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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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 Posted: 11/10/15 2:44 pm ::: |
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| goforit77 wrote: |
I didn't think so... |
Don't know what your snippy comment's about. If you'd bothered to read the thread you wouldn't have needed to ask. If you cared about the facts, you'd read the report. Of course to read all that would mean that you actually care about facts and aren't just trolling.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 11/10/15 3:54 pm ::: |
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| goforit77 wrote: |
| I didn't think so... |
Exactly. I "distorted" things with quotes, excerpts, links, and documentation, whereas ArtBest has posted unsupported statements, then attacked those who questioned him.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 11/10/15 3:56 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| If you cared about the facts, you'd read the report. Of course to read all that would mean that you actually care about facts and aren't just trolling. |
Interesting, considering your previous admission:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA. |
You're right. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 11/10/15 6:18 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| If you cared about the facts, you'd read the report. Of course to read all that would mean that you actually care about facts and aren't just trolling. |
Interesting, considering your previous admission:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA. |
You're right. |
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Try harder.
Wainstein had access to all of those exhibits, and actual interviews, and far more information than you or I will ever see. Trying to draw conclusions on only part of the record leads to erroneous conclusions. I don't need to read all the evidence. I've read his report and will rely on his thorough conclusions rather than on some internet trolls. As should anyone else who actually cares about what actually happened.
You should find a more worthwhile hobby and get over your obsession with UNC.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 11/10/15 6:21 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| goforit77 wrote: |
| I didn't think so... |
Exactly. I "distorted" things with quotes, excerpts, links, and documentation, whereas ArtBest has posted unsupported statements, then attacked those who questioned him. |
Anyone who reads the thread knows this statement of yours is totally false.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 11/10/15 7:52 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| It's not my board, but if it was I'd lock this thread... |
And as it is not your board, the thread will NOT be locked unless the behavior of the posters in it degenerates into unsupported personal attacks unrelated to the substance of the topic.
If I had the luxury to not read a thread that disinterested me, I would do so. As a mod who has to make sure people are not digging themselves into holes, I don't.
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Ardent believer in the separation of church and stadium.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7849
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 11/10/15 9:58 pm ::: |
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| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7377
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 11/10/15 10:17 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off. |
+1,000,000
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7377
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 11/10/15 10:30 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I agree with CameronCrazy on this one ...
This is blatant, proven academic fraud. If the NCAA wants anyone to believe it takes the idea of student-athletes seriously -- which of course it does not -- then UNC should be punished, and severely.
But nothing's going to happen to a team SI, for one, has as No. 1 in the nation. |
I think you know that's not the point all. Not one person here has defended UNC. And everyone will be offended if the NCAA drops the ball. But that doesn't excuse an incessant crusade of misleading out of context tidbits and half truths. If you or anyone is interested in actual facts, Kenneth Wainstein's report is publicly available. Nothing else of value has been added by this thread. I question whether this forum is an appropriate place for one anonymous poster's personal crusade against a rival school. It's unfair and pretty unseemly, frankly.
There's nothing new here. It's just the same selective bits repackaged and regurgitated ad nauseum. |
Artbest, all excerpts CamCrz has posted are relevant here. This thread is about why WBB coach was not contract extended while MBB coach was, despite the overwhelming evidence that MBB coach was VERY involved in the fraud. There is a holy hoarde of Duke and NC State fans paying a LOT more attention to this. CamCrz is selecting a few to post here on this thread. Step off your holy high horse for just a minute - or even a nanosecond. Your attitude is highly offensive at the very least. Nobody here is defending UNC, but they've got $10 mil and counting (of public dollars) defending themselves. The public should uniformly be pressuring the NCAA to act justly. There is so much evidence, I'm thankful somebody has taken the time to search and give us the condensed version. |
There's nothing new. This is just the same rehashed stuff taken out of context. That Duke and NCSt fans are obsessed with it doesn't change that. This thread is a one man crusade. "Justified" by a bunch of unfounded speculation about what the NCAA might do. What not wait and see what they do do instead of crying about strawmen of your own creation.
It's not my board, but if it was I'd lock this thread until there was something new and newsworthy to discuss. There hasn't been in many months. It's just the same public stuff over and over and over again. I guess beating dead horses must be a special tradition in Durham. And it's not the "condensed" version, it's the highly selective Duke version. It's not information, it's propaganda.
And be honest. This isn't even about womens basketball. You don't care if Sylvia gets hammered. Indeed you'll be as offended as everyone else if she skates by. This is just another means for dukies to bash their main rival men's program. Suddenly for the first time in your life you're a big supporter of Hatchell just so you can complain about Roy Williams.
BTW, please explain what constructive steps you've taken to "pressure" the NCAA. Yeah. That's what I thought. |
The only one man crusader here is YOU. Nobody else is objecting to the presentation of excerpts. Whatever bee you got up your bonnet, there are other ways to work out your personal issues. Those of us without the time to read the whole report (which includes you) can benefit from highlights which DO pertain to women's bball and how wbb has already been targeted by UNC over other programs more involved with the fraud.
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Follow your passion and your life will be true down to your core.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 11/10/15 10:38 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| . . . .degenerates into unsupported personal attacks unrelated to the substance of the topic. |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off. |
Hmmmmmm.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
Posts: 5153
Location: Denver
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| Posted: 11/11/15 12:01 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| . . . .degenerates into unsupported personal attacks unrelated to the substance of the topic. |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off. |
Hmmmmmm. |
Perfect use of excerpts to remain on a high horse.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 11/11/15 7:32 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off. |
Which part of "degenerates into personal attacks" did I seem to indicate was a good idea?
General warning: the season starts in 2 days. We all want to enjoy the start of the season. I do NOT want to have to drop the banjammer on anyone right at the start of the season. Any more shenanigans from anyone in this thread and there will be consequences.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 11/11/15 10:44 am ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| The only one man crusader here is YOU. |
I completely disagree with this. For the longest time there was a single poster on this thread.
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Beemer
Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Posts: 483
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: 11/11/15 10:45 am ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| Art should really get off his high horse before he falls off. |
Or gets thrown. Tricky beasts, those high horses.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 11/11/15 2:09 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| If you cared about the facts, you'd read the report. Of course to read all that would mean that you actually care about facts and aren't just trolling. |
Interesting, considering your previous admission:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
You clearly did not read all of the exhibits and documents associated with Wainstein, SACS, and the NOA. |
You're right. |
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Try harder. |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
You also did not waste your time reviewing all of the exhibits and materials that were released as well. |
Again correct. |
My apologies to you for quoting you and using your prior admissions to contradict your current statements.
Last edited by CamrnCrz1974 on 11/11/15 4:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 11/11/15 2:16 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I don't need to read all the evidence. I've read his report and will rely on his thorough conclusions rather than on some internet trolls. As should anyone else who actually cares about what actually happened. |
Wainstein Report totals:
5 different types of paper classes:
a) independent study
b) lecture
c) post-Deb Crowder
d) bifurcated
e) Deb Crowder's special add-ons
Fake enrollments, by paper class type:
a) 1354 total, 343 athlete (independent study)
b) 3906 total, 1852 athlete (lecture)
c) 44 total, 33 athlete (post-Deb Crowder
d) 77 total, virtually all athletes, (bifurcated)
e) No estimate (Deb Crowder's special add-ons)
1993 through 2011
Total students involved = 3,100
Total fake enrollments = 5,458*
Total fake enrollments by athletes = 2,639
(48.4% athletes)
* - Wainstein was unable to estimate total fake enrollments above this number due to inability to distinguish between real and fake enrollments in independent study paper classes. Crowder estimated 50% were fake. She was also unable to recall the total number of "special" add-ons though most were athletes.
1999 through 2011
Total fake enrollments: 3,933
Total fake enrollments by athletes: 1,871
302.54/yr (13 years)
143.92/yr by athletes
(47.6% athletes)
1993 through 1998
Total fake enrollments: 1,525
Total fake enrollments by athletes: ~768**
254.17/yr (6 years)
128/yr by athletes
(50.4% athletes)
** - giving significant benefit of doubt by applying Crowder's 50% estimate in independent study paper class enrollments by athletes (only counting 343 of the total 686 athlete enrollments in this period in addition to athlete enrollments in other varieties of paper classes)
NOTE: Over 50% of fake enrollments were by athletes, 1993-1998.
------
Please feel free to verify these numbers.
Wainstein Report:
(October 2014)
3qh929iorux3fdpl532k03kg.wpeng...INAL-REPORT.pdf
SACS letter to UNC, November 2014
http://oira.unc.edu/files/2014/11/UNC-Chapel-Hill.pdf
(response due from UNC by January 7, 2015) (granted extension to January 12)
UNC 2nd Response To SACS:
(January 12, 2015)
https://oira.unc.edu/files/2015/01/UNC-Chapel-Hill-Report-to-SACSCOC-Redacted-for-Public-Release.pdf
Total athlete fake enrollments 2,645
Total fake enrollments 6806
23 years
When Roy Williams took over, there was a sudden spike in independent studies classes. In Spring of 2004, there were, astonishingly, 29 enrollments in a single semester.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 11/12/15 11:15 am ::: |
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I appreciate all this information ...
First, it makes it clear what kind of academic fraud has occurred at a major Power 5 school that aspires to have a good academic reputation -- and if UNC is doing something so blatant, it's pretty clear to me that a lot of other Power 5 schools are doing the same, in one form or another.
Second, this kind of proven activity also makes it clear that the idea of a "student-athlete" is just as empty as we have always thought it was.
Third, assuming the NCAA does nothing, or slaps UNC on the wrist, it is further evidence that the NCAA as well is completely uninterested in academic standards, and that the main purpose of college athletics is to generate large amounts of income regardless of the educational collateral damage.
Nothing new, of course, but proof is always good ...
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
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| Posted: 11/12/15 11:30 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I appreciate all this information ...
First, it makes it clear what kind of academic fraud has occurred at a major Power 5 school that aspires to have a good academic reputation -- and if UNC is doing something so blatant, it's pretty clear to me that a lot of other Power 5 schools are doing the same, in one form or another.
Second, this kind of proven activity also makes it clear that the idea of a "student-athlete" is just as empty as we have always thought it was.
Third, assuming the NCAA does nothing, or slaps UNC on the wrist, it is further evidence that the NCAA as well is completely uninterested in academic standards, and that the main purpose of college athletics is to generate large amounts of income regardless of the educational collateral damage.
Nothing new, of course, but proof is always good ... |
So from this one case you are jumping to all those conclusions? Wow. If one is doing something, most others have to be...no one cares about academics, schools or the NCAA. Got it. That's completely absurd based on my experiences as well as pretty much everyone I know, both in coaching and that work in Indianapolis at the NCAA offices.
Those are major leaps.
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FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: 11/13/15 9:24 am ::: |
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Body Count:
College of Arts & Sciences (6)
Julius Nyang'Oro (resigned; retired)
Debby Crowder (previously retired)
Travis Gore (terminated)
Tim McMillan (resigned)
Janet Boxill (resigned) - Boxill could also "count" under ASPSA
Bobbi Owen (censured; restricted)
ASPSA (3)
Beth Bridger (terminated)
Jamie Lee (terminated)
Brent Blanton (terminated)
Athletic Department (0)
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11154
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| Posted: 11/13/15 10:27 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I appreciate all this information ...
First, it makes it clear what kind of academic fraud has occurred at a major Power 5 school that aspires to have a good academic reputation -- and if UNC is doing something so blatant, it's pretty clear to me that a lot of other Power 5 schools are doing the same, in one form or another.
Second, this kind of proven activity also makes it clear that the idea of a "student-athlete" is just as empty as we have always thought it was.
Third, assuming the NCAA does nothing, or slaps UNC on the wrist, it is further evidence that the NCAA as well is completely uninterested in academic standards, and that the main purpose of college athletics is to generate large amounts of income regardless of the educational collateral damage.
Nothing new, of course, but proof is always good ... |
So from this one case you are jumping to all those conclusions? Wow. If one is doing something, most others have to be...no one cares about academics, schools or the NCAA. Got it. That's completely absurd based on my experiences as well as pretty much everyone I know, both in coaching and that work in Indianapolis at the NCAA offices.
Those are major leaps. |
So you don't believe the years of reports about slack academics, the dismal graduation rates for athletes, and the very obvious focus on winning games in major revenue sports (as opposed to giving elite athletes a quality education) can just be dismissed?
This report is hardly the only piece of evidence that shows where academics fit in the overall scheme of big-time athletics. Fraud, illiterate players, players forced into certain majors, players guided to easy classes ... these have been constants in college athletics for generations, and in fact go back to the very earliest days.
And at a certain level, I don't really mind -- but the lying and hypocrisy is what bothers me most, because that leads to young athletes and families not understanding the reality.
College sports are a huge, huge business, and the athletes are the employees of that business. Their job is to produce positive results in competition, and their academic performance, in too many cases, is simply unimportant as long as they are eligible.
I'm a fan of college sports, though not as much as I am of the pros or high school, and the product is a pretty good one. But the attempts to distort the reality of the industry, and take advantage of the naivete of young athletes and their families, is hard for me to stomach.
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CamrnCrz1974
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Howee
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