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pilight



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PostPosted: 11/17/15 2:08 pm    ::: Coaches poll out Reply Reply with quote

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/2/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Baylor up to #4

Stanford up to #10

Louisville down to #16

California in, North Carolina out



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myrtle



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PostPosted: 11/17/15 2:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

why would Stanford move up when they struggle to beat Gonzaga?



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FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 11/17/15 3:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

myrtle wrote:
why would Stanford move up when they struggle to beat Gonzaga?


I'd imagine it's because Gonzaga has the name recognition, and it's tough to beat the Zags in Spokane. I don't think Stanford played particularly well, but anytime someone escapes Spokane with a win, especially with Gonzagas tourney runs, it's significant.

The issue is, that this version of Gonzaga is not the one that lost to Tennessee by four points in the Sweet 16 last year in Spokane.


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PostPosted: 11/17/15 3:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

One could also argue that Stanford moved up as a result of the strength shown by the PAC-12 this far. If Stanford is supposedly the second best team in the conference, and Cal, UCLA, and others are putting up strong early performances, there is some respect being garnered for the PAC. The only loss for the PAC 12 so far is in overtime to Kentucky, with wins over Gonzaga, Louisville, and North Carolina to show for it among others.


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PostPosted: 11/17/15 3:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Stanford only jumped one team that didn't lose (Mississippi State). They benefited from Florida State, Ohio State, and Louisville dropping behind them after losses.



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PostPosted: 11/24/15 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/3/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous at #1

Texas A&M up to #9

California up to #15

Stanford down to #16

Michigan State and Seton Hall in
Louisville and Princeton out



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 2:12 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/4/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Maryland up to #5

Seton hall up to #21

South Florida down to #23

Syracuse in, George Washington out



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IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 3:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 3:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


West Virginia and Gonzaga haven't looked particularly strong this year. I'd say that Stanford's wins over Dayton and George Washington and heck--a revitalized Purdue look much stronger. Stanford also gets the benefit of being a n established big-name program with Tara at the helm. It's been a promising start for the Women of Troy--but remember they've beaten a Gonzaga program that lost to North Carolina, and West Virginia lost to that Gonzaga team. Sorry, that's just not going to cut it. USC will likely get a ranking due to a guady record in a few weeks--but their first real test will be against the Bruins in conference play in late December.


IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 4:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


West Virginia and Gonzaga haven't looked particularly strong this year. I'd say that Stanford's wins over Dayton and George Washington and heck--a revitalized Purdue look much stronger. Stanford also gets the benefit of being a n established big-name program with Tara at the helm. It's been a promising start for the Women of Troy--but remember they've beaten a Gonzaga program that lost to North Carolina, and West Virginia lost to that Gonzaga team. Sorry, that's just not going to cut it. USC will likely get a ranking due to a guady record in a few weeks--but their first real test will be against the Bruins in conference play in late December.



Explain to me why Mississippi State, also at 5-0 is ranked 9th.
Mississippi State has beaten the following powerhouse name programs
Samford, Grambling, Miss. Valley State, Norfolk State, and Savannah State.
They have a combined 7-19 record and are all from weak conferences. Their coach has been at their program as long as Cooper has been at USC.

I am not asking why Southern California isnt ranked, I am asking why they have not one vote.

These polls are BS, and as Clay often says, I doubt the actual coaches vote for the teams, but rather the SID's do.


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PostPosted: 12/01/15 4:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


West Virginia and Gonzaga haven't looked particularly strong this year. I'd say that Stanford's wins over Dayton and George Washington and heck--a revitalized Purdue look much stronger. Stanford also gets the benefit of being a n established big-name program with Tara at the helm. It's been a promising start for the Women of Troy--but remember they've beaten a Gonzaga program that lost to North Carolina, and West Virginia lost to that Gonzaga team. Sorry, that's just not going to cut it. USC will likely get a ranking due to a guady record in a few weeks--but their first real test will be against the Bruins in conference play in late December.



Explain to me why Mississippi State, also at 5-0 is ranked 9th.
Mississippi State has beaten the following powerhouse name programs
Samford, Grambling, Miss. Valley State, Norfolk State, and Savannah State.
They have a combined 7-19 record and are all from weak conferences. Their coach has been at their program as long as Cooper has been at USC.

I am not asking why Southern California isnt ranked, I am asking why they have not one vote.

These polls are BS, and as Clay often says, I doubt the actual coaches vote for the teams, but rather the SID's do.


Mississippi State finished last season 27-7 and people believe they are better this season for some reason, while USC went 15-15. State is a proven quantity from last season with much of the cast returning. USC still has a lot to prove--and while I agree that early signs are promising, there is still work to be done for the Women of Troy as they move forward. Whether we like it or not--the results of last season do have some bearing on where a team begins a season ranked--the good news for the Women of Troy is that if they want to be ranked, they will have the chance to prove themselves come Pac-12 play.


IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 4:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


West Virginia and Gonzaga haven't looked particularly strong this year. I'd say that Stanford's wins over Dayton and George Washington and heck--a revitalized Purdue look much stronger. Stanford also gets the benefit of being a n established big-name program with Tara at the helm. It's been a promising start for the Women of Troy--but remember they've beaten a Gonzaga program that lost to North Carolina, and West Virginia lost to that Gonzaga team. Sorry, that's just not going to cut it. USC will likely get a ranking due to a guady record in a few weeks--but their first real test will be against the Bruins in conference play in late December.



Explain to me why Mississippi State, also at 5-0 is ranked 9th.
Mississippi State has beaten the following powerhouse name programs
Samford, Grambling, Miss. Valley State, Norfolk State, and Savannah State.
They have a combined 7-19 record and are all from weak conferences. Their coach has been at their program as long as Cooper has been at USC.

I am not asking why Southern California isnt ranked, I am asking why they have not one vote.

These polls are BS, and as Clay often says, I doubt the actual coaches vote for the teams, but rather the SID's do.


Mississippi State finished last season 27-7 and people believe they are better this season for some reason, while USC went 15-15. State is a proven quantity from last season with much of the cast returning. USC still has a lot to prove--and while I agree that early signs are promising, there is still work to be done for the Women of Troy as they move forward. Whether we like it or not--the results of last season do have some bearing on where a team begins a season ranked--the good news for the Women of Troy is that if they want to be ranked, they will have the chance to prove themselves come Pac-12 play.


Based on how you finished last season why have Idaho, who were 14-15 last season get 2 votes and Wake Forest who were 13-20 last season, and have three straight losing seasons, get 5 votes? Neither of these programs are known as powerful programs, at least in recent years. Both are 5-1 this year, not undefeated. Also, can add in Oregon at 13-17 last season, with 14 votes this year.

I say coaches do not like CCD at USC.


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PostPosted: 12/01/15 5:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The reason is that Miss St was 11/12 in the preseason polls while USC got nothing. Why? Simple. Miss St was considered the 3rd best team in the SEC while USC had at least 5 P-12 teams ahead of them. These polls have a lot to do with conferences. Writers who write for certain conferences and coaches/SID's are going to tout their own conferences.

And once you get ranked it matters little who you play. Win, even against nothings as in the case of Miss St, you stay there, and even move up as those above you lose.

Some say that these December rankings are meaningless but every March the committee looks at a team's "wins against ranked teams". Seeding is huge in the tournament. Get a 1-4 seed and it's a ticket to the S16. Get seeded 6th and you play a 3 seed in your second game .... on their court.


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 5:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
Not one vote for Southern California.
They beat Santa Clara, that Stanford lost too.
they beat Gonzaga, at Gonzaga, as Stanford did.
They beat West Virginia, not sure what that means.
5 - 0.
Not one vote.
I guess Coach Cooper isnt liked very much by her peers.


West Virginia and Gonzaga haven't looked particularly strong this year. I'd say that Stanford's wins over Dayton and George Washington and heck--a revitalized Purdue look much stronger. Stanford also gets the benefit of being a n established big-name program with Tara at the helm. It's been a promising start for the Women of Troy--but remember they've beaten a Gonzaga program that lost to North Carolina, and West Virginia lost to that Gonzaga team. Sorry, that's just not going to cut it. USC will likely get a ranking due to a guady record in a few weeks--but their first real test will be against the Bruins in conference play in late December.



Explain to me why Mississippi State, also at 5-0 is ranked 9th.
Mississippi State has beaten the following powerhouse name programs
Samford, Grambling, Miss. Valley State, Norfolk State, and Savannah State.
They have a combined 7-19 record and are all from weak conferences. Their coach has been at their program as long as Cooper has been at USC.

I am not asking why Southern California isnt ranked, I am asking why they have not one vote.

These polls are BS, and as Clay often says, I doubt the actual coaches vote for the teams, but rather the SID's do.


Mississippi State finished last season 27-7 and people believe they are better this season for some reason, while USC went 15-15. State is a proven quantity from last season with much of the cast returning. USC still has a lot to prove--and while I agree that early signs are promising, there is still work to be done for the Women of Troy as they move forward. Whether we like it or not--the results of last season do have some bearing on where a team begins a season ranked--the good news for the Women of Troy is that if they want to be ranked, they will have the chance to prove themselves come Pac-12 play.


Based on how you finished last season why have Idaho, who were 14-15 last season get 2 votes and Wake Forest who were 13-20 last season, and have three straight losing seasons, get 5 votes? Neither of these programs are known as powerful programs, at least in recent years. Both are 5-1 this year, not undefeated. Also, can add in Oregon at 13-17 last season, with 14 votes this year.

I say coaches do not like CCD at USC.


1. Idaho: Idaho has been impressive early--absolutely destroying Iowa State and giving Duke fits--I'm impressed by what the Vandals have accomplished so far this season.

2. Oregon: Oregon beat a RANKED North Carolina squad (who shouldn't have been ranked--but they were--and garners some respect from that).

3. Wake Forest started off well with a solid win over a strong name team in LSU--and yes, they have since lost to Missouri--but honestly, I can't explain Wake's rankings.

The polls are subjective to a combination of name recognition, last seasons results, East Coast Bias (although, that doesn't explain Idaho and Oregon), and looking at who the teams have beaten and played close games with. Once again, I think we come back to the fact that USC doesn't have that marquee victory or close game with a top program that has captured the attention of the voters--which on the heels of a mediocre season doesn't inspire confidence--but there is reason for optimism for the Women of Troy.


IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 8:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:


1. Idaho: Idaho has been impressive early--absolutely destroying Iowa State and giving Duke fits--I'm impressed by what the Vandals have accomplished so far this season.

2. Oregon: Oregon beat a RANKED North Carolina squad (who shouldn't have been ranked--but they were--and garners some respect from that).

3. Wake Forest started off well with a solid win over a strong name team in LSU--and yes, they have since lost to Missouri--but honestly, I can't explain Wake's rankings.

The polls are subjective to a combination of name recognition, last seasons results, East Coast Bias (although, that doesn't explain Idaho and Oregon), and looking at who the teams have beaten and played close games with. Once again, I think we come back to the fact that USC doesn't have that marquee victory or close game with a top program that has captured the attention of the voters--which on the heels of a mediocre season doesn't inspire confidence--but there is reason for optimism for the Women of Troy.


Let me understand this, Miss State doesnt have a marquee win or close game to a top program but has enough name recognition from last years record to be ranked 9th.

USC has a "questionable marquee" win over Gonzaga, @ Gonzaga, after all you said the following in this same topic on Nov 17th, in regards to why Stanford would move up in the 2nd poll of the season.

Quote:
FollowtheCardinalRule
I'd imagine it's because Gonzaga has the name recognition, and it's tough to beat the Zags in Spokane. I don't think Stanford played particularly well, but anytime someone escapes Spokane with a win, especially with Gonzagas tourney runs, it's significant.


The above does not give USC, one vote. Not a top 25 position, just one vote from one coach.

Strange how it can be used as a positive argument for Stanford but not even a notice for another team.


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 8:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
FollowtheCardinalRule wrote:


1. Idaho: Idaho has been impressive early--absolutely destroying Iowa State and giving Duke fits--I'm impressed by what the Vandals have accomplished so far this season.

2. Oregon: Oregon beat a RANKED North Carolina squad (who shouldn't have been ranked--but they were--and garners some respect from that).

3. Wake Forest started off well with a solid win over a strong name team in LSU--and yes, they have since lost to Missouri--but honestly, I can't explain Wake's rankings.

The polls are subjective to a combination of name recognition, last seasons results, East Coast Bias (although, that doesn't explain Idaho and Oregon), and looking at who the teams have beaten and played close games with. Once again, I think we come back to the fact that USC doesn't have that marquee victory or close game with a top program that has captured the attention of the voters--which on the heels of a mediocre season doesn't inspire confidence--but there is reason for optimism for the Women of Troy.


Let me understand this, Miss State doesnt have a marquee win or close game to a top program but has enough name recognition from last years record to be ranked 9th.

USC has a "questionable marquee" win over Gonzaga, @ Gonzaga, after all you said the following in this same topic on Nov 17th, in regards to why Stanford would move up in the 2nd poll of the season.

Quote:
FollowtheCardinalRule
I'd imagine it's because Gonzaga has the name recognition, and it's tough to beat the Zags in Spokane. I don't think Stanford played particularly well, but anytime someone escapes Spokane with a win, especially with Gonzagas tourney runs, it's significant.


The above does not give USC, one vote. Not a top 25 position, just one vote from one coach.

Strange how it can be used as a positive argument for Stanford but not even a notice for another team.


Yes, I used it for a positive argument for Stanford--but now it appears that this is not the same formidable Gonzaga we are used to seeing. While I applaud using my own past statements against me--I would venture that the situation has been altered by what Gonzaga has done since I posted that. I think the fact that Gonzaga lost to a North Carolina squad that lost to Gardener Webb speaks volumes about where the Zags are this season. Since that victory, Stanford has picked up other wins which are in my opinion stronger than what USC has managed to date--and the Zags aren't quite up to their usual snuff so far this season.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 12/01/15 10:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Miss St and USC are not remotely comparable for rankings purposes right now.

At this stage of the season, for most schools who have done nothing notable (neither a good upset win, nor a bad upset loss), it's largely, with only minor adjustment, based on where you left off last season. Miss St ended up 27-7, ranked 12th, with an RPI of 28. USC ended 15-15, unranked, with an RPI of 95. Plus, Miss St has a well known All American candidate in Victoria Vivians and USC has no one comparable. I might have Miss St slightly lower than they are, but no one should be surprised that Miss St is ranked and USC isn't. Indeed there'd be something wrong if it wasn't that way. And it's not about conference bias or any other conspiracy.


IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/02/15 12:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Miss St and USC are not remotely comparable for rankings purposes right now.

At this stage of the season, for most schools who have done nothing notable (neither a good upset win, nor a bad upset loss), it's largely, with only minor adjustment, based on where you left off last season. Miss St ended up 27-7, ranked 12th, with an RPI of 28. USC ended 15-15, unranked, with an RPI of 95. Plus, Miss St has a well known All American candidate in Victoria Vivians and USC has no one comparable. I might have Miss St slightly lower than they are, but no one should be surprised that Miss St is ranked and USC isn't. Indeed there'd be something wrong if it wasn't that way. And it's not about conference bias or any other conspiracy.


Art,
I am not talking about ranking. I am talking about no votes for USC.

Besides, anyone who looks at MSU's record of 27-7 from last year knows it was a fraud. In the SEC, they were 11-6. They were 10-1 vs the dregs of the SEC and 1-5 vs the top teams(only win vs TxAM in OT). They only had to play Tenn. and So Carolina once last year, both losses. They had a horrid RPI for their OOC schedule last year, as will this years RPI for the OOC games. By the way they are currently at 188 RPI and USC is 23. They won a weak pre season WNIT last year against a respectable Western Kentucky team and that and the TxAM game was it.

They lost last year in their only SEC Tournament game, to Kentucky. They did beat Tulane in round one of NCAA, then lost to Duke.

So based on fraud record last year and beating 5 creampuffs this year, they are ranked 9th and USC(West Coast) also 5-0, winning at Gonzaga, and beating Santa Clara, by 35 points, who beat Stanford doesnt get one vote.

I still say the other coaches wont vote for USC Coach Cooper, for some reason.


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PostPosted: 12/02/15 12:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay, I'll bite again.

Let's try a hypothetical scenario try and divest ourselves of strong feelings for our teams.

1. Sioux State managed to finish last season 15-16 and in the bottom half of their conference. They have a lot of optimism for this season--as they have a strong transfer and good returning players to rely on. Sioux State scores an impressive season opening win by 50 over East Durham, a lesser program in a mid-major conference.

2. East Durham proceeds to pull off a stunning upset, when they knock of Petit Jean College--a traditional power in Sioux State's conference--and a perennial tournament threat. Pundits give Petit Jean College the benefit of a doubt that they had a horrendous day for whatever reason--but East Durham provides a major upset in what so far has been a relatively calm season.

3. Sioux State proceeds to beat traditional mid-major power Kenyon College on their home court--a court that has traditionally been a tough place to escape with a victory--but Kenyon College--despite hopes that they wouldn't have to rebuild this season goes and loses to some weaker teams than they have in the past.

So, Sioux State's best victories are over an East Durham squad that played lights out against Petit Jean, and a weaker Kenyon College squad. Does Sioux State deserve to be ranked based on those two victories? When you're talking about votes--you are talking about someone having to decide to rank Sioux State within their top 25. That's how you get votes.


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PostPosted: 12/02/15 9:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:

I am not talking about ranking. I am talking about no votes for USC.

Besides, anyone who looks at MSU's record of 27-7 from last year knows it was a fraud.


Well obviously not everyone who looked at that record considered it a fraud. They ended up ranked #12 based on that record. Basically all the voters gave that record credence.

And worrying about anyone getting one vote is pointless. All that means is that one voter gave their local team or favorite team a 25th place charity vote, not that anyone actually believes they're the 25th team. Happens all the time that total outliers get a point or two. Who cares. It has no significance.

Obviously not even the LA voters care enough about USC to bother tossing them a bone.

And RPI is pointless at this time of year. There isn't enough data to plug into the formula to produce anything meaningful. Maryland is 88. Do you seriously believe USC is better han Maryland, not to mention Oklahoma and Notre Dame and FSU and Michigan and Oregon St, because that's what the RPI would tell you today. I don't think they are. RPI is worth looking at when at least half the season has been played.


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PostPosted: 12/02/15 10:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The assumption that the voters look at results leads to a lot of frustration.

SIDs are very busy, and this is just one more thing on their plate ...



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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/08/15 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/5/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Kentucky up to #8

Florida State up to #9

Tennessee down to #15

Miami (FL) in, Seton Hall out



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IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/08/15 2:48 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/5/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Kentucky up to #8

Florida State up to #9

Tennessee down to #15

Miami (FL) in, Seton Hall out


Southern Cal, now at 8-0, still not one single vote by the other coaches.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 12/08/15 3:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

IM in OC wrote:
pilight wrote:
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/5/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Kentucky up to #8

Florida State up to #9

Tennessee down to #15

Miami (FL) in, Seton Hall out


Southern Cal, now at 8-0, still not one single vote by the other coaches.


In the past week they added wins over 1-7 Southern Utah, and 4-2 UNLV. If beating Gonzaga and WVU didn't earn them any votes last week, I don't know why this week's wins would change that.

If they're still undefeated on Jan 2 after playing UCLA and Ore St, then they'll probably get votes. If they're not, then they probably won't. They'll have chances to show they deserve to be ranked long before it starts to matter.


IM in OC



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PostPosted: 12/08/15 4:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
IM in OC wrote:
pilight wrote:
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/5/seasontype/2

UConn still unanimous

Kentucky up to #8

Florida State up to #9

Tennessee down to #15

Miami (FL) in, Seton Hall out


Southern Cal, now at 8-0, still not one single vote by the other coaches.


In the past week they added wins over 1-7 Southern Utah, and 4-2 UNLV. If beating Gonzaga and WVU didn't earn them any votes last week, I don't know why this week's wins would change that.

If they're still undefeated on Jan 2 after playing UCLA and Ore St, then they'll probably get votes. If they're not, then they probably won't. They'll have chances to show they deserve to be ranked long before it starts to matter.


So if they go 12-0 into the UCLA game on Dec 30th they still shouldnt get a single vote.

Just curious, Art, what criteria do you think the other coaches use,(if it is the actual coaches who vote) to determine who they should vote for?


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