View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
ripleydc
Joined: 17 Nov 2004 Posts: 4778 Location: Washington, DC
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 6:49 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Congratulations to the USA team!
Gold medal!
Yes, Powers is an awesome player!!!
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
|
dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 18815
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 8:47 am ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
It's unfortunate this team sucks so bad that it's 2-0.
Typical discussion on RebKell; the team picked is wrong, no one is better than those left home, and the USA is going to lose soon.
And they win gold. |
Well I wonder whether after watching the US "trounce" an overmatched and severely undersized Japanese team we're going to get another lecture about how the US is going to waltz its way to the gold and that the team and coaches are beyond discussion or reproach. |
Maybe the lecture today should be about putting words in people's mouths.
Did I say trounce? Did I say they would waltz through? No, no I did not. Show it to me Art. You want to say it, back it up please and I'll gladly admit I was wrong..
But what I did say, they were not going to lose, they would win gold. And for all your nitpicking and criticism of the team, the minutes, etc. etc, what was the final result?
They won the gold medal.
|
|
Ladyvol777
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 248
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 11:08 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Congratulations to the USA... so proud of these young Ladies.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 11:51 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I don't think she was "mediocre" on the rare occassion when she was allowed to play. I think the only thing requing an explanation is why she and Range hardly played, andwhy Jones played half or less of the minutes she should have played.
.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 12:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
dtsnms wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
It's unfortunate this team sucks so bad that it's 2-0.
Typical discussion on RebKell; the team picked is wrong, no one is better than those left home, and the USA is going to lose soon.
And they win gold. |
Well I wonder whether after watching the US "trounce" an overmatched and severely undersized Japanese team we're going to get another lecture about how the US is going to waltz its way to the gold and that the team and coaches are beyond discussion or reproach. |
Maybe the lecture today should be about putting words in people's mouths.
Did I say trounce? Did I say they would waltz through? No, no I did not. Show it to me Art. You want to say it, back it up please and I'll gladly admit I was wrong..
But what I did say, they were not going to lose, they would win gold. And for all your nitpicking and criticism of the team, the minutes, etc. etc, what was the final result?
They won the gold medal. |
Well if you actually meant to say that the team and coaches were beyond discussion or reproach on a discussion board no matter how bad they looked, no matter how inexplicable the choices, and no matter that they lucked out in double OT over a team the US should crush, I'll just say (1) sorry for misunderstanding that's what you meant, and (2) that's even more ridiculous than what I thought you meant.
|
|
dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 18815
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 1:02 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
It's unfortunate this team sucks so bad that it's 2-0.
Typical discussion on RebKell; the team picked is wrong, no one is better than those left home, and the USA is going to lose soon.
And they win gold. |
Well I wonder whether after watching the US "trounce" an overmatched and severely undersized Japanese team we're going to get another lecture about how the US is going to waltz its way to the gold and that the team and coaches are beyond discussion or reproach. |
Maybe the lecture today should be about putting words in people's mouths.
Did I say trounce? Did I say they would waltz through? No, no I did not. Show it to me Art. You want to say it, back it up please and I'll gladly admit I was wrong..
But what I did say, they were not going to lose, they would win gold. And for all your nitpicking and criticism of the team, the minutes, etc. etc, what was the final result?
They won the gold medal. |
Well if you actually meant to say that the team and coaches were beyond discussion or reproach on a discussion board no matter how bad they looked, no matter how inexplicable the choices, and no matter that they lucked out in double OT over a team the US should crush, I'll just say (1) sorry for misunderstanding that's what you meant, and (2) that's even more ridiculous than what I thought you meant. |
Post deleted...just don't want to waste my time here....clearly that is not what I said, and you are just looking to belittle and talk down to another poster again.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 2:24 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
dtsnms wrote: |
It's unfortunate this team sucks so bad that it's 2-0.
Typical discussion on RebKell; the team picked is wrong, no one is better than those left home, and the USA is going to lose soon.
And they win gold. |
dtsnms wrote: |
you are just looking to belittle and talk down to another poster again. |
Let me get this straight. YOU make a snide condescending post ridiculing this Board and every participant in this thread for having the temerity to discuss the shortcomings of this WUG team, and I'm supposedly the one "belittling" and "talking down" to another poster?
Classic. Just classic.
|
|
dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004 Posts: 18815
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 2:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtsnms wrote: |
It's unfortunate this team sucks so bad that it's 2-0.
Typical discussion on RebKell; the team picked is wrong, no one is better than those left home, and the USA is going to lose soon.
And they win gold. |
dtsnms wrote: |
you are just looking to belittle and talk down to another poster again. |
Let me get this straight. YOU make a snide condescending post ridiculing this Board and every participant in this thread for having the temerity to discuss the shortcomings of this WUG team, and I'm supposedly the one "belittling" and "talking down" to another poster?
Classic. Just classic. |
Yep, that's it, definitely. Just like always, you're right again Art.
I said it was a typical discussion on RebKell where people criticize the selections. That is clearly snide and condescending to everyone who posts on the board.
On the other hand, I'm sorry I mistook "that's even more ridiculous than what I thought you meant" as being belittling or condescending.
Clearly you were praising my different take on things, as you do so frequently to so many.
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15746 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 2:50 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Ya, Nina Davis' lack of playing time is odd. Wasn't she the Big 12 POY, or the tourney MVP? I just know she's been a tremendous player on a strong Baylor team. Odd.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11155
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 3:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Howee wrote: |
Ya, Nina Davis' lack of playing time is odd. Wasn't she the Big 12 POY, or the tourney MVP? I just know she's been a tremendous player on a strong Baylor team. Odd. |
As always, unless you're at practice every day, substitution patterns are very likely not to appear to make that much sense. If you are at practice every day, usually decisions are seen in a very different light.
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 4:54 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
There would probably be fewer raised eyebrows if USA basketball had no history of choices that appeared political or otherwise strange.
I saw on a different board a discussion of the fact that the two players with the most minutes on the U19 team yesterday happened to be the two players for team coaches. Fair or not, people notice those patterns.
|
|
dtbtbtb
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 122
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 5:20 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Davis is an interesting player when considering her potential for the next level. While she is great in college, will her limited range and size be an obstacle? It seems that for the WUG, the coaches preferred to go with a bigger players (McCall and Powers) at the 3 and 4 positions...
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 5:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
dtbtbtb wrote: |
Davis is an interesting player when considering her potential for the next level. While she is great in college, will her limited range and size be an obstacle? It seems that for the WUG, the coaches preferred to go with a bigger players (McCall and Powers) at the 3 and 4 positions... |
Powers and Davis are at most an inch different in height.
|
|
PickledGinger
Joined: 04 Oct 2013 Posts: 1365
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 5:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtbtbtb wrote: |
Davis is an interesting player when considering her potential for the next level. While she is great in college, will her limited range and size be an obstacle? It seems that for the WUG, the coaches preferred to go with a bigger players (McCall and Powers) at the 3 and 4 positions... |
Powers and Davis are at most an inch different in height. |
But Powers has a perimeter game and can play 3 positions, whereas Davis can only play the 4. She's a dominant scorer in Mulkey's system, but unless she overhauls her game I have a hard time seeing her translate to other levels of competition. Apparently so did the WUG coaches.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 6:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
PickledGinger wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtbtbtb wrote: |
Davis is an interesting player when considering her potential for the next level. While she is great in college, will her limited range and size be an obstacle? It seems that for the WUG, the coaches preferred to go with a bigger players (McCall and Powers) at the 3 and 4 positions... |
Powers and Davis are at most an inch different in height. |
But Powers has a perimeter game and can play 3 positions, whereas Davis can only play the 4. She's a dominant scorer in Mulkey's system, but unless she overhauls her game I have a hard time seeing her translate to other levels of competition. Apparently so did the WUG coaches. |
I wasn't comparing her game to Powers, just addressing the comment that the decision was based on "bigger players".
Davis is a lot more than a "system player". She's a tremendous scorer, rebounder and defender. She's a team player, not a ball hog, and she protects the basketball. Not only was she a WBCA and AP 1ST Team All American, she's the ONLY All American on the entire WUG roster. Not Powers, not McCall. It seems inexplicable that she spent the games mostly superglued to the bench.
|
|
dtbtbtb
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 Posts: 122
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 7:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
PickledGinger wrote: |
ArtBest23 wrote: |
dtbtbtb wrote: |
Davis is an interesting player when considering her potential for the next level. While she is great in college, will her limited range and size be an obstacle? It seems that for the WUG, the coaches preferred to go with a bigger players (McCall and Powers) at the 3 and 4 positions... |
Powers and Davis are at most an inch different in height. |
But Powers has a perimeter game and can play 3 positions, whereas Davis can only play the 4. She's a dominant scorer in Mulkey's system, but unless she overhauls her game I have a hard time seeing her translate to other levels of competition. Apparently so did the WUG coaches. |
I wasn't comparing her game to Powers, just addressing the comment that the decision was based on "bigger players".
Davis is a lot more than a "system player". She's a tremendous scorer, rebounder and defender. She's a team player, not a ball hog, and she protects the basketball. Not only was she a WBCA and AP 1ST Team All American, she's the ONLY All American on the entire WUG roster. Not Powers, not McCall. It seems inexplicable that she spent the games mostly superglued to the bench. |
McCall is bigger (6'3) and Powers can shoot from mid/long range....it will be interesting next season to see if Davis plays the 3 at Baylor (she palyed the 4 the last 2 seasons). I doubt the WUG coaches had anything against Davis (who whenever she played did so with heart and effort) but still went with McCall and Powers
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009 Posts: 15746 Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 8:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ArtBest23 wrote: |
There would probably be fewer raised eyebrows if USA basketball had no history of choices that appeared political or otherwise strange.
I saw on a different board a discussion of the fact that the two players with the most minutes on the U19 team yesterday happened to be the two players for team coaches. Fair or not, people notice those patterns. |
This.
University Games might not raise eyebrows, but it IS a pattern that's hard to ignore, once you see it.
Re: Nina--as a Big 12 fan, I've been pondering for 2 seasons now, HOW this girl, at 5'11", gets her stats. First you figure, maybe it's just certain teams that she goes off on. But then when you watch Baylor's games, on up through the NCAA tourney: she scores 20 pts against an excellent Iowa team, and 26 pts/12 reb against finalist ND--more than double the points of either ND starting post. That's some talent, height be damned!
One thing she often does is get a huge % of her points at the charity stripe. THAT'S an oft-overlooked skill, but she's got it. (My theory is that, as an undersized 4, defensive players look at her, are convinced they can easily stop her, and overplay her. And she's also been good at refining the *art* of flopping). That could have been a helpful factor in some of this team's games, if only to get key opponents into foul trouble.
Sorry Clay: I don't think one has to be at these practices to realize this kid was definitely underutilized. I'd buy into that theory 90% of the time, on a team like this, but not for her.
_________________ Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
Last edited by Howee on 07/13/15 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
awhom111
Joined: 19 Nov 2014 Posts: 4236
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 8:48 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Kansas and friends impressively managed to win the Men's tournament, so it will be interesting to see if they continue to go with that format in 2017. There are no Pan American Games in 2017, so there should be no handicap to the United States sending their strongest team in that year on the Women's side.
On the subject of nepotism, no claims can be made for that happening with the Men's Pan American Games team. Tad Boyle did not get Josh Scott on the roster. Committee member Matt Painter did not get Isaac Haas on the roster. The only tie that anyone had was Melo Trimble being on the roster with Mark Turgeon as an on court practice coach.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 8231 Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
Posted: 07/13/15 10:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Nina Davis was voted one of the five best college players in America just three months ago by both the AP and Wooden. Yet she played only 10.5 minutes a game in WUG, averaging 5.0 ppg and 2.8 rpg.
I guess the WUG coaches don't agree with the AP or Wooden.
It didn't surprise me that Aerial Powers was a better scorer, but it sure surprised me that Erica McCall was. And they both were great rebounders.
The seemingly much maligned (here) Mercedes Russell led the team in rebounding and was third in both scoring and minutes.
Link to PDF stats:
http://www.usab.com/womens/world-university-games/stats.aspx |
|
Oldfandepot2
Joined: 05 Jul 2013 Posts: 996 Location: Northeast
Back to top |
Posted: 07/14/15 7:49 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Russell played well but the wider lanes in international played exposed a weakness in the more traditional back to the basket post player. The Japanese were able to penetrate at will against the slower post players of the USA. I am surprised that Joe did not stay with the smaller line up of Davis, Weise, Williams and Powers where he experienced great success especially on defense. With that line up although they may have sacrificed size they would still have had superior talent on the floor and I beileve would have neutralized Japan's ability to penetrate to a much greater degree.
Russell played well on the offensive end but had difficulty on defensive end. The arrival of the more mobile stretch players in Stewart, Stevens, Turner and Wilson will provide the size, quickness and the athleticism to play on both ends of the court particularly on the defense where they can more readily stop penetration.
I am extremely happy they won the gold and looking forword to continued success. I believe the USA must continue in order to repeat their success adjust to the international court and rules. The WUG was an invaluable experience for the players, the coaches and for the USAB as an organization.
_________________ Cave Canem!
We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005 Posts: 11155
Back to top |
Posted: 07/14/15 10:22 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I've never understood why USA Basketball loves Erica McCall, but whatever she does in practice for them seems to impress the coaches.
Whatever Nina Davis didn't do in practice must have had an impact as well, because the prorated stats (roughly -- I did it in my head) aren't that different. Davis didn't get to the line as much, but turned the ball over way less.
The only thing I can think of is that USA Basketball is thinking about who might be able to play for the National Team, and maybe they feel that Davis is just too small to be a four at the elite international level. But that's just a guess ...
_________________ Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013 Posts: 14550
Back to top |
Posted: 07/14/15 11:18 am ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
I've never understood why USA Basketball loves Erica McCall, but whatever she does in practice for them seems to impress the coaches.
Whatever Nina Davis didn't do in practice must have had an impact as well, because the prorated stats (roughly -- I did it in my head) aren't that different. Davis didn't get to the line as much, but turned the ball over way less.
The only thing I can think of is that USA Basketball is thinking about who might be able to play for the National Team, and maybe they feel that Davis is just too small to be a four at the elite international level. But that's just a guess ... |
Since you like prorated stats and used them to compare Russell and Jones earlier in the thread, I thought I'd take a look at the final.
Normalizing Jones's performance to Russell's minutes yields (where two numbers are presented it represents total/avg. Where numbers are small, such as steals, only the total for 6 games is shown.):
Points Russell 78/13.0 Jones 94/15.6
Rebounds Russell 55/9.2 Jones 59/9.8
Blocks Russell 3 Jones 6
Steals Russell 4 Jones 10
Assists Russell 5 Jones 6
Turnovers Russell 12 Jones 18
So, prorated, Jones had more points, more rebounds, double the blocks, more than double the steals, more assists. Only place she's behind is that she had more turnovers. (I wonder who they charged the TO to on all those passes that went through Russell's hands or off her fingers. Must have been charged as "wild pitches" to the guard rather than "passed balls" to Russell)
So, to the extent stats matter, I'm still looking for an explanation (other than the obvious "which had her coach sitting on the bench") for why Russell played twice as many minutes as Jones. Jones was obviously more productive when she was in the game.
|
|
Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012 Posts: 2539
Back to top |
Posted: 07/14/15 11:25 am ::: |
Reply |
|
First of all, I want to apologize to those I may have thought were over reacting to some of USAs picks, playing time and other stuff. I am actually starting to hear and see what people have been telling me for quite some time. The more you hear and the more I see certain players, one can start to make better judgement calls. As far as McCall goes, I too am baffled. She is NOT 6' 3", she is very undersized in the PAC, so that argument doesn't seem to fly. She is a hard worker so may come across as a better hustle player in practice as Clay alludes to but she has many flaws. She can appear more athletic when players are smaller as many of them were in this tournament but at the college level she makes the same moves and mistakes over and over - takes jump shots at bad times and rarely makes them, will force up lay ups when doubled etc. She is probably the worst decision maker on her team.
It seems that the whole college coach coaching players at this age causes too much conflict. A lot of my friends that coach at the college level are livid right now. Their arguments seem to be more valid that it is being used to enhance recruiting, cause conflict for other coaches and validate agendas which can be wide ranging. Lots of solutions have been thrown out there including non D1 coaches coaching etc. there are some good coaches at these other levels, but the question is why not take out the cause for many complaints?
|
|
patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010 Posts: 2313 Location: Culver City, CA
Back to top |
Posted: 07/14/15 4:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
ClayK wrote: |
As always, unless you're at practice every day, substitution patterns are very likely not to appear to make that much sense. If you are at practice every day, usually decisions are seen in a very different light. |
I need to just copy this quote and make it a sig to follow everything I ever post over on the UCLA board.
|
|
|
|