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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 07/27/15 10:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

greatgator wrote:
Howee wrote:


I'd be surprised if she DIDN'T *retire*. Shocked I mean, what does she have to gain by fighting a very uphill battle?


Income (for herself and coaching staff)?

Respect and admiration from the players who have committed to her?



Ego, which for any coach at that level has to be pretty big.


Howee



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PostPosted: 07/27/15 10:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

greatgator wrote:
Howee wrote:


I'd be surprised if she DIDN'T *retire*. Shocked I mean, what does she have to gain by fighting a very uphill battle?


Income (for herself and coaching staff)?

Respect and admiration from the players who have committed to her?


Income? If she still needs that, than she and her advisors have failed, long ago. Her staff can find other jobs.

Otherwise, all true--but when weighed in consideration with the costs (only further damage to her rep, legal representation $$, emotional wear and tear, etc.) she might do better to ride off into the Locker Room of Life.

But. She's feisty, if nothing else. Can/should she at least fight for her honor in the regard that she's not really more culpable than Smith was (in principle, at least)??

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 07/27/15 6:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This covers the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s, which are not even part of the NOA (my discussion about the time frame is in my previous post in this thread)



ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/27/15 9:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CamrnCrz1974 wrote:
This covers the late 1980s and early to mid 1990s, which are not even part of the NOA (my discussion about the time frame is in my previous post in this thread)


What about the most recent 20 years?

What definition of "bogus classes" did you use. Not all classes in the dept were "bogus".


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 07/27/15 11:55 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wainstein totals:

5 different types of paper classes:
a) independent study
b) lecture
c) post-Crowder
d) bifurcated
e) Deb's special add-ons

Fake enrollments, by paper class type:
a) 1354 total, 343 athlete
b) 3906 total, 1852 athlete
c) 44 total, 33 athlete
d) 77 total ("virtually all athletes")
e) No estimate

1993 through 2011
Total students involved = 3,100
Total fake enrollments = 5,458*
Total fake enrollments by athletes = 2,639
(48.4% athletes)

* - Wainstein was unable to estimate total fake enrollments above this number due to inability to distinguish between real and fake enrollments in independent study paper classes. Crowder estimated 50% were fake. She was also unable to recall the total number of "special" add-ons though most were athletes.

1999 through 2011
Total fake enrollments: 3,933
Total fake enrollments by athletes: 1,871
302.54/yr (13 years)
143.92/yr by athletes
(47.6% athletes)

1993 through 1998
Total fake enrollments: 1,525
Total fake enrollments by athletes: ~768**
254.17/yr (6 years)
128/yr by athletes
(50.4% athletes)

** - giving significant benefit of doubt by applying Crowder's 50% estimate in independent study paper class enrollments by athletes (only counting 343 of the total 686 athlete enrollments in this period in addition to athlete enrollments in other varieties of paper classes)

NOTE: Over 50% of fake enrollments were by athletes, 1993-1998.


Howee



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 12:45 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cam, just out of curiousity: are you working on this case in any official capacity? I'd think not, as you'd not be inclined to be revealing info (?). On the other hand, you're VERY invested in it, seemingly. And you're a Dukey, no?

I appreciate the (presumably accurate) info you provide here; I, like many, won't touch that with any 10-ft poles you can find.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 8:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The problem with that summary is counting every enrollment in any of those classes as a "fake enrollment". That's not what Wainstein found. In fact his report states:

Over time, the paper classes became very popular among certain groups on campus, and by the summer of 2011 there were 3,933 undergraduate enrollments in these classes. Of these enrollments, 2,081 were by non-athlete undergraduate students. Some of the students were genuinely interested in the subject matter and took the class and its paper assignment seriously.

Others were simply attracted to the ease with which one could satisfy the paper requirement and obtain a high grade for very little work. Members of certain fraternities, for example, started to sign up for these paper classes, causing Crowder to bemoan to one assistant dean in 2005 that word about them had gotten into the frat circuit.

These paper classes were also very popular among student-athletes, and especially among those from the revenue sports of football and mens basketball. Approximately 1,871 of the 3,933 total enrollments between 1999 and 2011 were student-athletes, of whom 1,189 were members of the football and mens basketball teams. In percentage terms, that means that 47.6% of the paper class enrollments were student-athletes and 24.5% were football or basketball players. By comparison, approximately 4% of the Chapel Hill student body are student-athletes in any given year, and approximately 0.6% are football players.18

Like the other students, some student-athletes took these paper classes out of genuine
interest in the subject matter. Some took these classes because they like any independent study required no class time and were therefore well-suited for the student-athlete with a demanding practice, travel and game schedule. And, others gravitated to these paper classes simply because they allowed one to receive an inflated grade without having to earn it with meaningful academic work.


The summary refers to the 50% estimate but refers to the entire total as "fake enrollments." I think his conclusion was that 50% were NOT "fake".

I'm not a UNC fan. I just think the allegations are serious enough they don't need to be exagerrated.

I also find at least as disturbing as the fake class allegations those relating to fixing grades or specific requests from particular teams to change grades for individual athletes in order to keep them eligible. Those allegations in the report are limited to two sports - football and womens basketball.

"We found evidence that both Crowder and Nyangoro received requests that they award specific grades to certain student-athletes. Those requests came from two persons Associate Director of ASPSA and Director of Football Cynthia Reynolds and womens basketball academic counselor Jan Boxill (Boxill)."


Davis4632



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Cam's figures are come straight from the DevilsDen and PackPride via Dan Kane and the Raleigh N&O.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 1:35 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Davis4632 wrote:
Cam's figures are come straight from the DevilsDen and PackPride via Dan Kane and the Raleigh N&O.


My quotes come directly from the Wainstein report, not embellished by rival fansites.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 4:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

We can quibble over percentages and details, but it's pretty clear this was a high-level scam that athletes especially were aware of and took advantage of.

Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.



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pilight



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 4:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I don't think many other schools, if any, go this far. A school that would risk its accreditation over sports has its priorities very far out of whack.



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 4:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just as an aside, I suspect that there are any number of off-the-books independent study kinds of courses that are used for both good and bad purposes at nearly every university and decent-sized college.

I had two independent study courses when I was in college - one was the senior honors thesis program, where I had essentially no supervision, but had to produce a paper on my preliminary research and a final paper vetted and graded by a professor in the field, and the other was a class simply made up by the head of the English department to get me my last semester of a required writing course, which consisted of meeting with her once a month to talk about what I'd written for the college newspaper. She figured, given all the writing I was doing already, that it was pointless to make me go through what was essentially an English comp course. The honors thesis program required about as much work as any course I took in college; the English comp independent study essentially took no effort at all beyond what I already was doing.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 4:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
I suspect that there are any number of off-the-books independent study kinds of courses that are used for both good and bad purposes at nearly every university and decent-sized college.

I had two independent study courses when I was in college


So . . . your jump shot wasn't all that good?
beknighted



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 7:56 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
beknighted wrote:
I suspect that there are any number of off-the-books independent study kinds of courses that are used for both good and bad purposes at nearly every university and decent-sized college.

I had two independent study courses when I was in college


So . . . your jump shot wasn't all that good?


LOL. And my vertical wasn't so hot, either.


Howee



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 8:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I'm not doubting your position on Roy, but....can you explain how/why that might be true? It definitely seems, to me at least, that it should be a Goose/Gander thing.



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Last edited by Howee on 07/28/15 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/28/15 8:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

When people talk about Hatchell being a scapegoat or taking the fall, that seems to conveniently ignore that head football coach Butch Davis already got kicked to the curb.

And he probably took the fall for things actually done by his assistant John Blake.

He thinks he's the scapegoat.

So it's not like Hatchell would be alone in getting released.


Davis4632



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 1:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
Cam's figures are come straight from the DevilsDen and PackPride via Dan Kane and the Raleigh N&O.


My quotes come directly from the Wainstein report, not embellished by rival fansites.
Read the first two words of what I said. I know where your quotes came from.

I think UNC isn't going to do any self impose sanctions.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 8:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I'm not doubting your position on Roy, but....can you explain how/why that might be true? It definitely seems, to me at least, that it should be a Goose/Gander thing.


The report indicates that Williams stopped letting his players take the courses, and did so well before the scandal broke, so the thinking is that he's less culpable than Hatchell, whose players took the courses up until the time that they became public knowledge. (With those facts, you could construct a theory that he stopped his players taking them as soon as he was aware of them, which sort of would make him a good guy, even if he didn't report what was going on to higher ups at the university. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is plausible enough for the university's purposes.)


Howee



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 9:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I'm not doubting your position on Roy, but....can you explain how/why that might be true? It definitely seems, to me at least, that it should be a Goose/Gander thing.


The report indicates that Williams stopped letting his players take the courses, and did so well before the scandal broke, so the thinking is that he's less culpable than Hatchell, whose players took the courses up until the time that they became public knowledge. (With those facts, you could construct a theory that he stopped his players taking them as soon as he was aware of them, which sort of would make him a good guy, even if he didn't report what was going on to higher ups at the university. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is plausible enough for the university's purposes.)

Ahh. Didn't know that. Certainly, there's some redemption in that action.



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linkster



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 11:05 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I'm not doubting your position on Roy, but....can you explain how/why that might be true? It definitely seems, to me at least, that it should be a Goose/Gander thing.


The report indicates that Williams stopped letting his players take the courses, and did so well before the scandal broke, so the thinking is that he's less culpable than Hatchell, whose players took the courses up until the time that they became public knowledge. (With those facts, you could construct a theory that he stopped his players taking them as soon as he was aware of them, which sort of would make him a good guy, even if he didn't report what was going on to higher ups at the university. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is plausible enough for the university's purposes.)


I wasn't aware that a coach had the right to dictate his student-athlete's curriculum.

And maybe he found out that the scam was about to unwind and tried to distance himself from it. What we don't know is whether, after discovering the scam, he shared his discovery with the football and women's baskball coaches. The fact that he never reported it to his own higher ups tends to support the argument that he was looking out for No 1.

Like Captain Renault, coach Williams' quote would be:

I was shocked, shocked to learn that there was cheating gong on


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 12:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Davis4632 wrote:
Cam's figures are come straight from the DevilsDen and PackPride via Dan Kane and the Raleigh N&O.


My quotes come directly from the Wainstein report, not embellished by rival fansites.


My entire first post came from the analysis of the NOA, the Wainstein Report, and thousands of pages that I reviewed.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 1:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

linkster wrote:
beknighted wrote:
Howee wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Two negative conclusions:

1) North Carolina cheated big-time, and basketball (for both genders) was a major beneficiary. Sylvia Hatchell is going to have to take the fall -- how can she not be implicated? Roy Williams has a lot more plausible deniability, though to think he didn't know would be the height of naivete.

2) UNC is hardly the only school doing this, but so far is the only one that got caught. If you're going to cheat like this, at least do a better job of it. After all, most Power 5 schools keep their athletes eligible by similar means, but they aren't in the headlines.


I'm not doubting your position on Roy, but....can you explain how/why that might be true? It definitely seems, to me at least, that it should be a Goose/Gander thing.


The report indicates that Williams stopped letting his players take the courses, and did so well before the scandal broke, so the thinking is that he's less culpable than Hatchell, whose players took the courses up until the time that they became public knowledge. (With those facts, you could construct a theory that he stopped his players taking them as soon as he was aware of them, which sort of would make him a good guy, even if he didn't report what was going on to higher ups at the university. I'm not saying this is what happened, but it is plausible enough for the university's purposes.)


I wasn't aware that a coach had the right to dictate his student-athlete's curriculum.

And maybe he found out that the scam was about to unwind and tried to distance himself from it. What we don't know is whether, after discovering the scam, he shared his discovery with the football and women's baskball coaches. The fact that he never reported it to his own higher ups tends to support the argument that he was looking out for No 1.

Like Captain Renault, coach Williams' quote would be:

I was shocked, shocked to learn that there was cheating gong on


All good points. As I said, I'd read it as something that would allow UNC and the NCAA to create a narrative that would permit them to treat Williams (and Carolina MBB) better than other sports. That said, in practice there is a lot of interaction among coaches, academic advisors and athletes about class schedules, some of it good and some of it not so good.

I read a piece somewhere that said something like that, out of 100 coaches, 90 would have done nothing at all, 9 would have done what Williams did and 1 would have gone further, either telling administration about it or trying to shut it down. The context was that, while Williams didn't do the right thing, he was much closer to the side of the angels than the average coach, more a criticism of college coaches in general than praise for Williams.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 3:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.

That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 3:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.

That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball.


If that is true -- and I have no desire to dig out the details -- Hatchell should be fired, since they already forced the football coach out.



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CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 07/29/15 4:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
And again, the grade fixing/changing allegations were limited to two sports - football and women's basketball. And most of the evidence of actual grades being altered related to women's basketball.

That alone is sufficient to me to warrant different treatment for women's vs men's basketball.


You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA.


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