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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 04/10/15 10:45 am ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| Don't get me wrong - I'm not surprised at all (and, honestly, I suspect you'd find that a lot of fans of the men's game felt the same way thirty years ago or whenever it was that players started leaving early for the NBA). But it is a double standard (partly embodied in OGS) nevertheless. In fact, considering how rare the opportunity is for women, it's actually worse for people to complain about it from my perspective. |
The "standard" for each sport is different.
If Lloyd were the 5,000th (or whatever number the latest college-to-NBA jumper is) WCB player to do it and was then trashed by a majority of fans, I'd agree about double standards.
But it's not an equal opportunity, practice, or even fanbase, so said reaction shouldn't be construed as a double standard, imo, despite lloyd having a vagina and ovaries instead of a penis and testicles. |
My simplistic approach here is to say "same behavior, different response" = double standard. There certainly are reasons for the double standard, as you note, but that doesn't mean it's not one. (And I don't think the different fanbase point is valid, by the way - none of the WCBB fans who might be saying Loyd or Zahui B. should stay would say the same thing about a guaranteed top 5 NBA draft choice. In fact, and somewhat ironically, I suspect that the MCBB fanbase, to the extent it cares about WCBB, wouldn't have a problem with them leaving early.)
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 10:55 am ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
The "standard" for each sport is different.
If Lloyd were the 5,000th (or whatever number the latest college-to-NBA jumper is) WCB player to do it and was then trashed by a majority of fans, I'd agree about double standards.
But it's not an equal opportunity, practice, or even fanbase, so said reaction shouldn't be construed as a double standard, imo, despite lloyd having a vagina and ovaries instead of a penis and testicles. |
Probably need to divide that fanbase too.
There are fans, including many on this board, who want to see WBB treated on a more equal footing with MBB. Who want schools to stop treating their women's team as second class citizens. Who want them to hire good coaches and stop tolerating perpetual mediocrity. Who want more TV coverage. Who want better pay for the women's games. And some of whom want things like "lady" tags to be eliminated.
And then there's a large group of WBB fans who, as you describe them are afflicted with "Our Girls Syndrome" and who actually perpetuate the stereotypes and patronizing "protective" attitudes.
I suspect those in the first group think it's great that Loyd has the opportunity to go make a living playing her sport and think she ought to have the same opportunity to do so as the men. And that those in the latter group feel betrayed and don't find her having or taking that opportunity to be significant.
I suspect the first group sees the reaction as a definite double standard, and that those in the second see no problem in the disparate treatment.
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SueFavor
Joined: 20 May 2013
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
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| Posted: 04/10/15 11:19 am ::: |
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| sigur3 wrote: |
| SueFavor wrote: |
Why all the judgement?
Why not take the facts just as they are?
Jewell Loyd did not ask any of you for your opinions on her decision. |
It's very disappointing that a young lady be treated like this, after all she's done for the program. There was recently an article posted in the South Bend Tribune (which I will not link to, because it does not deserve clicks) that re-labeled Loyd's "legacy" as "a mystery who left her teammates dangling." Save that shit for the NBA, please... |
Seven Kentucky players are leaving for the NBA draft. Where's the backlash on that?_________________ hoopism.blogspot.com
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pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:15 pm ::: |
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| Seven Kentucky players are leaving for the NBA draft. Where's the backlash on that? |
You're kidding, right? Men's players leaving college basketball early has been a raging debate for about 30 years. Even the Wisconsin coach took a swipe at it in the NCAA finals post game presser Monday night.
I think one of the reasons for the blowback on Loyd is that folks were led to believe she'd already made a different decision. An ESPN story over the weekend had Muffet McGraw detailing how she and Loyd had already discussed this and Loyd told her she was returning to school. A couple of days later, the extremely reputable Seattle Times reporter Jayda Evans reported that after an e-mail exchange with Notre Dame sports information director Chris Masters, she was "convinced" Loyd was staying in school. So people were understandably caught off guard by Loyd's seeming about-face. Folks often react emotionally when they're caught off-guard.
Also, I found it interesting that Notre Dame's release on Loyd's decision quoted the player's statement to the Associated Press and not words the school had gotten from Loyd itself. Did Notre Dame not see this coming, either?
I also think it's unfortunate she had just 24 hours after what surely was an emotionally draining season finale to make such a big decision. I suspect it's tough, perhaps even counter-productive, to focus heavily on such a personal decision when you're within the bubble of your college team and chasing a title. Wouldn't it be better to allow at least a couple of days to decompress and then consult with pro officials with a clear head?
The Kentucky men's coach is fond of saying that during the season, it's all about the team; once the season's over, it's all about what's best for each individual. I don't think 24 hours is adequate for the latter.
For the record, I personally have no problem with Loyd acting in what she believes are her best interests, whichever way that cuts.
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:22 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
IIRC, Shaq went back and finished his, although Lord knows HE didn't need to, "because he had promised his momma he would." Also I think he had, somewhere along the line, made a promise to himself.
At Tennessee, it came to be a tradition....every player that played 4 years for Pat graduated. Most who didn't play the full 4 also graduated, including the JUCO transfers Bobbitt and Auguste, and an awful lot of them graduated in 3 years. I remember more than one year when she had multiple grad students on the team. It is traditional for the girls to sign their names on a column in the practice facility when they graduate, and that column is quite a wonder to behold. The tradition of graduating continues under Holly Warlick. Pictures are taken every year of that year's grads from the team signing their names to the column. Izzy, Cierra, and Ariel will sign this year. |
Slightly related, didn't Tamika Catchings leave Tennessee with a Bachelor's and Master's in 4 years?
Edited: I just looked at her WNBA bio, it seems she was finished with her Bachelor's degree in 3 1/2 years, started her Master's program that last semester as she finished out her eligibility and she finished her Master's while she was playing in the WNBA.
And I've always been impressed by Nicky Anosike, she graduated with 3 Bachelor's degrees in 4 years. |
Coquese Washington and, I think, Letitia Bowman did something similar at ND, although in both cases they ended up with law degrees.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:24 pm ::: |
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| Assuming Loyd is invited to attend the draft, I wonder if McGraw will join her like she has for other former players.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:27 pm ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Seven Kentucky players are leaving for the NBA draft. Where's the backlash on that? |
You're kidding, right? Men's players leaving college basketball early has been a raging debate for about 30 years. Even the Wisconsin coach took a swipe at it in the NCAA finals post game presser Monday night.
I think one of the reasons for the blowback on Loyd is that folks were led to believe she'd already made a different decision. An ESPN story over the weekend had Muffet McGraw detailing how she and Loyd had already discussed this and Loyd told her she was returning to school. A couple of days later, the extremely reputable Seattle Times reporter Jayda Evans reported that after an e-mail exchange with Notre Dame sports information director Chris Masters, she was "convinced" Loyd was staying in school. So people were understandably caught off guard by Loyd's seeming about-face. Folks often react emotionally when they're caught off-guard.
Also, I found it interesting that Notre Dame's release on Loyd's decision quoted the player's statement to the Associated Press and not words the school had gotten from Loyd itself. Did Notre Dame not see this coming, either?
I also think it's unfortunate she had just 24 hours after what surely was an emotionally draining season finale to make such a big decision. I suspect it's tough, perhaps even counter-productive, to focus heavily on such a personal decision when you're within the bubble of your college team and chasing a title. Wouldn't it be better to allow at least a couple of days to decompress and then consult with pro officials with a clear head?
The Kentucky men's coach is fond of saying that during the season, it's all about the team; once the season's over, it's all about what's best for each individual. I don't think 24 hours is adequate for the latter. |
I don't think she made it in 24 hours, regardless of what she may have told people in the previous two weeks.
I find it notable that her mother travelled to see all of her NCAA games this year. I don't recall ever seeing her mother pointed out in the crowd before. Not at previous tournaments. Not even at ND home games 90 miles from home. It strikes me as very possibly a "last time to see her play at ND" type of thing.
Everyone knew the deadline. The likelihood that Jewell woke up Wednesday morning and said "gee, seems like a good day to turn pro" is probably zero. And, a post on the WNBA board indicated yesterday that she had already hired an agent. She didn't do that in 24 hours either.
Fans were going to be surprised when ever she did announced it. I haven't seen any "emotional" reaction from anyone in the athletic department at ND, so even if they were surprised, they aren't showing it.
But personally, I think Jewell has been seriously considering this, if not firmly decided on it, for some time before her Wednesday announcement.
Oh, and nobody cares a bit about the Ky players leaving. Everyone has known they were likely all leaving this year since before they ever even committed to Ky a year ago. There was no backlash at all. Yeah, Bo Ryan made a stupid comment about "we don't use rent-a-players" but that wasn't a complaint about the players leaving, it was a shot at Kentucky for annually stocking its team with one year mercenaries, and it was met universally with "stop whining Bo" criticism.
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:42 pm ::: |
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I haven't really gotten around to entering this discussion (partly because I've got stuff happening on a personal level, and partly because I'm not sure how to react and I'm giving it time to see the end result (as Bart pointed out, she still has time to reconsider, and could end up staying anyway)).
As for the blow back, I'm not one to go out and attack decisions like this (Might be upset about it, but I'm not going to attack her for making this decision, which has to do with her life), but there is one other factor for other fans that hasn't been mentioned. It's ND. It's a school that does pride itself on emphasizing getting the degree and not being just a school that is a "football factory" so to speak. I remember my senior year when Rocket Ismael decided to leave ND early for the CFL. The immediate response on campus was along the lines of "What? This is ND. Players aren't supposed to leave early for the pros from here!" And for this to happen in a sport where it doesn't often happen generally kind of compounds the shock.
When you first get this shock you often respond more with emotions than thought, which is another reason why I try not to react online too quickly to news like this. Twitter in general is filled with messages from people who react to stuff before thinking (not referring to just this topic) that they later regretting putting online.
Last edited by CBiebel on 04/10/15 1:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:43 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| Oh, and nobody cares a bit about the Ky players leaving. Everyone has known they were likely all leaving this year since before they ever even committed to Ky a year ago. There was no backlash at all. Yeah, Bo Ryan made a stupid comment about "we don't use rent-a-players" but that wasn't a complaint about the players leaving, it was a shot at Kentucky for annually stocking its team with one year mercenaries, and it was met universally with "stop whining Bo" criticism. |
The main backlash, and it's a pretty heavy one each year, is against the system that essentially forces NBA prospects to spend a year in college before entering pro ball. But trust me, some of these players are getting ripped pretty good for leaving "before they're ready," as though that's their call to make.
As for when Loyd actually made her decision, I don't want to speculate. But I have to believe that McGraw and Masters wouldn't have said what they said earlier this week unless they were confident Loyd was intending to stay.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:50 pm ::: |
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| CBiebel wrote: |
| I remember my senior year when Rocket Ismael decided to leave ND early for the CFL. The immediate response on campus was along the lines of "What? This is ND. Players aren't supposed to leave early for the pros from here!" |
That was twenty four years ago. You didn't see that reaction when Kyle Rudolph or Troy Niklas left early in recent years, did you?
I don't recall anyone ripping Rudolph. And the reaction to Niklas was more of "he could be a higher choice and make more money if he spent another year in college."
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 1:56 pm ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Oh, and nobody cares a bit about the Ky players leaving. Everyone has known they were likely all leaving this year since before they ever even committed to Ky a year ago. There was no backlash at all. Yeah, Bo Ryan made a stupid comment about "we don't use rent-a-players" but that wasn't a complaint about the players leaving, it was a shot at Kentucky for annually stocking its team with one year mercenaries, and it was met universally with "stop whining Bo" criticism. |
The main backlash, and it's a pretty heavy one each year, is against the system that essentially forces NBA prospects to spend a year in college before entering pro ball. But trust me, some of these players are getting ripped pretty good for leaving "before they're ready," as though that's their call to make.
As for when Loyd actually made her decision, I don't want to speculate. But I have to believe that McGraw and Masters wouldn't have said what they said earlier this week unless they were confident Loyd was intending to stay. |
Every year players get mocked for overestimating their place in the basketball world. Every year there are players who come out early and don't make rosters. I don't think that's the type of criticism being leveled at Loyd. Let me know when you hear a mens player projected as the top overall pick getting criticized for leaving school.
And I agree that McGraw appears not to have know several days ago. But that doesn't mean that Jewell didn't know or wasn't seriously considering it. I don't find that particularly surprising and it certainly wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 2:20 pm ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
| I also think it's unfortunate she had just 24 hours after what surely was an emotionally draining season finale to make such a big decision. |
For a couple of years the W held the draft the day after the finals in the same city the game was played in. To get the rookies through orientation and into training camp they can't wait much later.
If you think the reaction is bad now, imagine if she'd announced it before the tournament and then had those subpar games in the F4. Everyone would say she'd checked out early. Plus the NCAA would have a fit.
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SueFavor
Joined: 20 May 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 2:28 pm ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Seven Kentucky players are leaving for the NBA draft. Where's the backlash on that? |
You're kidding, right? Men's players leaving college basketball early has been a raging debate for about 30 years. Even the Wisconsin coach took a swipe at it in the NCAA finals post game presser Monday night.
I think one of the reasons for the blowback on Loyd is that folks were led to believe she'd already made a different decision. An ESPN story over the weekend had Muffet McGraw detailing how she and Loyd had already discussed this and Loyd told her she was returning to school. A couple of days later, the extremely reputable Seattle Times reporter Jayda Evans reported that after an e-mail exchange with Notre Dame sports information director Chris Masters, she was "convinced" Loyd was staying in school. So people were understandably caught off guard by Loyd's seeming about-face. Folks often react emotionally when they're caught off-guard.
Also, I found it interesting that Notre Dame's release on Loyd's decision quoted the player's statement to the Associated Press and not words the school had gotten from Loyd itself. Did Notre Dame not see this coming, either?
I also think it's unfortunate she had just 24 hours after what surely was an emotionally draining season finale to make such a big decision. I suspect it's tough, perhaps even counter-productive, to focus heavily on such a personal decision when you're within the bubble of your college team and chasing a title. Wouldn't it be better to allow at least a couple of days to decompress and then consult with pro officials with a clear head?
The Kentucky men's coach is fond of saying that during the season, it's all about the team; once the season's over, it's all about what's best for each individual. I don't think 24 hours is adequate for the latter.
For the record, I personally have no problem with Loyd acting in what she believes are her best interests, whichever way that cuts. |
It's an example of the double-standard, fool.
Here's a more simple question for the board:
Why isn't the backlash against Zahui B. as big as that for Loyd?
Discuss._________________ hoopism.blogspot.com
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whoopsworld@aol.com |
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pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 2:30 pm ::: |
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No easy way to say, "I'm leaving," I guess.
I do think that the 24-hour window forces a player in Loyd's situation - which I realize won't come up often - to err on the side of declaring for the draft while continuing to weigh things out. I'm not saying Loyd's doing that. But had she not declared Wednesday and then had second thoughts, she'd be stuck.
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pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 2:33 pm ::: |
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| It's an example of the double-standard, fool. |
Fool?
How utterly childish of you.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 04/10/15 3:16 pm ::: |
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| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Ex-Ref wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| tfan wrote: |
The fans of the Notre Dame men's team are not the same fans as of the woman's team. Women's basketball fans are not used to players leaving early, so will reflect on it differently. |
Hmmmm. Maybe you can fill me in on what qualifies you as an expert on how Notre Dame fans will respond. It's certainly never been obvious to me at least that you have any particular connection to or affinity for Notre Dame. If I've been missing something, please let me know. |
I've talked to 5 ND season ticket holders. Two aren't happy with her, two are pretty much done with her and one I didn't really have a chance to get into it too far. I think that he'd be pretty much "whatever" with it. |
I know it's not your feelings, so you may not be able to say, but what exactly does "done with her" mean? |
I had the feeling that it meant that if she came back to a game that they wouldn't clap when the put her on the video board or go to a game of whatever WNBA team she's on. Almost like she doesn't exist anymore. The one shook his head, and did that push-away gesture with his hand as he was turning to walk away. I guess 'snub' would be another way to put it. At least that was kind of how I took it.
The two 'aren't happy' people have been going to the games for probably 20 years. The two 'done with her people' 10-12 years probably. The 'whatever' guy maybe 3-4 years. |
Thanks, that what I was thinking they meant, but I wasn't sure if I was just reading that statement differently than it was intended to be.
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SueFavor
Joined: 20 May 2013
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| Posted: 04/10/15 4:59 pm ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
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| It's an example of the double-standard, fool. |
Fool?
How utterly childish of you.
Enjoy the rest of your day. |
It's because of people like you that this board has such a reprehensible reputation._________________ hoopism.blogspot.com
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pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 5:28 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| It's because of people like you that this board has such a reprehensible reputation. |
If it's so reprehensible, why are you here?
Look, I don't know what your problem is, but I don't appreciate your tone or the juvenile direction you've taken things. I don't even know why you're so agitated.
If you care to enlighten me, send a direct message. If you feel something I've posted is out of line, contact a moderator.
But if it's a mere difference of opinion that's bothering you, well, grow up.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 5:53 pm ::: |
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GUYS. No personal insults. I don't want to have to bring in the banjammer for an ill-considered word or two.
I would personally also appreciate if the rhetoric toned down a notch or two, but that's a personal observation, not a mod observation.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/10/15 6:47 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
The "standard" for each sport is different.
If Lloyd were the 5,000th (or whatever number the latest college-to-NBA jumper is) WCB player to do it and was then trashed by a majority of fans, I'd agree about double standards.
But it's not an equal opportunity, practice, or even fanbase, so said reaction shouldn't be construed as a double standard, imo, despite lloyd having a vagina and ovaries instead of a penis and testicles. |
Probably need to divide that fanbase too.
There are fans, including many on this board, who want to see WBB treated on a more equal footing with MBB. Who want schools to stop treating their women's team as second class citizens. Who want them to hire good coaches and stop tolerating perpetual mediocrity. Who want more TV coverage. Who want better pay for the women's games. And some of whom want things like "lady" tags to be eliminated.
And then there's a large group of WBB fans who, as you describe them are afflicted with "Our Girls Syndrome" and who actually perpetuate the stereotypes and patronizing "protective" attitudes.
I suspect those in the first group think it's great that Loyd has the opportunity to go make a living playing her sport and think she ought to have the same opportunity to do so as the men. And that those in the latter group feel betrayed and don't find her having or taking that opportunity to be significant.
I suspect the first group sees the reaction as a definite double standard, and that those in the second see no problem in the disparate treatment. |
I guess my pov doesn't fit into an either/or scenario.
I have no problem w/ Lloyd going pro. It's her decision to make, she's a big girl, etc etc. As a UConn fan I welcome the move (although she has been nothing short of "oops, jewely" w/ 8-33 FGs in her 2 NC games vs CT).
However, I disagree w/ the double standard tag because, as said above, the standards aren't the same. If WCB players had been going pro "early" for as long as men, I suspect the "backlash" would be substantially less.
Par example, Elvis stood uptight white America on its ear in 1956 by gyrating his hips. Today it would draw yawns.
Lloyd's decision is unusual in WCB and apparently contradicts what she told her coach just a few days earlier, so no one is surprised some have taken umbrage.
An actual double standard, imo, would occur if a woman played MCB, jumped to the NBA after her frosh year, and caught holy hell for it. In that scenario, gender is the single significant difference.
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 04/10/15 11:59 pm ::: |
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| SueFavor wrote: |
Why isn't the backlash against Zahui B. as big as that for Loyd?
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I think it is because Loyd was a bigger star (nationally) at a program that is more successful; regularly getting to the Final Four and is expected to be back next year. I don't think Minnesota was even expected to finish 2nd in the Big 10 next year.
And being more successful, the Notre Dame team has more fans and more attention on it.
I think that Zahui B. is a foreigner also factors in.
Last edited by tfan on 04/11/15 1:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tfan
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| Posted: 04/11/15 12:03 am ::: |
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| pwhite66 wrote: |
Look, I don't know what your problem is, but I don't appreciate your tone or the juvenile direction you've taken things. I don't even know why you're so agitated.
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If you don't want a ", fool" in a follow-up reply, I wouldn't give a "You're kidding, right?" in your reply. Even if your "You're kidding, right?" was said with the most benign facial expression and in the most benign tone of voice - the reader in print has neither to go by and even in a range of deliveries it still means - "your opinion is totally wrong, so totally wrong I am baffled as to why you would hold and express it". And since you are already going to disagree with the opinion in your following statements, adding "You're kidding right?" is ultimately just a version of ", fool" that adds more condescension in place of some hostility.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 04/11/15 8:08 am ::: |
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| FWIW, I think the backlash against Loyd is stronger because we were led to believe that this decision wasn't even in the cards, given how sure ND was that she was staying even up to the Elite Eight.
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pilight
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