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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 12/08/15 5:24 pm ::: |
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| IM in OC wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| IM in OC wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/2/week/5/seasontype/2
UConn still unanimous
Kentucky up to #8
Florida State up to #9
Tennessee down to #15
Miami (FL) in, Seton Hall out |
Southern Cal, now at 8-0, still not one single vote by the other coaches. |
In the past week they added wins over 1-7 Southern Utah, and 4-2 UNLV. If beating Gonzaga and WVU didn't earn them any votes last week, I don't know why this week's wins would change that.
If they're still undefeated on Jan 2 after playing UCLA and Ore St, then they'll probably get votes. If they're not, then they probably won't. They'll have chances to show they deserve to be ranked long before it starts to matter. |
So if they go 12-0 into the UCLA game on Dec 30th they still shouldnt get a single vote.
Just curious, Art, what criteria do you think the other coaches use,(if it is the actual coaches who vote) to determine who they should vote for? |
I suspect different coaches (or their staff) have different criteria. There is no rule that I'm aware of.
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pilight
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| Posted: 12/08/15 5:31 pm ::: |
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| USC is the only undefeated Power 5 team not getting any votes. I would say that qualifies as odd.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 5:53 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| USC is the only undefeated Power 5 team not getting any votes. I would say that qualifies as odd. |
I don't understand where you're going with this. Do you think It's some sort of conspiracy? That there's some secret email campaign encouraging people not to vote for USC? What are you suggesting is the cause of this supposed "oddity"?
A wholebunch of independant voters are independantly coming to the same conclusion that USC isn't one of the best 25 teams. Considering where they were thought to be pre season and their body of work so far, I'm not sure what's so "odd" about that.
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Matt5762
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 12/08/15 6:14 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
A wholebunch of independant voters are independantly coming to the same conclusion that USC isn't one of the best 25 teams. Considering where they were thought to be pre season and their body of work so far, I'm not sure what's so "odd" about that. |
It is somewhat odd when compared to teams with similar results such as Miami (now #22 after starting the season with 11 votes) and Missouri (now with 22 votes after starting the season with none). Sagarin and Massey both currently rate USC as the best of those 3 teams.
That all votes would come to that conclusion I'd say is practically impossible, but that assumes they are actually considering the question. Almost certainly the vast majority are instead just spending 5 minutes copying last week's poll, moving losers down ~3 spots, grabbing a team from the RV list if needed and resubmitting.
USC's best chance to move into the RV list soon would probably be with an "impressive" win over Florida A&M, their 1st opponent of the year who votes in the poll.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 7:17 pm ::: |
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| Matt5762 wrote: |
That all votes would come to that conclusion I'd say is practically impossible |
Except that it has.
I don't know or care frankly whether USC has or should have any votes. I just don't understand what some of you are saying here. It sounds like you're suggesting there's something underhanded going on. How exactly is that supposed work? What's the motivation for every voter to decide to "unfairly" keep USC out of the rankings. After you say you think they should have some votes where do you go next?
No voter has seen fit to vote for USC. So. . . . .?
I think the most likely reason is simply that back in October nobody expected USC to be a top 25 team and they haven't yet impressed anyone - not even one voter - enough to think otherwise.
BTW, at this point of the season sagarin is as useless as the RPI because there simply isn't enough data
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Matt5762
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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| Posted: 12/08/15 9:18 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Matt5762 wrote: |
That all votes would come to that conclusion I'd say is practically impossible |
Except that it has.
I don't know or care frankly whether USC has or should have any votes. I just don't understand what some of you are saying here. It sounds like you're suggesting there's something underhanded going on.
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Actually it sounds like you're suggesting it solely for the purposes of being argumentative because that is not what the content of my post suggested whatsoever.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| BTW, at this point of the season sagarin is as useless as the RPI because there simply isn't enough data |
This is not remotely true. There is plenty of data that shows that legitimate computer rankings (not RPI) are surprisingly accurate with 3+ weeks of data.
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pilight
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| Posted: 12/08/15 9:22 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| USC is the only undefeated Power 5 team not getting any votes. I would say that qualifies as odd. |
I don't understand where you're going with this. Do you think It's some sort of conspiracy? That there's some secret email campaign encouraging people not to vote for USC? What are you suggesting is the cause of this supposed "oddity"? |
I have no idea what the cause of it is. I doubt it is an organized anti-Trojan campaign. It's just odd.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 9:40 pm ::: |
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| Matt5762 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Matt5762 wrote: |
That all votes would come to that conclusion I'd say is practically impossible |
Except that it has.
I don't know or care frankly whether USC has or should have any votes. I just don't understand what some of you are saying here. It sounds like you're suggesting there's something underhanded going on.
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Actually it sounds like you're suggesting it solely for the purposes of being argumentative because that is not what the content of my post suggested whatsoever.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| BTW, at this point of the season sagarin is as useless as the RPI because there simply isn't enough data |
This is not remotely true. There is plenty of data that shows that legitimate computer rankings (not RPI) are surprisingly accurate with 3+ weeks of data. |
Would you like to provide some of that "plenty of data"?
Fact is, by his own explanation, his model is flawed until the set of games becomes sufficiently connected (which is a lot longer than three weeks). Until that point he uses a Bayesian network based on pre-season rankings, so it's based on projections, not results.
And with respect to USC getting no votes, what point are you trying to make? You claim it's "practically impossible" for that to happen, but there is only one fact here and that is that 64 voters, in two polls, made up of both coaches and writers, from all over the country, have in fact come to the identical conclusion that USC doesn't even deserve one 25th place vote. So not only is it "possible", it's reality. So what is your explanation and point in calling it "practically impossible?" Where are you going with that? I've asked; no one complaining about it has yet to answer.
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IM in OC
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: 12/08/15 9:54 pm ::: |
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Here are the voters, all D1 coaches from the 32 Conferences in WBB.
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches a Division I institutions. All are members of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association. The board for the 2015-16 season: Katie Abrahamson-Henderson, Albany; Zenarae Antoine, Texas State; Lynn Bria, Stetson; Joan Bonvicini, Seattle; Dawn Brown, Prairie View A&M; Jamie Craighead, San Jose State; Kristy Curry, Alabama; Denise Dillon, Drexel; Brooks Donald-Williams, McNeese State; Oties Epps, Evansville; Brittney Ezell, East Tennessee State; Jason Flowers, Cal-State Northridge; Susan Robinson Fruchtl, Providence; Stephanie Gaitley, Fordham; LeDawn Gibson, Florida A&M; Joe Haigh, Saint Francis (Pa.); Quentin Hillsman, Syracuse; Ali Jaques, Siena; Jeff Judkins, Brigham Young; Brenda Mock Kirkpatrick, North Carolina-Asheville; Kelly Lewis-Jay, Florida Atlantic; Jim Littell, Oklahoma State; Dave Magarity, Army; David Midlick, Austin Peay; Regina Miller, Illinois-Chicago; Mike Neighbors, Washington; Rhonda Rompola, Southern Methodist; Brady Sallee, Ball State; Wendy Schuller, Eastern Washington; Dayna Smith, Cornell; Coquese Washington, Penn State; Amy Williams, South Dakota.
By the way Art, the season is 1/4 to almost 1/3 over based on a 32 game season. Obviously the elite play more, but most dont. When is there enough games in your mind that statistics, RPI or SOS do matter, or are coaches still using the preseason propaganda, err, Media Guides to determine who should be good or not.
It is an incredible oddity that an undefeated team, playing in a Power 5 conference, this far into a season hasnt got the notice of one voter. I wonder who voted for Army thinking they are a top 25 team? Although Army's coach is on the list, I am not sure if he can vote for his own team.
There are also 6 western based coaches that didnt vote for USC. It seems odd, that one coach didnt toss a #24 or #25 vote to USC.
By the way, IMO they are not a top 25 team,(neither are the other 19 teams not in the top 25 who did get votes) but that doesnt mean they shouldnt get some recognition. They also arent my favorite team, though I root for all Pac12 teams and some others out west. They win a few more games they will be at the same games won streak as one of the Great teams of the early 80's.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 10:13 pm ::: |
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I guess I'm not going to get an explanation.
BTW, most teams have only played 6-8 games, so the season isn't close to a third over, and it's not the number of games that matters, it's having sufficient connections between games and schedules.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 12/08/15 10:26 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I guess I'm not going to get an explanation.
BTW, most teams have only played 6-8 games, so the season isn't close to a third over, and it's not the number of games that matters, it's having sufficient connections between games and schedules. |
The explanation is that most voters in the WCBB polls pay as much attention to the candidates' resumes, qualifications, and vital statistics as most voters in national elections. Sprinkle in some east coast sampling bias to shake out the people who might have paid attention, and voila!
I don't believe it's a vast conspiracy. I believe it's apathy, inertia, and ignorance.
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Matt5762
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| Posted: 12/08/15 11:18 pm ::: |
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Queenie has pretty much summed up my point. Thank you Queenie!! (If only I were so eloquent...)
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Fact is, by his own explanation, his model is flawed until the set of games becomes sufficiently connected (which is a lot longer than three weeks). Until that point he uses a Bayesian network based on pre-season rankings, so it's based on projections, not results.
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By a lot longer, I assume you meant about a week because while he doesn't publish this anymore, historically the ratings have become completely unbiased by mid-December. So, at this point, we can estimate they're 80/20 based on this season's results. Not bad (especially in comparison to the coaches poll).
Not really sure what your point was though because USC's preseason rating was based on last season's performance, so if they are already up to 16, logically they will move even higher still once the ratings become based solely on this season's results.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
but there is only one fact here and that is that 64 voters, in two polls, made up of both coaches and writers, from all over the country, have in fact come to the identical conclusion that USC doesn't even deserve one 25th place vote. So not only is it "possible", it's reality. |
Eh, the writers in fact gave USC 26 votes, I guess you missed that.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 11:41 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I guess I'm not going to get an explanation.
BTW, most teams have only played 6-8 games, so the season isn't close to a third over, and it's not the number of games that matters, it's having sufficient connections between games and schedules. |
The explanation is that most voters in the WCBB polls pay as much attention to the candidates' resumes, qualifications, and vital statistics as most voters in national elections. Sprinkle in some east coast sampling bias to shake out the people who might have paid attention, and voila!
I don't believe it's a vast conspiracy. I believe it's apathy, inertia, and ignorance. |
That might work if the issue was, say, being ranked 22 instead of 15th, or whatever. But in this case, where the complaint is getting zero votes, the problem with that theory is twofold.
First, you need to use the word "most" in describing the voters. So even if you're correct that "most" are lazy, the minority who do pay attention still aren't casting a single vote for USC.
Second, there is a block of West Coast voters, and not a single one of them is voting for USC either. You can't attribute that to East Coast bias.
The best answer is usually the simplest one, which is probably simply that none of the 32 voters believes USC deserves a 25th place vote, regardless of what some USC or PAC fans might think.
Anyhow, I didn't intend to have some big discussion, I just seriously wondered what people were intending to suggest by some rather extreme adjectives that were being used to describe the situation. I can easily understand disagreeing with the polls - that's pretty standard for everyone - but something nefarious seemed to be implicit in the characterizations in this instance.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/08/15 11:44 pm ::: |
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| Never mind.
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22
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| Posted: 12/09/15 3:54 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Never mind. |
If you go back and read the thread, I think iminoc (who raised the issue) stated his point a couple times -- that enough coaches don't like Cooper to affect the voting a bit.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/09/15 6:44 am ::: |
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| 22 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Never mind. |
If you go back and read the thread, I think iminoc (who raised the issue) stated his point a couple times -- that enough coaches don't like Cooper to affect the voting a bit. |
Sorry, I didn't understand that comment (just once a week ago I think) to be the theory.
So someone thinks it is a conspiracy. Ok now I understand. Thank you.
Although it's evidently more than a "bit" of an effect, it's 100%, if you buy that theory.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 12/09/15 8:31 am ::: |
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| IM in OC wrote: |
Here are the voters, all D1 coaches from the 32 Conferences in WBB.
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches a Division I institutions. All are members of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association. The board for the 2015-16 season: Katie Abrahamson-Henderson, Albany; Zenarae Antoine, Texas State; Lynn Bria, Stetson; Joan Bonvicini, Seattle; Dawn Brown, Prairie View A&M; Jamie Craighead, San Jose State; Kristy Curry, Alabama; Denise Dillon, Drexel; Brooks Donald-Williams, McNeese State; Oties Epps, Evansville; Brittney Ezell, East Tennessee State; Jason Flowers, Cal-State Northridge; Susan Robinson Fruchtl, Providence; Stephanie Gaitley, Fordham; LeDawn Gibson, Florida A&M; Joe Haigh, Saint Francis (Pa.); Quentin Hillsman, Syracuse; Ali Jaques, Siena; Jeff Judkins, Brigham Young; Brenda Mock Kirkpatrick, North Carolina-Asheville; Kelly Lewis-Jay, Florida Atlantic; Jim Littell, Oklahoma State; Dave Magarity, Army; David Midlick, Austin Peay; Regina Miller, Illinois-Chicago; Mike Neighbors, Washington; Rhonda Rompola, Southern Methodist; Brady Sallee, Ball State; Wendy Schuller, Eastern Washington; Dayna Smith, Cornell; Coquese Washington, Penn State; Amy Williams, South Dakota.
It is an incredible oddity that an undefeated team, playing in a Power 5 conference, this far into a season hasnt got the notice of one voter. |
I highlighted the individual you should contact and give a piece of your mind. He is most definitely aware of what is going on with Pac-12 schools. I know when I helped my head coach with this stuff, we were always looking at schools in our own conference to maybe be able to throw them a bone at the bottom of the poll, especially when I was at a mid-major program.
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IM in OC
Joined: 25 Mar 2009
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| Posted: 12/09/15 11:05 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| IM in OC wrote: |
Here are the voters, all D1 coaches from the 32 Conferences in WBB.
The USA TODAY Sports Board of Coaches is made up of 32 head coaches a Division I institutions. All are members of the Women's Basketball Coaches Association. The board for the 2015-16 season: Katie Abrahamson-Henderson, Albany; Zenarae Antoine, Texas State; Lynn Bria, Stetson; Joan Bonvicini, Seattle; Dawn Brown, Prairie View A&M; Jamie Craighead, San Jose State; Kristy Curry, Alabama; Denise Dillon, Drexel; Brooks Donald-Williams, McNeese State; Oties Epps, Evansville; Brittney Ezell, East Tennessee State; Jason Flowers, Cal-State Northridge; Susan Robinson Fruchtl, Providence; Stephanie Gaitley, Fordham; LeDawn Gibson, Florida A&am M; Joe Haigh, Saint Francis (Pa.); Quentin Hillsman, Syracuse; Ali Jaques, Siena; Jeff Judkins, Brigham Young; Brenda Mock Kirkpatrick, North Carolina-Asheville; Kelly Lewis-Jay, Florida Atlantic; Jim Littell, Oklahoma State; Dave Magarity, Army; David Midlick, Austin Peay; Regina Miller, Illinois-Chicago; Mike Neighbors, Washington; Rhonda Rompola, Southern Methodist; Brady Sallee, Ball State; Wendy Schuller, Eastern Washington; Dayna Smith, Cornell; Coquese Washington, Penn State; Amy Williams, South Dakota.
It is an incredible oddity that an undefeated team, playing in a Power 5 conference, this far into a season hasnt got the notice of one voter. |
I highlighted the individual you should contact and give a piece of your mind. He is most definitely aware of what is going on with Pac-12 schools. I know when I helped my head coach with this stuff, we were always looking at schools in our own conference to maybe be able to throw them a bone at the bottom of the poll, especially when I was at a mid-major program. |
Not only that, the teams I hilighted in red are both coming in to play in a USC tournament next weekend. One might think they might have wanted to at least give a vote to USC.
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Shades
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| Posted: 12/09/15 11:24 am ::: |
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Here's the bottom of points getters
Virginia Tech 6, George Washington 6, Auburn 4, Washington 4, Boston College 3, Idaho 2, Army 1, BYU 1
A lot of people like Idaho this season. They're kinda like America's team.
Army lost by 9 at Duke. That probably stuck with one person as reason enough for them to be ranked #25
BYU is fresh off an upset win of then #11 TAMU in Hawaii. One point is your reward.... woo hoo!
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22
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| Posted: 12/10/15 2:15 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| 22 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Never mind. |
If you go back and read the thread, I think iminoc (who raised the issue) stated his point a couple times -- that enough coaches don't like Cooper to affect the voting a bit. |
Sorry, I didn't understand that comment (just once a week ago I think) to be the theory.
So someone thinks it is a conspiracy. Ok now I understand. Thank you.
Although it's evidently more than a "bit" of an effect, it's 100%, if you buy that theory. |
Well, the discussion got sidetracked on different issues (as tends to happen), but iminoc started his 'theory' by emphasizing his problem was with the fact that usc did not receive at least ONE vote in the poll.
So it seems to me you don't need a broad conspiracy - just one or a few of the coaches who should be familiar w usc, and who might otherwise been inclined to throw them a vote, to not like CCD enough.
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pilight
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 12/15/15 2:45 pm ::: |
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| Does Holly get a vote? How else would you please explain who is voting 7-2 Tennessee as #4, ahead of Baylor, Maryland, OreSt, Ky and even the Texas team that beat them at Tennessee.
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linkster
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| Posted: 12/15/15 2:54 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Does Holly get a vote? How else would you please explain who is voting 7-2 Tennessee as #4, ahead of Baylor, Maryland, OreSt, Ky and even the Texas team that beat them at Tennessee. |
I thought the same thing until I looked at other high/low rankings and realized they were H/L for the season, not the week.
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 12/15/15 5:04 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Does Holly get a vote? How else would you please explain who is voting 7-2 Tennessee as #4, ahead of Baylor, Maryland, OreSt, Ky and even the Texas team that beat them at Tennessee. |
I thought the same thing until I looked at other high/low rankings and realized they were H/L for the season, not the week. |
Just to be picky, H/L for season, prior to current week.
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pilight
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