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PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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Location: Chicago
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 Posted: 12/09/15 10:39 am ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
Did anyone expect anything different? Sorry to say this, but this is exactly the way Pat's teams played for many years, but they just had the fastest runners, highest leapers and workiest of the work horses. The Tennessee offense, in my 20+ years of watching WCBB was never a thing of beauty, which IMO, has been well documented by her numerous "observe sessions" and reaching out to people like Harry Peretta.
For years the Tennessee offense has looked like Rutgers with the best recruits, IMO. If you gave CViv Holdsclaw, Parker, Catch and all the other LV greats, she would have a few NC too. |
Yep.
If Summitt was still coaching, I think we would be watching the tarnishing of her legacy with diminishing results over time. In some ways, it speaks to just how good Candace Parker was that her teams won two titles.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66957
Location: Where the action is
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| Posted: 12/09/15 11:03 am ::: |
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| PUmatty wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
Did anyone expect anything different? Sorry to say this, but this is exactly the way Pat's teams played for many years, but they just had the fastest runners, highest leapers and workiest of the work horses. The Tennessee offense, in my 20+ years of watching WCBB was never a thing of beauty, which IMO, has been well documented by her numerous "observe sessions" and reaching out to people like Harry Peretta.
For years the Tennessee offense has looked like Rutgers with the best recruits, IMO. If you gave CViv Holdsclaw, Parker, Catch and all the other LV greats, she would have a few NC too. |
Yep.
If Summitt was still coaching, I think we would be watching the tarnishing of her legacy with diminishing results over time. In some ways, it speaks to just how good Candace Parker was that her teams won two titles. |
Nonsense. Summitt was a better offensive coach than Warlick or Stringer. In her last season before being diagnosed with Alzheimers, the LVs averaged 79 ppg on 46% shooting (38% from three). They haven't matched any of those numbers since.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 12/09/15 12:03 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| I stand by my original assessment. Holly Warlick is to Pat Summitt as Bill Guthridge is to Dean Smith. |
Except Guthridge made two Final Fours in his three years as UNC coach.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/09/15 3:06 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| I stand by my original assessment. Holly Warlick is to Pat Summitt as Bill Guthridge is to Dean Smith. |
Except Guthridge made two Final Fours in his three years as UNC coach. |
He also took over a team that had been to two Final Fours in the previous three years. Warlick's first three seasons are comparable to Pat's last three, just like Gut's were to Dean.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 12/09/15 7:40 pm ::: |
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| Some of us think that certain ND fans should just STFU. The other ones are just fine.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/09/15 7:52 pm ::: |
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| You realize of course that this thread trashing Holly was started by a desperate Tenn fan, and others have joined in. Indeed you seem to be the only defender. You can assume my question was addressed to the others.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18038
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 12/09/15 10:48 pm ::: |
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| Do I have to send you two to separate corners?
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Lillian Hidgepork
Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 104
Location: Down South
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| Posted: 12/10/15 8:43 am ::: |
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| UT has issues. That is undeniable. How do they correct it? Coach, strategy?
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 12/10/15 10:06 am ::: |
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| Lillian Hidgepork wrote: |
| UT has issues. That is undeniable. How do they correct it? Coach, strategy? |
Simple. Since the coach is unable/unwilling to implement a new strategy, it's time for a new coach.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 12/10/15 10:17 am ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ucbart wrote: |
Did anyone expect anything different? Sorry to say this, but this is exactly the way Pat's teams played for many years, but they just had the fastest runners, highest leapers and workiest of the work horses. The Tennessee offense, in my 20+ years of watching WCBB was never a thing of beauty, which IMO, has been well documented by her numerous "observe sessions" and reaching out to people like Harry Peretta.
For years the Tennessee offense has looked like Rutgers with the best recruits, IMO. If you gave CViv Holdsclaw, Parker, Catch and all the other LV greats, she would have a few NC too. |
Yep.
If Summitt was still coaching, I think we would be watching the tarnishing of her legacy with diminishing results over time. In some ways, it speaks to just how good Candace Parker was that her teams won two titles. |
Nonsense. Summitt was a better offensive coach than Warlick or Stringer. In her last season before being diagnosed with Alzheimers, the LVs averaged 79 ppg on 46% shooting (38% from three). They haven't matched any of those numbers since. |
For the last season she coached, the numbers were 74/44/34. The main difference from the previous season being, imo, the graduation of Bjorkland (a hefty 45% on 162 3FGA).
Bart condensed it- the LVs were always known for defense and offensive rebounds rather than offensive execution, efficiency, or aesthetics.
In Knoxville today, it's the same old shit.
Holly4Ever.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7854
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/10/15 10:31 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| You realize of course that this thread trashing Holly was started by a desperate Tenn fan, and others have joined in. Indeed you seem to be the only defender. You can assume my question was addressed to the others. |
I am not exactly "defending* Holly and staff. My position is one of watchful waiting. I have merely pointed out that it is early in the season and there is time to right the ship. You may not recall that the first of Pat's "three-peat" championship teams (1997) lost 10 games on their way to the championship, some of them rather badly. I remember similar handwringing and gnashing of teeth at that time. You most likely would not.
Secondarily, I have not *ever* made fun of your TEAM. I have on occasion made a joke about your coach but I do respect her. I don't make fun of your team. They are one of my other favorites. I don't even make fun of your fans. I did not appreciate your comments about Mercedes.
So get off my back and STAY off. Thank you for your attention.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 12/10/15 11:59 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| You may not recall that the first of Pat's "three-peat" championship teams (1997) lost 10 games on their way to the championship, some of them rather badly. |
Actually, it was the second of the three championship teams, not the first.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/10/15 12:48 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| You may not recall that the first of Pat's "three-peat" championship teams (1997) lost 10 games on their way to the championship, some of them rather badly. |
Actually, it was the second of the three championship teams, not the first. |
Right. But that was an AWFUL season, in any case...which is probably why I always want to make it the first.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 12/10/15 8:27 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| You may not recall that the first of Pat's "three-peat" championship teams (1997) lost 10 games on their way to the championship, some of them rather badly. |
Actually, it was the second of the three championship teams, not the first. |
Right. But that was an AWFUL season, in any case...which is probably why I always want to make it the first. |
And it was essentially Jolly's absence, and subsequent return, which accounted for how that LV season played out.
In fact, the Jolly story is remarkable, and is worth a revisit:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/31/sports/ultimate-reward-for-a-vol-guard-s-comeback.html
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 12/10/15 9:06 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| You may not recall that the first of Pat's "three-peat" championship teams (1997) lost 10 games on their way to the championship, some of them rather badly. |
Actually, it was the second of the three championship teams, not the first. |
Right. But that was an AWFUL season, in any case...which is probably why I always want to make it the first. |
And it was essentially Jolly's absence, and subsequent return, which accounted for how that LV season played out.
In fact, the Jolly story is remarkable, and is worth a revisit:
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/31/sports/ultimate-reward-for-a-vol-guard-s-comeback.html |
And Kellie, after trying to step into Kay Yow's shoes at NC State and finding that impossible, is now building a pretty decent program at Missouri State. She was a pretty amazing point guard and Pat said more than once that she would not be surprised to see her back at Tennessee one day. She always said that Kellie was the smartest player she ever coached.
Hmmmm.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 12/11/15 10:54 am ::: |
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I sympathize with Summertime Blues about Tennessee, because the glory days were so glorious that deviating from that formula seems to be abandoning what clearly worked for what might not.
From a distance, though, it seems like the time has come to make adjustments. John Wooden won his early titles with a 1-2-2 full court press, a defense that wouldn't work at all in today's game, and it seems that the Summitt system, like all systems, is slowly crumbling in the face of change.
Holly Warlick can not be expected to abandon that system, nor should she, as I can't see her, or any coach so enmeshed in a system, being able to make radical, or even significant, changes.
It appears that as long as Warlick is there, expectations (given the talent) will not be met because of the flaws in the system. That's not to say that the magic won't show up in this or some postseason for a Final Four run, but what has worked in the past isn't going to work consistently in the future at Tennessee.
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 12541
Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 12/12/15 6:31 pm ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Skyfan22 wrote: |
This was so terrible. Tired ball. She needs to go or I am done. Ready to cheer for ND or UConn (geno couldn't have been more gracious when we asked him to take his pic with our kids at the Sky game.) I'm also ready to cheer for Texas, now that TT is the asst coach. It is a shame that Tenn is gonna go the same route as La Tech.
Right the ship, fire Holly. Maybe they should look to the W. How about Mike thibault? I'm sure wash is not paying him close to what Tenn can. |
You want a WNBA coach? Hire Stephanie White. She would be a tremendous choice. |
Now that would be awesome!! I'd suffer through multiple losing seasons for Steph white! Then she can bring tamika on as asst. |
This.....
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Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
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| Posted: 12/13/15 4:54 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| You realize of course that this thread trashing Holly was started by a desperate Tenn fan, and others have joined in. Indeed you seem to be the only defender. You can assume my question was addressed to the others. |
Ha Art! I would not call myself a desperate TN fan! I am much better stepping back from the sport. ISO new team. Taking a break and maybe ready to depart.
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Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63810
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| Posted: 12/13/15 5:25 pm ::: |
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| Skyfan22 wrote: |
This was so terrible. Tired ball. She needs to go or I am done. Ready to cheer for ND or UConn (geno couldn't have been more gracious when we asked him to take his pic with our kids at the Sky game.) I'm also ready to cheer for Texas, now that TT is the asst coach. It is a shame that Tenn is gonna go the same route as La Tech.
Right the ship, fire Holly. Maybe they should look to the W. How about Mike thibault? I'm sure wash is not paying him close to what Tenn can. |
Reeve is between contracts right NOW (unless she's been recently signed) and she has expressed interest in going the big-money college route. But I suppose the timing would be bad by the time Tennessee made any kind of decision .
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 12/13/15 5:39 pm ::: |
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| Quentin Hillsman gets NO fan support at Syracuse whatever, but he manages to get stuff done anyway. Wonder what he could do at a decent program.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 12/13/15 6:24 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Quentin Hillsman gets NO fan support at Syracuse whatever, but he manages to get stuff done anyway. Wonder what he could do at a decent program. |
He just took a lot of heat for refusing to play UConn. I guess he'd fit in well at Tenn.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Queens
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| Posted: 12/13/15 8:19 pm ::: |
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| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Quentin Hillsman gets NO fan support at Syracuse whatever, but he manages to get stuff done anyway. Wonder what he could do at a decent program. |
He just took a lot of heat for refusing to play UConn. I guess he'd fit in well at Tenn. |
Hell, he wouldn't have to change much of his wardrobe, either.
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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WNBA 09
Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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Location: Dallas , Texas
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| Posted: 12/16/15 10:17 pm ::: |
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| How much more of this stuff do we need to watch from warlick she is obviously a horrible coach you have all the talent on your team all the top 25 talent you can think of in the country and yet you produce a team that's probably not even a top 25 team at this point warlick cannot develop players and she claims she preaches defense, but the defense sucks where is the offense you have all this offensive fire power and you can't even draw up a play to score. This comes back to who? not the players but the coach. She slowly but obviously destroying andl empire. Has there ever even been a Coaches Poll Or AP poll in WCBB History without Tennessee in it? Im Expecting all time lows this season. Whats the lowest seed the lady vols have been? Warlick the Warlock Is Making UT Bball No attractive to watch anymore
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