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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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 Posted: 07/29/15 4:55 pm ::: |
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| Howee wrote: |
Cam, just out of curiousity: are you working on this case in any official capacity? I'd think not, as you'd not be inclined to be revealing info (?). On the other hand, you're VERY invested in it, seemingly. And you're a Dukey, no?
I appreciate the (presumably accurate) info you provide here; I, like many, won't touch that with any 10-ft poles you can find. |
Not working the case in any official capacity. Just reviewed everything.
My first post in the thread summarized most everything and included my own analysis along with some of the inside information to which I have been privy.
And yes, I am a Duke grad.
Thank you for the note.
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015
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| Posted: 07/29/15 6:39 pm ::: |
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| Did Williams' action to stop his players from taking the paper classes come around the NCAA investigation surrounding the FB program's impermissible benefits and improper tutoring assistance in 2010? Or after it?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/29/15 8:10 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.
That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball. |
You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA. |
You're right. I quoted what Wainstein said. He had a big staff. He got paid a lot of money. He's a professional. He does this for a living. He had access to interviews and certainly more information than any outside observer. So please tell me why I should ignore his conclusions and take your word for it instead.
Are you telling me that Wainstein was wrong? That you have more information than he had? Did I miss a passage from Wainsteins report where he said MBB fixed grades? If so, could you please refer me to it because I guess I missed it.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 07/29/15 8:17 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/29/15 8:13 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.
That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball. |
If that is true -- and I have no desire to dig out the details -- Hatchell should be fired, since they already forced the football coach out. |
I quoted above this passage from the Wainstein report:
"We found evidence that both Crowder and Nyang’oro received requests that they award specific grades to certain student-athletes. Those requests came from two persons – Associate Director of ASPSA and Director of Football Cynthia Reynolds and women’s basketball academic counselor Jan Boxill (“Boxill”)."
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 07/29/15 8:38 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.
That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball. |
You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA. |
You're right. I quoted what Wainstein said. He had a big staff. He got paid a lot of money. He's a professional. He does this for a living. He had access to interviews and certainly more information than any outside observer. So please tell me why I should ignore his conclusions and take your word for it instead.
Are you telling me that Wainstein was wrong? That you have more information than he had? Did I miss a passage from Wainsteins report where he said MBB fixed grades? If so, could you please refer me to it because I guess I missed it. |
Where did I say that Wainstein was wrong? This is now the second thread in which you did this.
You did not read everything. I did.
Wainstein was not wrong. YOU are wrong, in what you said. The evidence and exhibits shows plenty. And I explained in my first post why WBB would be thrown under the bus, why the late 1980s and early-to-mid 1990s would not be used, etc., etc., etc. Please feel free to read it.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 07/29/15 8:43 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.
That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball. |
If that is true -- and I have no desire to dig out the details -- Hatchell should be fired, since they already forced the football coach out. |
I quoted above this passage from the Wainstein report:
"We found evidence that both Crowder and Nyang’oro received requests that they award specific grades to certain student-athletes. Those requests came from two persons – Associate Director of ASPSA and Director of Football Cynthia Reynolds and women’s basketball academic counselor Jan Boxill (“Boxill”)." |
Wainstein is clear about men's basketball and classes that never met...and that were being graded by Crowder, not a professor. There are emails with Crowder talking about specific grades for MBB players, among other exhibits.
You will have to wait until UNC deals with the public records/redaction issues, as the exhibits were heavily redacted, unnecessarily so. There will be names mentioned.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/29/15 8:56 pm ::: |
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| Conway Gamecock wrote: |
| Did Williams' action to stop his players from taking the paper classes come around the NCAA investigation surrounding the FB program's impermissible benefits and improper tutoring assistance in 2010? Or after it? |
Williams has given multiple accounts that conflict with one another. His story has changed. He told told Wainstein that his players ustopped taking the AFAM “paper classes” because the coach preferred they take lecture classes instead of independent studies. But prior to the Report, he had maintained that his players’ moving away from the AFAM courses was completely coincidental.
The Tar Heels men’s basketball team that won a national championship in 2005 was markedly reliant on fake classes. Its players accounted for 35 enrollments in classes that didn’t meet and yielded easy, high grades awarded by Crowder.
Roy Williams arrived at UNC after the 2002-2003 season. Of the 35 bogus class enrollments for the 2004-2005 year, nine came during the fall semester of 2004 and twenty-six were during the spring semester of 2005.
Roy brought his right-hand advisor in charge of academics form Kansas - Wayne Welden and gave him the same position at UNC.
The Tar Heels' 2005 and 2009 national championship banners were built on the academic scandal and fake classes.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 07/30/15 10:08 pm ::: |
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| DP.
Last edited by Davis4632 on 07/31/15 7:31 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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Davis4632
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Davis4632
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/03/15 4:16 pm ::: |
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| Davis4632 wrote: |
| http://chapelboro.com/columns/the-commentators/no-one-scapegoating-hatchell/ |
Had a nice chuckle at this excerpt:
No one from UNC Athletics has blamed Hatchell and her staff for the paper-class scandal, and no one should. Neither Hatchell nor any coach at UNC was involved in creating or perpetuating the paper classes.
There are hundreds of emails where Deb Crowder talks about placing athletes in classes or finding classes/papers for athletes. There is direct communication between academic advisors for men's basketball and women's basketball about classes, papers, scheduling, etc.
To say that they were not perpetuating the classes is a hilarious take on semantics. Three major sports had athletes geared toward these classes over the course of two decades. For this claim to be truly viable, it would mean the coaches had absolutely no control over the academics of their players and also were not involved in any discussions about eligibility or academic progress.
The hilarious part about this lie is that Roy Williams' contracts provides him with bonuses for academic achievement of his players. So he is paid directly as a result of the academic performance of his players, but claims no part or involvement with their academics, classes, papers, etc.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/05/15 1:26 pm ::: |
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A few other notes...
- The NCAA had to take a position with respect to UNC's conduct (via the NOA), but not compromise its positions with respect to the lawsuits in which it is a defendant (along with UNC) brought by former UNC players.
The scenario in which the NCAA found itself was simultaneously finding fault with UNC's conduct but not contradicting or compromising its affirmative defenses and positions in the lawsuit. The wording of the NOA reflects this.
- There are a number of other schools who put pressure to find fault with UNC's transgressions. The word is UNC vastly underestimated its enemies. Back in the 1980s, UNC and John Swofford (current ACC Commissioner, but was the UNC Athletic Director back then) led the charge against Clemson and its football program for recruiting violations and the like. The NCAA issued a penalty of probation for two years, but the ACC, led by Swofford and UNC, made it three years (along with being barred from appearing in televised games and a significant reduction in scholarships).
- UNC has spent millions on a public relations team designed to address this matter. Much of that was addressed to the COI and the NOA. But UNC redacted a LOT of information from the supplementary documents of the NOA, not to mention the fact the NCAA conducted a number of interviews that are not specifically referenced or included in the NOA (it is a "notice," after all, not the entirety of the NCAA's case and evidence. The scuttlebutt is that the supplementary documents and interviews contain information that could completely nullify the current PR campaign (also a reason that UNC was so vociferous in its redactions).
- As far as the UNC position about coaches or sports not being "specifically named" in the NOA, it is truthful, in a manner of speaking. To be “specifically” named could be construed as being the ONLY one named. As an example, men’s basketball was not “specifically” named in the NOA; it was named along with football and women's basketball.
This verbal ambiguity/semantics has been repeated to recruits over and over. The approval for the use of that wording/phrase by the head coaches (not being “specifically” named) supposedly came all the way from the top.
As for penalties, UNC has been using the "our lawyers told us" approach with recruits, which works as a way for the coaches to blame someone else once they actually get hit with sanctions.
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
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| Posted: 08/14/15 1:07 pm ::: |
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http://carolinacommitment.unc.edu/updates/unc-chapel-hill-reports-new-information-to-ncaa/
Two new violations were found; one for women's basketball and the other for men's soccer. Improper academic assistance giving to WBB players and recruiting violations fo men's soccer that occured the past TWO YEARS while a current NCCA investigation was going on. UNC was going to release their response to the NOA next week but thses new violations will probably push it back. There's no way Sylvia will get her contract extended.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 08/14/15 2:53 pm ::: |
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| Good lord, do they even have a compliance office?? This is ridiculous. I know it won't happen but they really need the book thrown at them.
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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| Posted: 08/14/15 3:59 pm ::: |
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http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25269910/unc-reports-new-violations-to-ncaa-that-should-delay-infractions-case
North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham announced Friday afternoon that the school has uncovered additional violations in women's basketball and men's soccer that will delay a resolution to UNC's case with the NCAA.
"I'm very disappointed in the timing," Cunningham said.
Which might be true.
But the timing basically ensures UNC won't be punished before National Signing Day for football or the 2016 NCAA Tournament, meaning Roy Williams' Tar Heels, a possible preseason No. 1, now run almost no risk of being banned from this upcoming season's postseason. In other words, in a twisted way, these newly discovered potential violations could prove helpful to the sports that matter most in Chapel Hill.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 08/14/15 4:49 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25269910/unc-reports-new-violations-to-ncaa-that-should-delay-infractions-case
North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham announced Friday afternoon that the school has uncovered additional violations in women's basketball and men's soccer that will delay a resolution to UNC's case with the NCAA.
"I'm very disappointed in the timing," Cunningham said.
Which might be true.
But the timing basically ensures UNC won't be punished before National Signing Day for football or the 2016 NCAA Tournament, meaning Roy Williams' Tar Heels, a possible preseason No. 1, now run almost no risk of being banned from this upcoming season's postseason. In other words, in a twisted way, these newly discovered potential violations could prove helpful to the sports that matter most in Chapel Hill. |
He's disappointed in the timing!!!????!!!?!!!
How about being upset about the violations?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 08/14/15 5:08 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college-basketball/25269910/unc-reports-new-violations-to-ncaa-that-should-delay-infractions-case
North Carolina athletic director Bubba Cunningham announced Friday afternoon that the school has uncovered additional violations in women's basketball and men's soccer that will delay a resolution to UNC's case with the NCAA.
"I'm very disappointed in the timing," Cunningham said.
Which might be true.
But the timing basically ensures UNC won't be punished before National Signing Day for football or the 2016 NCAA Tournament, meaning Roy Williams' Tar Heels, a possible preseason No. 1, now run almost no risk of being banned from this upcoming season's postseason. In other words, in a twisted way, these newly discovered potential violations could prove helpful to the sports that matter most in Chapel Hill. |
He's disappointed in the timing!!!????!!!?!!!
How about being upset about the violations? |
I took it to mean he was disappointed this was still going on after the point in time when likely believed such things had stopped. I don't blame him. Who would be dumb enough to do this after the whole world has started watching your every move?
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Durantula
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/15/15 1:17 am ::: |
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| If this spreads to too many other sports... sheesh, Carolina. You almost wonder if they'd be better off stepping down a division. Would never happen, but sheesh.
_________________
Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 08/15/15 12:55 pm ::: |
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But they're still protecting Williams and the football coach, and Sylvia is chopped liver. NC sux.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 08/15/15 2:11 pm ::: |
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| Well excuuuuuuuuse me, Artie. I don't follow football. Nevertheless, they continue to protect the sacred men's basketball program.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 08/15/15 9:39 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Well excuuuuuuuuse me, Artie. I don't follow football. Nevertheless, they continue to protect the sacred men's basketball program. |
It is sacred, after all.
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