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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 08/17/15 12:40 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
He's disappointed in the timing!!!????!!!?!!!
How about being upset about the violations? |
I took it to mean he was disappointed this was still going on after the point in time when likely believed such things had stopped. I don't blame him. Who would be dumb enough to do this after the whole world has started watching your every move? |
Someone who wanted to extend the NOA process by months to guarantee that his basketball team, the best (on paper) that it has been since 2009, is not deprived of a postseason berth this year.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/17/15 1:03 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
He's disappointed in the timing!!!????!!!?!!!
How about being upset about the violations? |
I took it to mean he was disappointed this was still going on after the point in time when likely believed such things had stopped. I don't blame him. Who would be dumb enough to do this after the whole world has started watching your every move? |
Someone who wanted to extend the NOA process by months to guarantee that his basketball team, the best (on paper) that it has been since 2009, is not deprived of a postseason berth this year. |
Interesting.
| Durantula wrote: |
| the school has uncovered additional violations in women's basketball and men's soccer |
So are you now extending your grassy knoll theory to include that that the women's basketball program and men's soccer team purposely continued to cheat in order to protect the men's basketball team's 2016 post season prospects?
What I find most hilarious in this whole thing is how invested some Duke fans are in praying that Williams gets caught having done something wrong. There's the Wainstein Report reality, there's the NCAA reality, and then there's the Dukie reality, which has little to do with the other two.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/17/15 2:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| What I find most hilarious in this whole thing is how invested some Duke fans are in praying that Williams gets caught having done something wrong. There's the Wainstein Report reality, there's the NCAA reality, and then there's the Dukie reality, which has little to do with the other two. |
And this is where your analysis and understanding is severely flawed, as I set forth above (and to which you never responded).
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/17/15 2:37 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| What I find most hilarious in this whole thing is how invested some Duke fans are in praying that Williams gets caught having done something wrong. There's the Wainstein Report reality, there's the NCAA reality, and then there's the Dukie reality, which has little to do with the other two. |
And this is where your analysis and understanding is severely flawed, as I set forth above (and to which you never responded). |
You mean all the stuff about how just wait, eventually a whole bunch of redacted materials or unreleased emails and other materials will be made public and then we'll all see?
You're correct. I didn't didn't waste my time responding.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 08/17/15 4:34 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25269910/unc-reports-new-violations-to-ncaa-that-should-delay-infractions-case
North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham announced Friday afternoon that the school has uncovered additional violations in women's basketball and men's soccer that will delay a resolution to UNC's case with the NCAA.
"I'm very disappointed in the timing," Cunningham said.
Which might be true.
But the timing basically ensures UNC won't be punished before National Signing Day for football or the 2016 NCAA Tournament, meaning Roy Williams' Tar Heels, a possible preseason No. 1, now run almost no risk of being banned from this upcoming season's postseason. In other words, in a twisted way, these newly discovered potential violations could prove helpful to the sports that matter most in Chapel Hill. |
He's disappointed in the timing!!!????!!!?!!!
How about being upset about the violations? |
I took it to mean he was disappointed this was still going on after the point in time when likely believed such things had stopped. I don't blame him. Who would be dumb enough to do this after the whole world has started watching your every move? |
That's not an implausible reading, and it wouldn't be the first time a reporter took something differently than it was meant, but it doesn't really read that way to me.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/17/15 4:35 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| What I find most hilarious in this whole thing is how invested some Duke fans are in praying that Williams gets caught having done something wrong. There's the Wainstein Report reality, there's the NCAA reality, and then there's the Dukie reality, which has little to do with the other two. |
And this is where your analysis and understanding is severely flawed, as I set forth above (and to which you never responded). |
You mean all the stuff about how just wait, eventually a whole bunch of redacted materials or unreleased emails and other materials will be made public and then we'll all see?
You're correct. I didn't didn't waste my time responding. |
You also did not waste your time reviewing all of the exhibits and materials that were released as well.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/17/15 4:46 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| What I find most hilarious in this whole thing is how invested some Duke fans are in praying that Williams gets caught having done something wrong. There's the Wainstein Report reality, there's the NCAA reality, and then there's the Dukie reality, which has little to do with the other two. |
And this is where your analysis and understanding is severely flawed, as I set forth above (and to which you never responded). |
You mean all the stuff about how just wait, eventually a whole bunch of redacted materials or unreleased emails and other materials will be made public and then we'll all see?
You're correct. I didn't didn't waste my time responding. |
You also did not waste your time reviewing all of the exhibits and materials that were released as well. |
Again correct. I'm not so presumptuous as to think my conclusions would be more accurate than those of Wainstein and his army of lawyers who not only reviewed every scrap of public information, but also had access to people and interviews and a lot of other information that isn't public. I relied on his analysis and conclusions. I've yet to see any reason whatsoever why I should accept the "interpretation" of some Duke or NCState internet fansites over Wainstein's conclusions.
None of which of course explains the whopper that additional recent violations by WBB and men's soccer where committed to stall the NCAA and protect MBB's 2016 post season. Are there super-secret non-public emails supporting this one too?
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/17/15 6:10 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Again correct. I'm not so presumptuous as to think my conclusions would be more accurate than those of Wainstein and his army of lawyers who not only reviewed every scrap of public information, but also had access to people and interviews and a lot of other information that isn't public. I relied on his analysis and conclusions. I've yet to see any reason whatsoever why I should accept the "interpretation" of some Duke or NCState internet fansites over Wainstein's conclusions. |
Except for the fact that you have demonstrated you do not understand what Wainstein reported or what the exhibits even say, since you did not read them. But go ahead.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| None of which of course explains the whopper that additional recent violations by WBB and men's soccer where committed to stall the NCAA and protect MBB's 2016 post season. Are there super-secret non-public emails supporting this one too? |
Try to find a way around attorney-client privilege, and you may see the answer.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/17/15 6:25 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Again correct. I'm not so presumptuous as to think my conclusions would be more accurate than those of Wainstein and his army of lawyers who not only reviewed every scrap of public information, but also had access to people and interviews and a lot of other information that isn't public. I relied on his analysis and conclusions. I've yet to see any reason whatsoever why I should accept the "interpretation" of some Duke or NCState internet fansites over Wainstein's conclusions. |
Except for the fact that you have demonstrated you do not understand what Wainstein reported or what the exhibits even say, since you did not read them. But go ahead.
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| None of which of course explains the whopper that additional recent violations by WBB and men's soccer where committed to stall the NCAA and protect MBB's 2016 post season. Are there super-secret non-public emails supporting this one too? |
Try to find a way around attorney-client privilege, and you may see the answer. |
Are you saying YOU are an attorney with access to privileged information? And you're posting this kind of stuff about it on the internet? I hope your malpractice insurance is paid up.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/18/15 12:35 pm ::: |
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Amazing how you consistently put words in the mouths of other posters...things they never said and things they previously explained in other posts.
And when you get called out on them (e.g., Serena threads, this thread, Leticia Romero, etc.), you back away and blame the people for questioning your *exact* words.
Maybe you should be InartfulDodger instead of ArtBest.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Queens
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| Posted: 08/18/15 12:50 pm ::: |
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| As much popcorn as I'm going through watching you two, please try to remain focused on the topic and not on personal commentary.
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/19/15 3:55 pm ::: |
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Paul Finebaum says UNC "has been since Dean Smith."
Lance: Hey man, I missed you yesterday. Let me ask you about some coaches Paul. The interview you just did with Butch Davis, I just throw out the North Carolina Tar Heels tried to taint that man. I believe he should still be coaching. How do you feel about that?
PF: I agree with you. I thought he got a raw deal when you consider the garbage that came after him that he had nothing to do with. This is a program in North Carolina that really has been infected since Dean Smith. Of course, the people in Chapel Hill don't want to act like Dean Smith ever did anything wrong, but anyone who knows anything knows that's where the academic issues began, and Butch just got caught up in it, like many others...you know...Butch...people forget...he had it going in Miami, he resurrected that program.
https://twitter.com/joshwgoodson/status/633788559254622208
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/20/15 12:56 pm ::: |
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The Daily Tar Heel: UNC should stand by employees in a consistent manner
| Quote: |
It seems odd that, after the Wainstein report, women’s basketball should be singled out for special focus when the report clearly stated fraudulent classes at the heart of this scandal were created for and most frequently used by athletes in the revenue sports of football and men’s basketball.
This seems especially troubling when the NCAA’s notice of allegations seemed to extensively use the Wainstein report as its primary source of evidence. Did NCAA investigators neglect to read Wainstein’s executive summary? |
| Quote: |
| If Professor Tim McMillan and Bobbi Owen, both academics, were guilty for not asking enough questions, why wasn’t Roy Williams, the person in charge of ensuring institutional control for the men’s basketball team while almost a decade of fraudulent classes were taking place? |
| Quote: |
Were leaders interested in giving out the most constructive, ethical and proportionate levels of punishment possible, or were they interested in minimizing damage to the reputation of UNC’s major revenue sports of men’s basketball and football?
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| Quote: |
| Neglecting to follow up on eyebrow-raising information present in the Wainstein report and primarily punishing academics for a scandal that was constructed for the benefit of persons in the athletics department don’t seem to reflect courageous and moral leadership. |
Read more: http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/08/opinion-unc-should-stand-by-employees-in-a-consistent-manner
Quoted from The Daily Tar Heel
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CamrnCrz1974
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CamrnCrz1974
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summertime blues
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 08/29/15 9:50 pm ::: |
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| Why wasn't those years brought up in the NOA (which is what UNC will be ultminately oenalized on)? Why the NCAA didn't want to go after Dean Smith and Bill Guthridge when they had no problems going after Joe Paterno? I read the Wainstein Report and I can see why NCAA didn't take it just rubber stamp all of the allegations. Some of the sources came from rival websites.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/29/15 11:17 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
Art should have no excuse for not reading it now.  Good job. |
You haven't read one word of the report or exhibits, have you. As usual you're just trolling about things you know bupkis about. Good job.
There is zero reason for me to respond to the Dukie's incessant flood of selective excerpts designed to paint a highly misleading picture and to support some unfounded crusade.
Right after the quoted paragraph c on page 72, for example, is subparagraph c.ii. which spends two pages discussing the evidence involving Williams. Anyone interested in Williams probably ought to read it, because the six quoted lines certainly don't tell you anything. But why bother addressing that when it's so Fox Newsish to instead put in a fancy chart with multicolor big print. Wow. It's in Red and Blue. That must be reeeeeeeeealy important stuff.
And yep. That table is page 90 of the exhibits, all right. There's several more pages just like it. I, for example, found interesting eight to ten pages later that in the Spring semester, 2006, a whopping TEN womens basketball players were enrolled in a single fake class - "Topics in African American Studies" . TEN. In Spring 2002 there were ELEVEN mens basketball players in the same class. Ten or eleven - that's nearly the entire non-freshman roster. Actually, it might be the entire non-freshman roster. All taking the same fake class at the same time.
But of course in 2002 Matt Doherty was mens coach, they went 8-20, he's not an icon, he got fired, and obviously cheating didn't help him a bit, so he's of no interest to the Dukies.
In Spring 2006, on the other hand, while 10 womens BB players were all taking the same fake class, and the womens BB players were taking a total of TWENTY-ONE fake classes in a single semester (nearly two fake classes per player on average in the Spring of 2006 alone) Hatchell went 29-1 in the regular season, won the ACC, and went to the Final Four. Go big or go home, they say. (It's on page 100 of the exhibits by the way.)
Maybe the significance of all that would sink in if I put it in big red and blue letters.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 08/30/15 1:42 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should have no excuse for not reading it now. Good job. |
You haven't read one word of the report or exhibits, have you. As usual you're just trolling about things you know bupkis about. Good job.
There is zero reason for me to respond to the Dukie's incessant flood of selective excerpts designed to paint a highly misleading picture and to support some unfounded crusade.
Right after the quoted paragraph c on page 72, for example, is subparagraph c.ii. which spends two pages discussing the evidence involving Williams. Anyone interested in Williams probably ought to read it, because the six quoted lines certainly don't tell you anything. But why bother addressing that when it's so Fox Newsish to instead put in a fancy chart with multicolor big print. Wow. It's in Red and Blue. That must be reeeeeeeeealy important stuff.
And yep. That table is page 90 of the exhibits, all right. There's several more pages just like it. I, for example, found interesting eight to ten pages later that in the Spring semester, 2006, a whopping TEN womens basketball players were enrolled in a single fake class - "Topics in African American Studies" . TEN. In Spring 2002 there were ELEVEN mens basketball players in the same class. Ten or eleven - that's nearly the entire non-freshman roster. Actually, it might be the entire non-freshman roster. All taking the same fake class at the same time.
But of course in 2002 Matt Doherty was mens coach, they went 8-20, he's not an icon, he got fired, and obviously cheating didn't help him a bit, so he's of no interest to the Dukies.
In Spring 2006, on the other hand, while 10 womens BB players were all taking the same fake class, and the womens BB players were taking a total of TWENTY-ONE fake classes in a single semester (nearly two fake classes per player on average in the Spring of 2006 alone) Hatchell went 29-1 in the regular season, won the ACC, and went to the Final Four. Go big or go home, they say. (It's on page 100 of the exhibits by the way.)
Maybe the significance of all that would sink in if I put it in big red and blue letters. |
I think the reasoning behind putting up charts like that is to show that WBB is not the only program at UNC to utilize the fake classes--and that Sylvia Hatchell is--according to many, unfairly getting slammed with the consequences, while other sports at UNC also utilized said classes--EVEN IF IT WAS NOT RECENT--those classes perhaps allowed UNC to create conditions in order to construct a storied program which affects recruiting and so on.
I think that sure, Hatchell deserves some of the blame, but the issue that I've seen so far, is that UNC is letting the blows fall on sports outside of men's basketball--simply because that's the pride and joy of the university--and I'm not entirely convinced that it's just or fair that UNC Men's Ball escapes unscathed regardless of what the current coaching staff has done. The NCAA went after Joe Paterno after he retired and hammered Penn State, so why is UNC getting a different treatment in respect to the basketball program where massive violations were found? While we may not be privy to what the report has said, it is clear that the three major sports (Basketball, Football, and Women's Ball) all had violations at one point or another, and that all deserve to pay the consequences--and UNC should not be able to find a way to salvage one sport because it can deflect the blame to other sports.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 08/30/15 8:42 am ::: |
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| Quote: |
| But of course in 2002 Matt Doherty was mens coach, they went 8-20, he's not an icon, he got fired, and obviously cheating didn't help him a bit, so he's of no interest to the Dukies. |
I see you know why the Dookies and Wuffies are more focused on going after Dean and Roy than Bill and Matt. Make no mistake, MBB is the main target (Dean and Roy in particular) and the other sports are just collateral damage. Some Dookies don't want them to dig up too much dirt on the UNCWBB because some of the focus might turn to them if former Duke and UNC assistant coach Trisha Stafford-Odom was actively involved in any wrongdoing.[/quote]
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 08/30/15 10:07 am ::: |
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| goforit77 wrote: |
| NoDakSt wrote: |
| Howee wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| In fact, the report generally treats Williams better than Hatchell and - tellingly - says that MBB players stopped "taking" these classes well before the scandal broke, while the WBB players kept it up. |
Tres interesting. I didn't go anywhere NEAR the report, so I'm taking you'ns' word for it. Sylvia will always have her place in the history of 'our' game and UNC, but it may be a bit tarnished now. And, iconic or not, I can see UNC parting ways with her--like Andy at GA, it may be "time". |
Do you think that is why they're bringing in Crawley at this time? To transition to their next coach? |
Charlotte Smith is the Coach in Waiting fr UNC |
I"ll believe that when I see it. ISTM that some of Hatchell's tarnish may have spilled over onto Smith.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/30/15 10:17 am ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
I think the reasoning behind putting up charts like that is to show that WBB is not the only program at UNC to utilize the fake classes--and that Sylvia Hatchell is--according to many, unfairly getting slammed with the consequences, while other sports at UNC also utilized said classes--EVEN IF IT WAS NOT RECENT--those classes perhaps allowed UNC to create conditions in order to construct a storied program which affects recruiting and so on.
I think that sure, Hatchell deserves some of the blame, but the issue that I've seen so far, is that UNC is letting the blows fall on sports outside of men's basketball--simply because that's the pride and joy of the university--and I'm not entirely convinced that it's just or fair that UNC Men's Ball escapes unscathed regardless of what the current coaching staff has done. |
And where do you get this idea? Nothing has happened so far to any sport, has it? Have any sanctions landed on any sport? What "blows" have landed anywhere? How exactly has anyone been treated unevenly?
The sole and exclusive basis for all this "disparate treatment" rubbish is that Hatchell's contract was not renewed. Heck it might not have been renewed scandal or no scandal given her performance. But regardless of that, there's a huge difference in that Hatchell was the women's coach throughout the entire period of the scandal. Plus her lackey Boxill was at the very center of the scandal, fixing grades, putting students in fake classes, and leaving behind a detailed paper record of the entire thing. She is one of the three main villians in the entire scandal. There's no comparable record or individual with respect to the men's team. You can thank Boxill for why there is a huge target on WBB. They're guilty as hell, and there's no ambiguity or problem of proof about it. Meanwhile there have been four different coaches during this period for the men. Two are dead, one is long since fired. Hard to complain there's uneven treatment because their contracts weren't renewed this year. And maybe Williams was just smarter, but the investigators did not find the same kind of evidence about the current men's coach as they found about Hatchell. They looked, they discussed it at length in their report, it just didn't pan out, and it doesn't remotely compare to the years of emails documenting the fraud in WBB that Boxill left behind.
When the women's coach benefitted from having her team filling half their course schedules with fake classes during a Spring semester run to the ACC title and the Final Four, I am flabbergasted that anyone would even try to defend her. Lot of extra time to devote to basketball practice there. I understand that this is a women's basketball discussion forum and that some people like to jump on the "victim" bandwagon, but nothing that happens to Hatchell as a result of this scandal is undeserved. She's not a victim.
The Dukies are just frustrated that their arch enemy men's coaches either weren't culpable or were a lot smarter about it. But the picture that the crusader tries to paint here is grossly incomplete, selective, and highly misleading.
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LegoMyEggo
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/30/15 12:49 pm ::: |
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Art, I completely agree with you. Is there any mention whether Hatchell received academic performance bonuses for the grades given in these classes?
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
I think the reasoning behind putting up charts like that is to show that WBB is not the only program at UNC to utilize the fake classes--and that Sylvia Hatchell is--according to many, unfairly getting slammed with the consequences, while other sports at UNC also utilized said classes--EVEN IF IT WAS NOT RECENT--those classes perhaps allowed UNC to create conditions in order to construct a storied program which affects recruiting and so on.
I think that sure, Hatchell deserves some of the blame, but the issue that I've seen so far, is that UNC is letting the blows fall on sports outside of men's basketball--simply because that's the pride and joy of the university--and I'm not entirely convinced that it's just or fair that UNC Men's Ball escapes unscathed regardless of what the current coaching staff has done. |
And where do you get this idea? Nothing has happened so far to any sport, has it? Have any sanctions landed on any sport? What "blows" have landed anywhere? How exactly has anyone been treated unevenly?
The sole and exclusive basis for all this "disparate treatment" rubbish is that Hatchell's contract was not renewed. Heck it might not have been renewed scandal or no scandal given her performance. But regardless of that, there's a huge difference in that Hatchell was the women's coach throughout the entire period of the scandal. Plus her lackey Boxill was at the very center of the scandal, fixing grades, putting students in fake classes, and leaving behind a detailed paper record of the entire thing. She is one of the three main villians in the entire scandal. There's no comparable record or individual with respect to the men's team. You can thank Boxill for why there is a huge target on WBB. They're guilty as hell, and there's no ambiguity or problem of proof about it. Meanwhile there have been four different coaches during this period for the men. Two are dead, one is long since fired. Hard to complain there's uneven treatment because their contracts weren't renewed this year. And maybe Williams was just smarter, but the investigators did not find the same kind of evidence about the current men's coach as they found about Hatchell. They looked, they discussed it at length in their report, it just didn't pan out, and it doesn't remotely compare to the years of emails documenting the fraud in WBB that Boxill left behind.
When the women's coach benefitted from having her team filling half their course schedules with fake classes during a Spring semester run to the ACC title and the Final Four, I am flabbergasted that anyone would even try to defend her. Lot of extra time to devote to basketball practice there. I understand that this is a women's basketball discussion forum and that some people like to jump on the "victim" bandwagon, but nothing that happens to Hatchell as a result of this scandal is undeserved. She's not a victim.
The Dukies are just frustrated that their arch enemy men's coaches either weren't culpable or were a lot smarter about it. But the picture that the crusader tries to paint here is grossly incomplete, selective, and highly misleading. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/30/15 1:50 pm ::: |
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| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Art, I completely agree with you. Is there any mention whether Hatchell received academic performance bonuses for the grades given in these classes?. |
Don't know, but she probably got performance bonuses for that 2006 ACC title and FF appearance.
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LegoMyEggo
Joined: 02 Apr 2010
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| Posted: 08/30/15 1:52 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| LegoMyEggo wrote: |
| Art, I completely agree with you. Is there any mention whether Hatchell received academic performance bonuses for the grades given in these classes?. |
Don't know, but she probably got performance bonuses for that 2006 ACC title and FF appearance. |
Assuming she received all of the above, it would be hard to imagine a scenario where she would have to give the money back.
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