this thread get back to all underachieving teams and not just a thread about Duke/Coach P/Coach G?
Art's original teams:
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Cal
Tennessee
Duke
LSU
Dayton
There were several others listed, including Princeton, Marist, Seton Hall, etc...and I recently brought up Northwestern.
Or, maybe this thread had run its' course and there is nothing left to discuss but Duke...I don't know.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 01/25/16 11:07 am ::: |
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Cal is pretty much in free fall right now, having lost six in a row (I think).
They had four guards on the roster at the start of the year, and are now down to one: A 5-5 freshman (who's pretty good, but still ...)
Two of the guards, including a returning starter who was expected to be one of their better players, left the team before the season, and now another didn't make the last road trip and there's been no word on why or whether she'll return.
It's pretty hard to play a freshman guard for 40 minutes every night, especially when you're playing a three/four next to her.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 01/25/16 11:24 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
I seem to recall that there were a lot of rumblings amongst the Duke faithful about Gail G not being able to win the big one and that they needed to get someone in there that could. I could be "misremembering", but I don't think so.
Also, can this thread get back to all underachieving teams and not just a thread about Duke/Coach P/Coach G?
Art's original teams:
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Cal
Tennessee
Duke
LSU
Dayton
There were several others listed, including Princeton, Marist, Seton Hall, etc...and I recently brought up Northwestern.
Or, maybe this thread had run its' course and there is nothing left to discuss but Duke...I don't know. |
Well LSU beat UGA yesterday. Don't think that gets LSU off this list, but combined with losing to Bama last week it might well earn UGA a spot on the list. Are wins over Miss St and FL enough to save them?
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bullsky
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: 01/25/16 11:57 am ::: |
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Northwestern
Tennessee (though I did not have as high expectations as some)
Duke
Florida State
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/25/16 3:03 pm ::: |
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Dayton...but they lost Kelly Austria
Northwestern
Tennessee...sigh
Princeton
Florida State
Cal
Kentucky
But seriously, Duke and LSU? Uh-uh. Not in my not
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7852
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 01/25/16 3:05 pm ::: |
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Dayton...but they lost Kelly Austria
Northwestern
Tennessee...sigh
Princeton
Florida State
Cal
Kentucky
But seriously, Duke and LSU? Uh-uh. Not in my notebook. I didn't expect much out of either one of them, sadly. Or Penn State. So lets start another thread about teams we've been pleasantly surprised by, somewhere else.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 01/25/16 3:22 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Cal is pretty much in free fall right now, having lost six in a row (I think).
They had four guards on the roster at the start of the year, and are now down to one: A 5-5 freshman (who's pretty good, but still ...)
Two of the guards, including a returning starter who was expected to be one of their better players, left the team before the season, and now another didn't make the last road trip and there's been no word on why or whether she'll return.
It's pretty hard to play a freshman guard for 40 minutes every night, especially when you're playing a three/four next to her. |
Yes, they are basically screwed by the lack of guards, but I notice that nobody was giving Duke a break last year when they were at least that bad off trying to use the completely unsuitable Greenwell as a point guard because they had no 9lone else.
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UK1996
Joined: 03 Sep 2015
Posts: 403
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| Posted: 01/25/16 8:54 pm ::: |
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[quote="summertime blues"]Dayton...but they lost Kelly Austria
Northwestern
Tennessee...sigh
Princeton
Florida State
Cal
Kentucky
But seriously, Duke and LSU? Uh-uh. Not in my notebook. I didn't expect much out of either one of them, sadly. Or Penn State. So lets start another thread about teams we've been pleasantly surprised by, somewhere else.[/quote]
I'm not sure how Kentucky is a disappointment. We had 4 transfers,3 right before the season began, 1 after. They were ranked 18th in the preseason poll, now they are ranked 12th.
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 4041
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| Posted: 01/25/16 9:31 pm ::: |
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| UK1996 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
Dayton...but they lost Kelly Austria
Northwestern
Tennessee...sigh
Princeton
Florida State
Cal
Kentucky
But seriously, Duke and LSU? Uh-uh. Not in my notebook. I didn't expect much out of either one of them, sadly. Or Penn State. So lets start another thread about teams we've been pleasantly surprised by, somewhere else. |
I'm not sure how Kentucky is a disappointment. We had 4 transfers,3 right before the season began, 1 after. They were ranked 18th in the preseason poll, now they are ranked 12th. |
I agree, UK. Kentucky has not disappointed this season, especially considering their attrition right before the season.
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