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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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 Posted: 12/16/15 11:11 pm ::: |
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The players do look a bit undisciplined and uninspired but they are are an injury-ridden team.
I think a fairer assessment needs to be made once SEC play starts.
BTW, their lowest seed was 5th in 2009 after they won the NC in 2008. In 2009 as a 5 seed, they lost in the first round which was also their earliest exit.
This team will probably fare much better.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 12/16/15 11:11 pm ::: |
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| I have to admit the offense is pretty ugly. It's pretty much Diamond trying to go one on five about 70% of the time; try to force the ball into a Russell who cant' seem to move about 15% of the time; someone else going one on one 10% of the time; and random movement or non-movement the other 5%. And the defense seems to be just to try to use athleticism to make the other team make a mistake. I suspect it's a combination Holly/player thing but whatever the reason, it looks a hot mess...and Diamond isn't quite as awesome as she (and Antonelli) seems to think she is.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 12/16/15 11:49 pm ::: |
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| PRballer wrote: |
The players do look a bit undisciplined and uninspired but they are are an injury-ridden team.
I think a fairer assessment needs to be made once SEC play starts.
BTW, their lowest seed was 5th in 2009 after they won the NC in 2008. In 2009 as a 5 seed, they lost in the first round which was also their earliest exit.
This team will probably fare much better. |
I don't think you can blame this on injuries. Everyone's back now except Jones and Middleton. Jones has rarely contributed much, and Middleton is just barely making an impact as a sophomore.
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 418
Location: away from here
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| Posted: 12/17/15 12:04 am ::: |
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| Worst coach I've ever seen. EVER. She could coach the 1992 Dream Team and still not win.
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ripleydc
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Posts: 4778
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: 12/17/15 8:22 am ::: |
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| Does anyone know whether, in recent history, a top 25 team has named a new coach who was never a head coach before?
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thefutureisbright
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Posts: 4169
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| Posted: 12/17/15 9:17 am ::: |
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| ripleydc wrote: |
| Does anyone know whether, in recent history, a top 25 team has named a new coach who was never a head coach before? |
Final Rankings in 2006-2007 had Louisville at #25 ... Walz was never HC prior to being hired in Spring 2007 ... they were preseason #21/#23
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/17/15 9:22 am ::: |
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The seven players for Tenn with most of the minutes last night were ranked 1,3,5,6,12,21 and 42 by Hoopgurlz coming out of high school. No team in the country other than UConn can come close to that collection of HS talent. That's actually an amazing group.
That might lead one to believe that "lack of talent" is not the problem.
(Btw, it's Russell 1, Deshields 3, Graves 5, Nared 6, Cooper 12, Carter 21, Reynolds 42)
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kool-aide
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 12/17/15 10:18 am ::: |
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| Holly may not be Hall of Fame caliber coach but I don't think the Lady Vols' problem right now is primarily a Holly based problem.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/17/15 10:38 am ::: |
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| kool-aide wrote: |
| Holly may not be Hall of Fame caliber coach but I don't think the Lady Vols' problem right now is primarily a Holly based problem. |
What do you think the problem is?
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 12/17/15 11:10 am ::: |
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1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 12/17/15 11:17 am ::: |
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Okay, so a few things.
Check out the Lady Vols Instagram feed. They did a little pre-game "cheer" in the hallway to promote the pre-game before Stanford; it's only the players, no coaches.
No on seemed like they wanted to be there. Dunbar's body language was not in the cheer and a few of the others just looked uninspired as well.
I also noticed the bench during a recent home game - just look at the players' body language. They are not engaged on the bench and half of them look downright bored.
So is that a locker room problem? Is there a cancer on the team? Clearly high school recruits came to Knoxville, saw the way things were, and it was all a big "no thanks" this year.
It's likely way more than just Holly...
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
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| Posted: 12/17/15 11:22 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction. |
To your first point, Tara Vanderveer is a proven winner and a Naismith HOF coach. She could develop Tennessee quickly.
Second point on the next coach. As you always call out, who is the best fit in the other direction? Tyler Summitt and Kellie Harper are not yet ready.
If you're Hart, do you go outside the program to get an up-and-comer who is known for developing talent and recruiting?
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7821
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/17/15 11:23 am ::: |
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| WNBA 09 wrote: |
| How much more of this stuff do we need to watch from warlick she is obviously a horrible coach you have all the talent on your team all the top 25 talent you can think of in the country and yet you produce a team that's probably not even a top 25 team at this point warlick cannot develop players and she claims she preaches defense, but the defense sucks where is the offense you have all this offensive fire power and you can't even draw up a play to score. This comes back to who? not the players but the coach. She slowly but obviously destroying andl empire. Has there ever even been a Coaches Poll Or AP poll in WCBB History without Tennessee in it? Im Expecting all time lows this season. Whats the lowest seed the lady vols have been? Warlick the Warlock Is Making UT Bball No attractive to watch anymore |
I am not defending Holly this time, but good grief, can you PLEASE write a post with something resembling proper sentences and clean up your spelling and punctuation? Otherwise who is going to bother reading it?
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/17/15 11:26 am ::: |
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| PRballer wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction. |
To your first point, Tara Vanderveer is a proven winner and a Naismith HOF coach. She could develop Tennessee quickly.
Second point on the next coach. As you always call out, who is the best fit in the other direction? Tyler Summitt and Kellie Harper are not yet ready.
If you're Hart, do you go outside the program to get an up-and-comer who is known for developing talent and recruiting? |
If you'd been around Tennessee any appreciable amount of time, you would have understood by now that Dave Hart simply DOES NOT CARE about the women's athletic program at all.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ThreeBall25
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/17/15 12:37 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction. |
No stake in this discussion, but how often does Stanford lose at home? To anyone? Not very.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/17/15 1:16 pm ::: |
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| dtsnms wrote: |
No stake in this discussion, but how often does Stanford lose at home? To anyone? Not very. |
Is that to what you're attributing last night's result?
But anyhow, last year they lost 4 games at home. (And they lost at Tenn by 19). And this year they've already lost to Santa Clara at home.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
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| Posted: 12/17/15 1:46 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| PRballer wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction. |
To your first point, Tara Vanderveer is a proven winner and a Naismith HOF coach. She could develop Tennessee quickly.
Second point on the next coach. As you always call out, who is the best fit in the other direction? Tyler Summitt and Kellie Harper are not yet ready.
If you're Hart, do you go outside the program to get an up-and-comer who is known for developing talent and recruiting? |
If you'd been around Tennessee any appreciable amount of time, you would have understood by now that Dave Hart simply DOES NOT CARE about the women's athletic program at all. |
From reading about the team from afar, that sentiment certainly rings true. I would imagine that when he was hired in 2011, his main priorities were to fix the revenue-generating men's sports, football and basketball.
Will be interesting to see how his tenure at UT is defined by how the Lady Vols progress/regress.
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PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
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| Posted: 12/17/15 1:46 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| PRballer wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
1) Compare the talent levels of Stanford and Tennessee.
2) Give Tara Holly's roster, and Holly Tara's roster, and what's the final score?
3) Rankings coming out of high school are not always definitive, but they are revealing. If player rankings were done again on the same group of athletes, how would the Tennessee players fare? Would they go up, or go down? How would players for other major programs do?
My guess would be that for most programs, it's about a wash. That is, some players rise and some players fall. A few coaches would be clearly positive, developing talent as well as recruiting it. The evidence strongly suggests that Holly Warlick is part of the group that sees its talent decline in relative value over their college careers.
I don't know Warlick and I have no strong feelings about Tennessee, but from the outside, it sure looks like it's time for the Vols to go in another direction. |
To your first point, Tara Vanderveer is a proven winner and a Naismith HOF coach. She could develop Tennessee quickly.
Second point on the next coach. As you always call out, who is the best fit in the other direction? Tyler Summitt and Kellie Harper are not yet ready.
If you're Hart, do you go outside the program to get an up-and-comer who is known for developing talent and recruiting? |
If you'd been around Tennessee any appreciable amount of time, you would have understood by now that Dave Hart simply DOES NOT CARE about the women's athletic program at all. |
From reading about the team from afar, that sentiment certainly rings true. I would imagine that when he was hired in 2011, his main priorities were to fix the revenue-generating men's sports, football and basketball.
Will be interesting to see how his tenure at UT is defined by how the Lady Vols progress/regress.
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LitePal
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 613
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| Posted: 12/17/15 1:48 pm ::: |
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| Just a reminder that many Lady Vol fans were begging for Nikki Caldwell a few years back. We haven't heard that lately. Be careful what you wish for.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/17/15 1:59 pm ::: |
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| LitePal wrote: |
| Just a reminder that many Lady Vol fans were begging for Nikki Caldwell a few years back. We haven't heard that lately. Be careful what you wish for. |
Do you see a trend there?
I never ceased to be amazed at Tenn fans who immediately jump to Caldwell, or Jody Adams, or Kellie Harper, or Tyler Summit, or someone else who is named only because they played for or worked for or were raised by Pat, but in reality shouldn't be considered to be in the top 100 candidates.
That's how Tenn got into this mess in the first place. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 12/17/15 2:38 pm ::: |
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It does seem pretty obvious that there are chemistry issues...my guess is cliques, but really don't know anything for sure. However, Holly wouldn't be the first coach to have to deal with this kind of problem. There was clearly a problem between DD and teammates at UNC, so one wonders if that hasn't carried over - new team, similar result. Regardless, we know Pat wouldn't have put up with any nonsense so ultimately it comes back to how the coach deals with it. They have a lot of talent and potential so somehow it could all come together - winning definitely helps chemistry issues while losing exacerbates them.
I thought it interesting BTW that McCall said (according to Peck last night) that she wanted to become more of a leader like Deshields! (this after playing together at the University games)
_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
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dtbtbtb
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 122
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| Posted: 12/17/15 2:47 pm ::: |
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| It seems to me that DD thinks she is the best player in WBB and as such plays a very "me" type of game. She clearly is very talented but it's hard to see how this team will get anywhere with that attitude
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zvyn3
Joined: 20 Jul 2013
Posts: 418
Location: away from here
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| Posted: 12/17/15 2:48 pm ::: |
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| LitePal wrote: |
| Just a reminder that many Lady Vol fans were begging for Nikki Caldwell a few years back. We haven't heard that lately. Be careful what you wish for. |
Actually, a lot of people still are. Why, I don't know.
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vickilz
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 138
Location: Chicago, IL
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| Posted: 12/17/15 3:54 pm ::: |
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| During the Stanford game the announcers were talking about Tara and mentioned she was a very good TEACHER. IMO, that's the problem for Holly, she knows basketball, she may know how to recruit talent, but I don't think she can TEACH the players her system. Creating a system or game plan is one thing, teaching it to the players, getting them to buy into the system is entirely different. Holly may be a decent coach, but definitely not a teacher. To be successful at the college level I think you need to be both.
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