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Is the AAC mid-major or not? Final answer, please!
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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 11:24 am    ::: Is the AAC mid-major or not? Final answer, please! Reply Reply with quote

"Are there five major conferences or seven? What is Dayton that Butler is not? If a tree falls in the forest near Storrs, Connecticut, does it make the American Athletic Conference important? And if we have high majors and mid-majors, where are the low majors? All reasonable questions that philosophers could ponder on windswept Himalayan peaks." -- Graham Hays, 11/13/14

This Wikipedia article on mid-majors borders on unintelligible, and has prefatory warnings that it has "weasel words" and "vague phrasing" and may be "biased or unverifiable".

As to basketball, the article says: "Typically, the term is used to reference teams that are members of a conference other than the Power Five. Others believe the term uses an arbitrary litmus test, based on how many teams from a given conference qualify for the NCAA tournament in a "good" year, or how much success a given conference has had in the NCAA tournament, or even conference revenue and attendance."

Huh?

Then it says -- still in the basketball section -- that the University of Connecticut is "now a mid-major," even though it has won three NCAA basketball championships is the past two years.

The two mid-major women's basketball polls, CollegeInsider and ESPN, excluded the AAC last season even though it is not a "Power 5" conference.

Some people may think this is a terminological issue of no great import. Others think definitions matter.
dtrain34



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 12:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I'd say its pretty simple:

Take UConn out and its mid-major, which no doubt frustrates the other members as they are kept from the whole gamut of "nicest guy in the mafia" type honors that only go to mid-majors.

On the other hand, it's understood UConn MBB and WBB fans would be apoplectic if their teams were truly branded as mid-major.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dtrain34 wrote:
I'd say its pretty simple:


Sorry, but I don't follow the conclusion of your simplicity.

The AAC is not a mid-major conference solely because of UConn's (women's?) (women's + men's?) basketball teams?

Or it is a mid-major conference notwithstanding UConn's basketball teams?
purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 12:09 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The AAC is really, really interesting. If UConn weren't in that conference, no one would ever think of saying that is a Power conference. However because of the overwhelming dominance of the UConn women and the success of their male counterparts make people do a double take.

However, my view is that it is NOT a Power conference. I mean, if ODU or Western Kentucky of Louisiana Tech were still making Final Fours, I highly doubt anyone would consider their respective conferences as a "Power" league. Same thing with regards to Gonzaga and their conference. Both the men and women have enjoyed some major successes but no one would ever consider that a "Power" conference.

The water is a little murkier when it comes to the Atlantic 10. There are several good programs, both men and women, but none that really jump out at you. Sure, Dayton has had the most recent success and you have programs like VCU, St. Joseph's, GW, St. Louis and Davidson that have had their moments in men's or women's basketball at times. Clearly a leader in the "mid-major" category, but I don't think it puts that at "Power" conference level.

The new Big East is probably the closest to a "Power" conference with Georgetown, St John's, Villanova, Xavier, Marquette, Providence, DePaul, Seton Hall and Marquette that all have pretty strong traditions in men's and/or women's basketball. I really don't know what to consider them right now. Some of these programs have dipped quite a bit recently while a couple seem to be trending in a positive direction...it's going to be interesting to see where this league is in about 5 years.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are the Power 5 conferences, which are the majors.

Every other conference is a mid-major.

Individual schools can, however, transcend or descend from the identity of their conference.

UConn is clearly a Power 5-level team in a mid-major conference. On the other hand, there are some members of Power 5 conferences who would not win a mid-major title (in a particular sport).



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 12:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:

Individual schools can, however, transcend or descend from the identity of their conference.


Do individual schools transcend or descend for all sports at the same time, or can they transcend or descend differentially for each sport?

Using UConn as the example, are they mid-major conference or power conference in football, soccer, field hockey, track and rowing?

Kind of confusing, if not weaselly-wordy.
ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 1:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dtrain34 wrote:


On the other hand, it's understood UConn MBB and WBB fans would be apoplectic if their teams were truly branded as mid-major.


UConn finshed 6th in the AAC in MBB last year. I don't think anyone thinks SMU and Tulsa and Temple (which finished 1,2,3) are anything other than mid major.

I think the only people who don't think the AAC is a mid major conference are UConn fans and some WBB fans. But WBB really has nothing to do with it. And of course ESPN is uncomfortable acknowledging the reality regarding its home team.

The term came into popular usage in the last 15 years and was synonomous with the six BCS automatic qualifying conferences. Now there are only five conferences who are full members of the College Football Playoff and who are now the five (and only five) major conferences.

The status rests entirely on football conference membership. And has nothing to do with how good a school's teams might be. And it is reflected in who participates in the Power 5 "autonomy" meetings and votes, which does not include the AAC.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 4:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Mid-major. There really isn't any question. Even if I were just looking at WCBB, I'd say the same thing, given the conference's overall pedigree.

That said, there are mid-majors and there are mid-majors. If you tier the conferences, it's probably in the 2nd tier, along with the A-10 and maybe the BEast. (BTW, Georgetown does not have a strong WCBB tradition. It had a few years of success from 2008 to 2012, but prior to that and now they've done pretty much nothing. Even Williams-Flournoy started with 4 losing seasons, which would have gotten here fired anywhere where the administration cared.)


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 4:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It is too soon to tell. The conference has only existed for two seasons. It should remain unclassified until we have more data.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 4:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
It is too soon to tell. The conference has only existed for two seasons. It should remain unclassified until we have more data.


And what "data" do you think is missing or relevant since the only "data" that would matter would be if the Power 5 changed the College Football Playoff agreement to make the AAC a full member. Which has less chance of happening than Donald Trump has of being elected President.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 5:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
It is too soon to tell. The conference has only existed for two seasons. It should remain unclassified until we have more data.


No comprendo.

The issue is the conceptual definition of the classification, not empirical data to support inclusion in or exclusion from a defined classification.

As data change for different sports at different schools in different conferences, basing classification definitions on that would cause greater ontological relativism than what was proposed by Clay. In addition to individual sport classification relativism, we would have temporal classification relativism as empirical data for individual sports changed from year to year.
calbearman76



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 6:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
It is too soon to tell. The conference has only existed for two seasons. It should remain unclassified until we have more data.


I agree 100%. Right now the conference looks like it will slide back to mid major status, but as long as it has UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF it has the potential to stay relevant in basketball well into the future. The same is true of the Big East.

The biggest question is whether over time the lack of major conference football money will make the overall programs of the schools fall off. The AAC may be in worse position than the Big East for two reasons. First, while their basketball is arguably major, at least at the top, their football is not. Over time I believe that will drag down the perception of the conference. The Big East of the 80's and 90's already proved you can be major in just basketball.

Second, the 4 aforementioned teams would all jump at any opportunity to join a major conference, South Florida or UConn could find a home in the ACC. Cincinnati and Memphis could both get into the Big 12 if the conference decides that its name means something (and the NCAA continues to require 12 teams for a football playoff).

The terms major and mid-major have no real meaning anyway. Gonzaga is a major program in basketball even though it is in the WCC. The only real purpose is so there can be a light shined on high quality play in places that don't generally get that much publicity. For at least the next few years the AAC shouldn't be put in with the mid-majors.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 6:27 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
pilight wrote:
It is too soon to tell. The conference has only existed for two seasons. It should remain unclassified until we have more data.


I agree 100%. Right now the conference looks like it will slide back to mid major status, but as long as it has UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF it has the potential to stay relevant in basketball


I'm sorry to keep being pushy, but I keep sensing the same question begging that caused me to start the thread.

The topic question is: What is "mid-major status"? Something to do with relevance, for example, is very vague.

The definitional answer based strictly on college football's "Power 5" conferences may be arbitrary but it has the virtue of being precise. Precision by itself, however, is insufficient. There must also be uniformity of usage . . . by pundits and peasants.
Durantula



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 7:40 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The AAC is a mid-major. One team does not make the league into some powerhouse, you need to consider the merits of every league member.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 8:46 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Durantula wrote:
The AAC is a mid-major. One team does not make the league into some powerhouse, you need to consider the merits of every league member.


And it's not about "merits" anyhow. It's about control of the major football TV deals and control of the football playoffs and major bowls. It's about control of the money. And now the NCAA as a whole has formalized it by giving five conferences rule making autonomy. How much more definitive do you need it to be?

This pollyannish notion that you can somehow "earn" your way into major conference status may make people feel warm and fuzzy, but it's a fairy tale.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 8:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
The AAC may be in worse position than the Big East for two reasons.


The only thing you really need to know about the relative stature of these two conferences is that the Big East has a richer TV deal without any football than the AAC has including football.


Ladyvol777



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 9:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are only 5 Power conferences; they have the most money by a lot. UCONN will fall down so much when Geno retires unless ESPN keeps propping them up, there football program is so small they will never get in a power 5 conference. South Florida someday will get an invite to a power 5 conference. The AAC is on short time. Football rules.


Oldfandepot2



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 10:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Football rules" until mothers start to become more aware of CTE despite the NFL and the NCAA attempt to suppress the facts. Mamas won't let their sons grow up to play football.



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ball4life



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PostPosted: 06/30/15 10:32 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Low to Mid Major.


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 12:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Context dictates the meaning, Do you really want the mid-major All American team to be the entire squad at UConn? Of course not. College Insider includes 23 conferences and excludes the Atlantic 10. If I recall correctly that was done at the request of the A10.

When I was writing about the mid-majors five years ago I included the A10 because from my standpoint the Conference didn't get the widespread coverage that the top 6 got. Had I been writing 25 years ago I would have had a similar problem with Louisiana Tech and Old Dominion. They were certainly major college teams and not suitable for a discussion of mid-majors. It really doesn't matter as long you define the term when you use it.

At this point UConn is the most MAJOR team so including them in any type of mid-major grouping would seem incongruous. So for now the AAC is not a mid-major.


Conway Gamecock



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 2:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The AAC used to be the Big East, right? At one time the Big East was considered a major football conference - one of the BCS conferences. But it was also considered the weakest one towards the end of it's existence. The Big East was always hobbled due it being founded as primarily a basketball conference, and the power conferences have always been dictated by the power of their football programs, which like it or not is still the Big Daddy of revenue sports which drive all other athletic programs at major universities....

When the Big East was a major football conference, it had member institutions that had top level football programs more or less: Syracuse, Boston College, and Pittsburgh were original members. Later on the conference added Rutgers, Miami, Virginia Tech and West Virginia. These programs represented the Big East at the major-college level, and in Miami's case even won some national championships.

But there were always other members like Georgetown, Connecticut, Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, St. Johns, Holy Cross etc. that just didn't have major college level FB programs, and that kept the BE weak as a result.

Nowadays, you look at what became of the Big East: the primary colleges that didn't have major FB programs split from the old conference and returned mostly to their roots: a basketball-primary conference. The other BE programs that had the most established FB programs left for greener pastures in the ACC and Big Ten.

That left the middle children of the old Big East that had FBS FB programs, but weren't considered major level FB programs. UConn's FB program itself was FCS (Div. I-AA) only a little over a decade ago. None of the existing football programs in the AAC have ever been a part of the modern day's version of the Power Conferences (SMU was once a part of the now defunct Southwest Conference, and Tulane was once a founding member of the SEC).

They basically are former Sunbelt or Conference USA conference members, which has always been considered mid-major level. Or lower than that, once being FCS or even not existing at all over the past 20 yrs or so.

A mid-major football school can still dominate and win national championships in other sports like basketball and baseball, but they'll never be able to ride those successes to overall improvements in the respective athletic departments to rival any other in the nation, unless they also develop a competitive FB program at the national level. So by this basis of definition, yes the AAC is a mid-major conference...


ewecon



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 6:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Ladyvol777 said "UCONN will fall down so much when Geno retires unless ESPN keeps propping them up, there football program is so small they will never get in a power 5 conference. South Florida someday will get an invite to a power 5 conference. The AAC is on short time."

A fine example of pure speculation. People said the same thing about the Big East at one point.....and they were wrong.

....and what exactly do you mean "unless ESPN keeps propping them up"? How does ESPN prop them up now?


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

calbearman76 wrote:
Context dictates the meaning, Do you really want the mid-major All American team to be the entire squad at UConn? Of course not. College Insider includes 23 conferences and excludes the Atlantic 10. If I recall correctly that was done at the request of the A10.

When I was writing about the mid-majors five years ago I included the A10 because from my standpoint the Conference didn't get the widespread coverage that the top 6 got. Had I been writing 25 years ago I would have had a similar problem with Louisiana Tech and Old Dominion. They were certainly major college teams and not suitable for a discussion of mid-majors. It really doesn't matter as long you define the term when you use it.

At this point UConn is the most MAJOR team so including them in any type of mid-major grouping would seem incongruous. So for now the AAC is not a mid-major.


Are you characterizing a conference's classification as major or mid major seperately for each sport? Or are you suggesting that WBB is the sport that drives the classification for all sports? Or is it that any conference that has a single member school performing at a major level in a single sport is thereby a major conference? It wasn't clear from your post. What "test" do you consistently apply to make your assignment of classification?


pilight



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 7:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Are you characterizing a conference's classification as major or mid major seperately for each sport?


That doesn't seem unreasonable. No one considers the SEC a major conference in ice hockey, for example.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 07/01/15 8:12 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBM76, you've been kind enough to lay out your thoughts in some detail. I hope you don't mind some continued prodding, as I think others than me may have some trouble with your logic.

calbearman76 wrote:
Do you really want the mid-major All American team to be the entire squad at UConn? Of course not.


I wasn't aware there were mid-major AA teams and I personally don't care who's on them, but I don't think my subjective feelings are relevant to the objective conference classification issue. Surely the specter you raise only applies to one sport out of the many mid-major sports: women's basketball.

calbearman76 wrote:
At this point UConn is the most MAJOR team so including them in any type of mid-major grouping would seem incongruous. So for now the AAC is not a mid-major.


So you conclude that the AAC is not a mid-major based not only on just one school out of 12 in the AAC, but also on only one sport at that one school? Even if we grant UConn three strong sports -- including the declining men's basketball team and the women's field hockey team --
that highly leveraged logic seems very weak to me as an overall conference classification tool.
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