| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
 Posted: 04/01/15 3:15 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
"Behind the times"?
That's interesting because scores are coming down and used to be higher. It's the lowest it's been since 1952 and is down a full ten ppg since the early 90s. Which would say that the current more defensively oriented lower scoring lower possesions game is the MODERN trend, not the "behind the times" one.
If Geno thinks he knows so much about it maybe he should try coaching in a game where the players are much taller, faster, quicker, stronger, with greater ball skills, and where he doesn't have an overwhelming talent advantage in all but one or two games every year.
BTW, he' s complaining about a men's game where he says "everybody misses six of every 10 shots they take." We just had a regional finals in the womens game where the winner shot 39% and the loser shot 32%. In the Ky-ND mens regional final the teams shot 53% and 46%.
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 4:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I'd be careful about small sample sizes in late-round tournament games.
That said, if you compare the men and the women on shooting percentage, here's what you see:
Women
Range: 54.3% (UConn) to 32.0% (Morgan State)
Bottom of top 50: 43.2% (DePaul)
Median: 39.8% (8 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 36.5% (Arizona)
Men
Range: 52.0% (Gonzaga) to 35.5% (San Jose State)
Bottom of top 50: 46.3% (Oregon)
Median: 43.4% (7 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 40.4% (Hartford)
So the men shoot somewhat better on the whole. That said, they score less, because the pace of the men's game definitely is slower.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 4:31 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
I'd be careful about small sample sizes in late-round tournament games.
That said, if you compare the men and the women on shooting percentage, here's what you see:
Women
Range: 54.3% (UConn) to 32.0% (Morgan State)
Bottom of top 50: 43.2% (DePaul)
Median: 39.8% (8 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 36.5% (Arizona)
Men
Range: 52.0% (Gonzaga) to 35.5% (San Jose State)
Bottom of top 50: 46.3% (Oregon)
Median: 43.4% (7 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 40.4% (Hartford)
So the men shoot somewhat better on the whole. That said, they score less, because the pace of the men's game definitely is slower. |
And that pace has been slowing. It's not "behind the times", it actually the modern trend.
I understand that the two games I pointed out aren't necessarily representative, but they weren't intended to be. They were simply an illustration that if he's trying to claim bad shooting is some problem unique to the men's game, he's way off base. Your numbers simply confirm that his complaint about the men's game that nobody wants to watch a game where "everybody misses six of every 10 shots they take" applies even more to the women than to the men. Something about "glass houses" comes to mind.
This is just a Geno "hey look at me" moment. His problem is that no coach in men's basketball gives a hoot what he says about the men's game and half the fans of MCBB don't even know who he is. He's just too used to the reporters in WCBB like Michelle Smith slobbering over his every word.
If he's commenting that the men's game should make some rule changes like a shorter shot clock or wider key to speed up the pace, he's a few years late and hardly original.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 4:44 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
"Behind the times"?
That's interesting because scores are coming down and used to be higher. It's the lowest it's been since 1952 and is down a full ten ppg since the early 90s. Which would say that the current more defensively oriented lower scoring lower possesions game is the MODERN trend, not the "behind the times" one. |
I am confused as to how regressing towards the early 1950's makes the game more modern.
What he's getting at is that the sets most teams run are less sophisticated than we're accustomed to seeing in other high level basketball. That's born of players leaving after one or two years, which keeps coaches from implementing anything too complex.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 5:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
"Behind the times"?
That's interesting because scores are coming down and used to be higher. It's the lowest it's been since 1952 and is down a full ten ppg since the early 90s. Which would say that the current more defensively oriented lower scoring lower possesions game is the MODERN trend, not the "behind the times" one. |
I am confused as to how regressing towards the early 1950's makes the game more modern.
What he's getting at is that the sets most teams run are less sophisticated than we're accustomed to seeing in other high level basketball. That's born of players leaving after one or two years, which keeps coaches from implementing anything too complex. |
"Less sophisticated sets"? Where do you get that idea?
Teams like UVA and Wisconsin and VCU are running more sophisticated defenses that reduce the number of opponent possessions. Those are modern defenses. Yep, they're boring. I certainly don't like watching UVA's "pack line" defense. But it is a modern defense, that takes advantage of modern rules, and reduces the opportunities for fast breaks and lengthens the opponent's time of possession. And, by the way, these defenses are very complex and take a great deal of coaching to implement. And I don't think UVA has had a flood of players leaving early.
And out of the more than three thousand or so players in Div I men's basketball, fewer than 50 leave early for the NBA, and some of those are juniors or even seniors with a year of remaining eligibility. To try to attribute trends in the sport as a whole to a tiny proportion of players leaving early from an even tinier share of schools is way off base.
Heck, the drop in scoring is even more pronounced in the NBA from the 118.8 ppg avg in 1962 to the 99.9 avg this year (it's actually up a little from the 93.4 in 2004). And your explanation for that drop is . . . ? Maybe players leaving early from the NBA to go . . . where? "Less sophisticated sets"?
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 5:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
"Behind the times"?
That's interesting because scores are coming down and used to be higher. It's the lowest it's been since 1952 and is down a full ten ppg since the early 90s. Which would say that the current more defensively oriented lower scoring lower possesions game is the MODERN trend, not the "behind the times" one. |
I am confused as to how regressing towards the early 1950's makes the game more modern.
What he's getting at is that the sets most teams run are less sophisticated than we're accustomed to seeing in other high level basketball. That's born of players leaving after one or two years, which keeps coaches from implementing anything too complex. |
"Less sophisticated sets"? Where do you get that idea?
Teams like UVA and Wisconsin and VCU are running more sophisticated defenses that reduce the number of opponent possessions. Those are modern defenses. Yep, they're boring. I certainly don't like watching UVA's "pack line" defense. But it is a modern defense, that takes advantage of modern rules, and reduces the opportunities for fast breaks and lengthens the opponent's time of possession. And, by the way, these defenses are very complex and take a great deal of coaching to implement. And I don't think UVA has had a flood of players leaving early.
And out of the more than three thousand or so players in Div I men's basketball, fewer than 50 leave early for the NBA, and some of those are juniors or even seniors with a year of remaining eligibility. To try to attribute trends in the sport as a whole to a tiny proportion of players leaving early from an even tinier share of schools is way off base.
Heck, the drop in scoring is even more pronounced in the NBA from the 118.8 ppg avg in 1962 to the 99.9 avg this year (it's actually up a little from the 93.4 in 2004). And your explanation for that drop is . . . ? Maybe players leaving early from the NBA to go . . . where? "Less sophisticated sets"? |
One change is the illegal defense rule, which allowed more sophisticated defenses. (Although that always reminds me of a story about Larry Bird coming up to an opponent before a game and saying "so how are you going to disguise your zone tonight?") Another is the increase in the use of isolation plays, which seem to be good for individual players but not so good for scoring.
|
|
pwhite66
Joined: 01 Dec 2010
Posts: 249
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 6:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
You're right; offenses and especially defenses are much more sophisticated. In fact, I'd argue they're too sophisticated. Thanks to several factors, among them the ability through modern technology to digest and break down incredible amounts of film on opponents; an explosion of long, 6-8 and above specimens with superior athleticism but comparatively low basketball fundamentals walking the earth and an overly generous ration of timeouts per contest, coaches often wind up micro-managing the life and flow out of the whole experience.
It works, though. Virginia was an ACC also-ran, at best, until Tony Bennett got his dull-but-effective system up and running. The Cavaliers have now won back-to-back ACC regular-season titles and spent most of last season in the AP Top 3. Bennett, meanwhile, beat out undefeated Kentucky coach John Calipari for national coach of the year. So while fans see a snooze-fest, rival programs likely see a template. Expect more Virginias to crop up, with varying degrees of success.
And I don't see the trend changing much any time soon. All but the most modest of rules changes would require coaches, most of whom are notorious control freaks, to relax their grip on some of the possessions. I don't expect them to do that willingly. And since the administrators are seeing a spike in revenue and the networks are getting strong ratings, I'm not sure either truly believes there's really much of a problem.
|
|
cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 6:35 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| there is no chance in hell AB is motivated by a distaste for the UConn coach.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
|
|
Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5223
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 6:47 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| What do you think would happen if you took the same comments and had a men's basketball coach saying this about the women's game? I think the reaction would be much worse.
|
|
cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 7:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
I'd be careful about small sample sizes in late-round tournament games.
That said, if you compare the men and the women on shooting percentage, here's what you see:
Women
Range: 54.3% (UConn) to 32.0% (Morgan State)
Bottom of top 50: 43.2% (DePaul)
Median: 39.8% (8 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 36.5% (Arizona)
Men
Range: 52.0% (Gonzaga) to 35.5% (San Jose State)
Bottom of top 50: 46.3% (Oregon)
Median: 43.4% (7 schools)
Top of bottom 50: 40.4% (Hartford)
So the men shoot somewhat better on the whole. That said, they score less, because the pace of the men's game definitely is slower. |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 7:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo. |
Baloney. The percentage completion should be just as high for layups, yet they're missed at an appalling rate.
Since Geno's so concerned about fan interest and low scoring in the men's game I wonder what he proposes to do to fix Houston's women's team scoring 12 pts in a half or Memphis scoring 24 for a game, speaking of boring. Maybe he should try to fix his own game before he mouths off about someone else's.
|
|
cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 7:36 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo. |
Baloney. The percentage completion should be just as high for layups, yet they're missed at an appalling rate.
Since Geno's so concerned about fan interest and low scoring in the men's game I wonder what he proposes to do to fix Houston's women's team scoring 12 pts in a half or Memphis scoring 24 for a game, speaking of boring. Maybe he should try to fix his own game before he mouths off about someone else's. |
I'd be surprised if many agreed.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 7:39 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo. |
Baloney. The percentage completion should be just as high for layups, yet they're missed at an appalling rate.
Since Geno's so concerned about fan interest and low scoring in the men's game I wonder what he proposes to do to fix Houston's women's team scoring 12 pts in a half or Memphis scoring 24 for a game, speaking of boring. Maybe he should try to fix his own game before he mouths off about someone else's. |
I'd be surprised if many agreed. |
The women don't have to worry about Willie Cauley-Stein and Karl-Anthony Towns defending the rim either.
|
|
cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 8:41 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo. |
Baloney. The percentage completion should be just as high for layups, yet they're missed at an appalling rate.
Since Geno's so concerned about fan interest and low scoring in the men's game I wonder what he proposes to do to fix Houston's women's team scoring 12 pts in a half or Memphis scoring 24 for a game, speaking of boring. Maybe he should try to fix his own game before he mouths off about someone else's. |
I'd be surprised if many agreed. |
The women don't have to worry about Willie Cauley-Stein and Karl-Anthony Towns defending the rim either. |
Dunks and layups aren't the same, imo.
I think defended dunks are easier to score for men than defended putbacks are for women, and I don't think most dunks are seriously defended.
Geno proposed lowering the rim a while back.
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
|
|
FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 9699
Location: Husky (west coast) Country
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/01/15 11:58 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I guess Geno might have the same thoughts about a lot of the women's teams he trounces, but he can't voice them--it would be seriously poor sportsmanship and get him in trouble, even if he was very general in his critique.
So his frustration builds up and when he has to vent, he picks another target, men's basketball, something which he can criticize without serious repercussions because he's not part of it.
_________________
@dtmears2
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 12:51 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I think this is in some small part Geno engaging in self-adulation -- his team's scoring is ahead of the times, you see -- but in majority part I think he's right.
Today's men's basketball is oriented toward clearing space for isolation plays and individual creation moves and is less sophisticated than the teamwork play of the 1950's and 1960's, mainly because the athletes are so much bigger and stronger. But I don't think today's shooters are any better and, stripping away dunks, the shooting may be worse.
However, I do think the defenses are much better than 50-60 years ago, again because of the greater average size and speed of the athletes, more so than any improvement in team defensive principles.
When defenses are very good and offenses are passing or dribbling around trying to set up isolation plays, rather than quick hitting with two- or three-man games or kicking out to great shooters on a secondary break, the possessions will tend to go down. Think of Big East Rutgers playing itself in WCBB in the first decade of this century. |
|
cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 6:00 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Here is the complete text of the teleconference in which Geno's comments were made.
I heard the "controversial" comments this morning via WTIC radio. As usual, the words are less "inflammatory" when heard in context.
http://www.asapsports.com/show_interview.php?id=108045
_________________
Silly, stupid white people might be waking up.
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 6:43 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| FS02 wrote: |
| I guess Geno might have the same thoughts about a lot of the women's teams he trounces, but he can't voice them--it would be seriously poor sportsmanship and get him in trouble, even if he was very general in his critique. |
He was on SVP & Russillo yesterday and said the women's game was even worse than the men's. That doesn't draw headlines, for some reason.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
Beemer
Joined: 19 Jul 2014
Posts: 483
Location: Connecticut
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 9:50 am ::: |
Reply |
|
[quote="pwhite66"]You're right; offenses and especially defenses are much more sophisticated. In fact, I'd argue they're too sophisticated. Thanks to several factors, among them the ability through modern technology to digest and break down incredible amounts of film on opponents; an explosion of long, 6-8 and above specimens with superior athleticism but comparatively low basketball fundamentals walking the earth and an overly generous ration of timeouts per contest, coaches often wind up micro-managing the life and flow out of the whole experience.
It works, though. Virginia was an ACC also-ran, at best, until Tony Bennett got his dull-but-effective system up and running. The Cavaliers have now won back-to-back ACC regular-season titles and spent most of last season in the AP Top 3. Bennett, meanwhile, beat out undefeated Kentucky coach John Calipari for national coach of the year. So while fans see a snooze-fest, rival programs likely see a template. Expect more Virginias to crop up, with varying degrees of success.
And I don't see the trend changing much any time soon. All but the most modest of rules changes would require coaches, most of whom are notorious control freaks, to relax their grip on some of the possessions. I don't expect them to do that willingly. And since the administrators are seeing a spike in revenue and the networks are getting strong ratings, I'm not sure either truly believes there's really much of a problem.[/quote]
The same thing has happened in hockey- the explosion in technology in particular has led coaches to micromanage their teams- there is precious little free lancing/creativity allowed to puck handlers. It is all about not making turnovers but pouncing on the other team's turnovers. It makes for a damn boring game at times.
I also agree with you about the lack of fundamentals in the men's game. It is all about the size, speed & athleticism of the players. Sure it can be spectacular to watch LeBron do his thing but most of the time the men's game is painful to watch- poor passing, traveling on every possession, everybody standing around waiting for the one of one matchup to either end in 2 points or a rebound. Gak.
_________________
Go Huskies! Go Sun!
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11149
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 10:22 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
Unless dunks are removed (even though dunk attempts occasionally are missed) the men's FG% is unfair for comparison purposes, imo. |
Baloney. The percentage completion should be just as high for layups, yet they're missed at an appalling rate.
Since Geno's so concerned about fan interest and low scoring in the men's game I wonder what he proposes to do to fix Houston's women's team scoring 12 pts in a half or Memphis scoring 24 for a game, speaking of boring. Maybe he should try to fix his own game before he mouths off about someone else's. |
A dunk is a much higher percentage shot than a layup.
And every layup is easier the closer the release point is to the rim -- and not only are male athletes six inches or so taller, putting them that much closer to the rim, they also jump higher, meaning they release the ball nine inches or so closer to the target. And in percentage terms, they are 50% closer to the target, or thereabouts, when the ball is released than women.
Layups are not automatic and not easy, especially with defenders.
When was the last time you played basketball (not just Art, but anyone on the board)? And how many layups have you missed in your life? If you could dunk, how many dunks did you miss in games?
The idea that players should never miss layups is simply wrong. The further you are from the target on any shot, the tougher it is, and a dunk is a lot closer release than a layup by a 5-7 guard who doesn't jump well.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 10:41 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I was in 9th grade during a scrimmage in practice when I slammed the ball off the backboard on an open layup. Coach stopped practice and said "what are you trying to do, break the backboard? Do that again and it will be the last time you ever step on the court for this team"
I certainly missed some layups, but I never bricked one like that again. Ever. I practiced layups.
Yet I see it happen all the time especially in women's games. Layups that don't just rim out, but completely miss the rim. Total bricks worthy of "are you trying to break the glass" comments. Yet strangely there are some players you can count on to consistently make their layups. Hmmm.
Don't try to excuse it. There is no defense. It's like 50% free throw shooters. if they don't practice fundamentals, their fundamentals will suck. If they don't practice basic layups, then they won't make layups.
I can't believe you're trying to explain this away with "well the women are only 5'8 and the men are 6'1 so they're closer to the basket."
BTW, when did the idea of having basic layups lines during game warmups go out of fashion?
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 11:46 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Thank goodness college men never miss layups....wait, that's not true. Well at least they make them at a greater percentage than the women....wait, that's not true either.
In any event, Geno wasn't comparing the men's game to the women's game. He said flat out that WCBB was even worse than the men's. He was comparing MCBB to watchable basketball and like every analyst out there he found it lacking.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 11:59 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| He said flat out that WCBB was even worse than the men's. |
Is that how you read this?
"College men's basketball is so far behind the times it's unbelievable. I mean women's basketball is behind the times. Men's basketball is even further behind the times."
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/02/15 12:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| He said flat out that WCBB was even worse than the men's. |
Is that how you read this?
"College men's basketball is so far behind the times it's unbelievable. I mean women's basketball is behind the times. Men's basketball is even further behind the times." |
He said it the other way around on SVP & Russillo
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
|
|
