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Oldfandepot2
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Oldfandepot2
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 Posted: 07/17/15 12:38 pm ::: |
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Interesting take on the Pam Am games from the Canadian perspective. As much as they and other teams want to win they are looking to the FIBA Championships in Edmonton later in August . It is there, not the PAM AM games that the qualifiers for the Olympics will be decided.
With that in mind some of the teams in anticipation of meeting again in Edmonton are holding back in Toronto. The USA by virtue of winning the last Olympic gold automatically qualifies for the 2016 Olympics.
http://t.thestar.com/#/article/news/gta/panamgames/2015/07/15/canadas-basketball-women-trying-to-win-without-showing-their-hand.html
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 12:43 pm ::: |
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I'm curious why on seemingly all of these teams USA Basketball womens teams shortchange themselves on point guards. If I was picking I'd have take the three best true point guards I could find.
They seem to end up having to play one pg the entire game.
Last night they tried to use Plum to spell Jefferson. Plum may be a great shooter, but she's not a great PG. Indeed, she promptly got trapped and turned the ball over.
Oh, and despite what Brooke Weisbrod in her infinite wisdom might believe, I don't think Jefferson and Stewart combining for 35 of the teams 65 shots is the optimum formula for success. A lot of those misses were simply rushed or forced or otherwise not good or smart shots. Jefferson often wasn't even looking for anyone else. There are a lot of people who can score on this roster if they get ball.
Good to see though that Weisbrod and Tiffany Greene have been working out and even though it's only July were already in full slobber mode. ESPN obviously didn't see fit to send the A team to Toronto.
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ArtBest23
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:04 pm ::: |
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I'm not sure I'm fully buying that. They may want people to believe they're holding a lot back, and they might usually hold a lot back in these circumstances, but it looks to me like Canada as the host of the games is going all out across the board. Indeed, they are leading in both gold medals and total medals at this point.
Not really trying? With the games being played in Toronto? Color me dubious.
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Oldfandepot2
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:11 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I'm not sure I'm fully buying that. They may want people to believe they're holding a lot back, and they might usually hold a lot back in these circumstances, but it looks to me like Canada as the host of the games is going all out across the board. Indeed, they are leading in both gold medals and total medals at this point.
Not really trying? With the games being played in Toronto? Color me dubious. |
I think if they meet the USA in the Finals and considering they will need not to worry playing the same USA in Edmonton since the US is an automatic qualifier, it will be no holds bar, pedal to the medal.
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PhillyCat
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:11 pm ::: |
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I didn't see a lot of players not named Jefferson or Stewart who wanted the ball last night, particularly in the lane. Coates and, to a lesser extent, Reimer weren't strong with the ball. I think they were put back on their heels by Brazil's physical play. I expect to see much better production from the post players going forward against teams that are not as physical or experienced as Brazil.
Jefferson has never taken 16 shots in a game in her college career and I'm sure she would prefer not to again.
Harper played well though perimeter shooting is not her strength. Walker-Kimbrough played well. Plum and Williams looked out of their depth, though Plum didn't look 100% healthy.
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Oldfandepot2
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:18 pm ::: |
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| PhillyCat wrote: |
I didn't see a lot of players not named Jefferson or Stewart who wanted the ball last night, particularly in the lane. Coates and, to a lesser extent, Reimer weren't strong with the ball. I think they were put back on their heels by Brazil's physical play. I expect to see much better production from the post players going forward against teams that are not as physical or experienced as Brazil.
Jefferson has never taken 16 shots in a game in her college career and I'm sure she would prefer not to again.
Harper played well though perimeter shooting is not her strength. Walker-Kimbrough played well. Plum and Williams looked out of their depth, though Plum didn't look 100% healthy. |
I thought that Shatori Walker-Kimbrough played well especially on offense and on the perimeter. I would be surprised not to see more scoring from Harper, Coates and Reimer now that they have gained experience in game one, especially since they played one of the most if not the most physical team they will see in the tournament.
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Oldfandepot2
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:25 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I'm curious why on seemingly all of these teams USA Basketball womens teams shortchange themselves on point guards. If I was picking I'd have take the three best true point guards I could find.
They seem to end up having to play one pg the entire game.
Last night they tried to use Plum to spell Jefferson. Plum may be a great shooter, but she's not a great PG. Indeed, she promptly got trapped and turned the ball over.
Oh, and despite what Brooke Weisbrod in her infinite wisdom might believe, I don't think Jefferson and Stewart combining for 35 of the teams 65 shots is the optimum formula for success. A lot of those misses were simply rushed or forced or otherwise not good or smart shots. Jefferson often wasn't even looking for anyone else. There are a lot of people who can score on this roster if they get ball.
Good to see though that Weisbrod and Tiffany Greene have been working out and even though it's only July were already in full slobber mode. ESPN obviously didn't see fit to send the A team to Toronto. |
I think going forward the number of shots that Jefferson and Stewart take will go down as Reimer Coates et al get their sea legs. It was tough going for the inexperience posts last night though they never backed down once. Look to see now that they have stood up to a very physical Brazil be more comfortable in the blocks and score more readily. They will get the ball.
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We must listen to each other no matter how much it hurts. Bishop Desmond Tutu.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:25 pm ::: |
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| Oldfandepot2 wrote: |
| PhillyCat wrote: |
I didn't see a lot of players not named Jefferson or Stewart who wanted the ball last night, particularly in the lane. Coates and, to a lesser extent, Reimer weren't strong with the ball. I think they were put back on their heels by Brazil's physical play. I expect to see much better production from the post players going forward against teams that are not as physical or experienced as Brazil.
Jefferson has never taken 16 shots in a game in her college career and I'm sure she would prefer not to again.
Harper played well though perimeter shooting is not her strength. Walker-Kimbrough played well. Plum and Williams looked out of their depth, though Plum didn't look 100% healthy. |
I thought that Shatori Walker-Kimbrough played well especially on offense and on the perimeter. I would be surprised not to see more scoring from Harper, Coates and Reimer now that they have gained experience in game one, especially since they played one of the most if not the most physical team they will see in the tournament. |
I agree. I thought Walker-Kimbrough was terrific. On this team she'd be starting at the 2 for me.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:35 pm ::: |
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| PhillyCat wrote: |
I didn't see a lot of players not named Jefferson or Stewart who wanted the ball last night, particularly in the lane. Coates and, to a lesser extent, Reimer weren't strong with the ball. I think they were put back on their heels by Brazil's physical play. I expect to see much better production from the post players going forward against teams that are not as physical or experienced as Brazil.
Jefferson has never taken 16 shots in a game in her college career and I'm sure she would prefer not to again.
Harper played well though perimeter shooting is not her strength. Walker-Kimbrough played well. Plum and Williams looked out of their depth, though Plum didn't look 100% healthy. |
I didn't see any reluctance. Maybe she knows that if she took some of those shots in front of Geno she'd spend the rest of the game on the bench.
People stop looking for the ball when they learn they're wasting their effort and aren't going to get it.
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:37 pm ::: |
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Reimer needs to be utilized at the high post, that's where she was consistent last year for ND. Coates on the other hand has no footwork or understanding of how to roll on the pick. At one point Jefferson set her up perfectly for an easy lay up and she didn't roll and then batted the ball off balance. You can see why both Jefferson and Stewart took so many shots as there were no other options, that simple.
As to the PG position, the problem is there are few true PGs. Harper played PG on one of the younger teams and was just a scorer. She was the most selfish offensively on this team, but she is too small at these older levels.
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PhillyCat
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:46 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| PhillyCat wrote: |
I didn't see a lot of players not named Jefferson or Stewart who wanted the ball last night, particularly in the lane. Coates and, to a lesser extent, Reimer weren't strong with the ball. I think they were put back on their heels by Brazil's physical play. I expect to see much better production from the post players going forward against teams that are not as physical or experienced as Brazil.
Jefferson has never taken 16 shots in a game in her college career and I'm sure she would prefer not to again.
Harper played well though perimeter shooting is not her strength. Walker-Kimbrough played well. Plum and Williams looked out of their depth, though Plum didn't look 100% healthy. |
I didn't see any reluctance. Maybe she knows that if she took some of those shots in front of Geno she'd spend the rest of the game on the bench.
People stop looking for the ball when they learn they're wasting their effort and aren't going to get it. |
No. You're wrong. She played with teammates at UConn who moved with a purpose on offense, wanted the ball and weren't afraid to shoot it. I didn't see that last night. Some players looked scared. The ball would have been delivered to Coates if she put herself in a position to score, showed her numbers and asked for the ball. She's 6-5 and had zero FGAs last night. That wasn't Jefferson's fault.
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ArtBest23
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ArtBest23
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PhillyCat
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:51 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
Reimer needs to be utilized at the high post, that's where she was consistent last year for ND. Coates on the other hand has no footwork or understanding of how to roll on the pick. At one point Jefferson set her up perfectly for an easy lay up and she didn't roll and then batted the ball off balance. You can see why both Jefferson and Stewart took so many shots as there were no other options, that simple.
As to the PG position, the problem is there are few true PGs. Harper played PG on one of the younger teams and was just a scorer. She was the most selfish offensively on this team, but she is too small at these older levels. |
I agree. I thought Reimer resorted to her old habit of putting the ball on the floor rather than going straight up with it which she did so effectively during the 2nd half of last season. She looked uncertain with the ball; putting her at the high post would likely make her more comfortable and confident with the ball.
I have no idea what the plan was for Coates on offense last night. She did rebound well.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:54 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
Reimer needs to be utilized at the high post, that's where she was consistent last year for ND. Coates on the other hand has no footwork or understanding of how to roll on the pick. At one point Jefferson set her up perfectly for an easy lay up and she didn't roll and then batted the ball off balance. You can see why both Jefferson and Stewart took so many shots as there were no other options, that simple.
As to the PG position, the problem is there are few true PGs. Harper played PG on one of the younger teams and was just a scorer. She was the most selfish offensively on this team, but she is too small at these older levels. |
It looked to me like the game plan was do exactly that with Reimer. She went to the high post nearly every possession. Just never got the ball. The one time the whole game they actually ran (effectively, by the way) the high post inlet pass was when Mavunga was in and lobbed it perfectly over the head of the defender to Stewart for the layup. Reimer was in position to do that all game, but if you don't pass the ball in to the high post, it can't get fed from the high post.
As for the PG position, we had this same discussion with respect to the WUG team about Gray, Brown and Jankoska being left home. Either one of these teams could have definitely used Gray, because of her skill and poise, and because of her size. She's a tall guard. Instead we brought all these 5'6" guards.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/17/15 1:57 pm ::: |
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| PhillyCat wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
Reimer needs to be utilized at the high post, that's where she was consistent last year for ND. Coates on the other hand has no footwork or understanding of how to roll on the pick. At one point Jefferson set her up perfectly for an easy lay up and she didn't roll and then batted the ball off balance. You can see why both Jefferson and Stewart took so many shots as there were no other options, that simple.
As to the PG position, the problem is there are few true PGs. Harper played PG on one of the younger teams and was just a scorer. She was the most selfish offensively on this team, but she is too small at these older levels. |
I agree. I thought Reimer resorted to her old habit of putting the ball on the floor rather than going straight up with it which she did so effectively during the 2nd half of last season. She looked uncertain with the ball; putting her at the high post would likely make her more comfortable and confident with the ball.
I have no idea what the plan was for Coates on offense last night. She did rebound well. |
Reimer had two turnovers. And if you watch, I think you'll find that on at least one of them the pass was ill-timed when she was in the middle of a bunch of traffic. There was nowhere for her to go with it.
She was at the high post repeatedly, looking for the ball, which never arrived.
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015
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| Posted: 07/17/15 3:50 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
I'm curious why on seemingly all of these teams USA Basketball womens teams shortchange themselves on point guards. If I was picking I'd have take the three best true point guards I could find.
They seem to end up having to play one pg the entire game.
Last night they tried to use Plum to spell Jefferson. Plum may be a great shooter, but she's not a great PG. Indeed, she promptly got trapped and turned the ball over.
Oh, and despite what Brooke Weisbrod in her infinite wisdom might believe, I don't think Jefferson and Stewart combining for 35 of the teams 65 shots is the optimum formula for success. A lot of those misses were simply rushed or forced or otherwise not good or smart shots. Jefferson often wasn't even looking for anyone else. There are a lot of people who can score on this roster if they get ball.
Good to see though that Weisbrod and Tiffany Greene have been working out and even though it's only July were already in full slobber mode. ESPN obviously didn't see fit to send the A team to Toronto. |
IMO it has to do with European/International style basketball. More emphasis - with ALL players - on passing the ball, dribbling and handling the ball, and better perimeter shooting. With the European girls (and guys) you see more emphasis on the outside and 3-pt shot, and therefore there always seem to be bigger players that can effectively hit the outside jumpshot. And always there are many that are great passers.
So with the European teams, you see mostly bigger, more physical players playing the guard positions than what we expect to see with USA teams.
Then there's the aspect of age difference: I think I heard the announcers for the PAG with Brazil last night say that the average age for the US team was something like 21, and the average age for the Brazil team was 35 (!!!). The European teams are always more mature and developed teams and play very physical against the US girls. That may prove a problem for all but a very select number of experienced college PGs that would be tasked with leading the US team against those opponents.
In the American collegiate game, the college players are valued more due to their short playing careers and roster limits, so the officiating is (usually) more strict with such physical play. With international rules BB, it's more wide-open because offenses are taught to be more wide-open, players are more mature and developed, and there's a much larger pool to pick from as alternates should a player get injured.
These things IMO are main reasons for why the US teams have so few PGs on them. They need bigger, more physical and hardy players to compete against the European teams. I imagine that had Tiffany Mitchell not been injured she would have been used often in the PG role. She may still return, so we'll see....
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Conway Gamecock
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| Posted: 07/17/15 3:58 pm ::: |
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| PhillyCat wrote: |
| Nixtreefan wrote: |
Reimer needs to be utilized at the high post, that's where she was consistent last year for ND. Coates on the other hand has no footwork or understanding of how to roll on the pick. At one point Jefferson set her up perfectly for an easy lay up and she didn't roll and then batted the ball off balance. You can see why both Jefferson and Stewart took so many shots as there were no other options, that simple.
As to the PG position, the problem is there are few true PGs. Harper played PG on one of the younger teams and was just a scorer. She was the most selfish offensively on this team, but she is too small at these older levels. |
I agree. I thought Reimer resorted to her old habit of putting the ball on the floor rather than going straight up with it which she did so effectively during the 2nd half of last season. She looked uncertain with the ball; putting her at the high post would likely make her more comfortable and confident with the ball.
I have no idea what the plan was for Coates on offense last night. She did rebound well. |
She wasn't recorded as having a single shot attempt for the 26+ minutes she was on the floor, although she did pull down 9 boards. I don't think they really had much of an offensive plan for her. Otherwise you'd think she'd have had at least a few chances to take some shots.
I thought I saw a few occasions where Coates stepped out to the FT line, which drew one of the post defenders away from the post towards her, and she lobbed some passes in to Stewart who got some easier layups. That seemed to work especially effectively IMO. I was hoping that Stewart might reciprocate to Coates since she is a well-known outside shooter and thus had she stepped out she would definitely bring her defender out to guard her, but I never saw any plays develop like that for Alaina...
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PhillyCat
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| Posted: 07/17/15 4:04 pm ::: |
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| The average age of the Brazilian team is just under 26 years, w/ 3 players in their 30s.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 07/17/15 4:09 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oh, and despite what Brooke Weisbrod in her infinite wisdom might believe, I don't think Jefferson and Stewart combining for 35 of the teams 65 shots is the optimum formula for success. A lot of those misses were simply rushed or forced or otherwise not good or smart shots. Jefferson often wasn't even looking for anyone else. There are a lot of people who can score on this roster if they get ball.
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Yeah, those UConn players are all known for being selfish ball hogs. LOL Incredible comment.
While I wholeheartedly agree that USA needs more than Stewart/Jefferson on offense, last night there wasn't a lot else, especially inside. Reimer may have asked for the ball but she did little with it when she did get it other than put it on the floor and draw a double team. Reimer needs to learn to get position to shoot before she gets the ball so she can go right to the basket. To her credit, she did make what I thought was the key basket at the end, the one that was really a clock shot violation. And she was definitely up against it playing Santos. .
BTW, Stewart/Jefferson shot 47% (42% 3 pt) while the rest of the team shot 37%. And the only poor shot that Jefferson took was when she thought the shot clock was going to expire.
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Conway Gamecock
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| Posted: 07/17/15 4:26 pm ::: |
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| PhillyCat wrote: |
| The average age of the Brazilian team is just under 26 years, w/ 3 players in their 30s. |
Well they must've said 25 then instead of 35. I was wondering about that....
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/17/15 5:21 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Oh, and despite what Brooke Weisbrod in her infinite wisdom might believe, I don't think Jefferson and Stewart combining for 35 of the teams 65 shots is the optimum formula for success. A lot of those misses were simply rushed or forced or otherwise not good or smart shots. Jefferson often wasn't even looking for anyone else. There are a lot of people who can score on this roster if they get ball.
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Yeah, those UConn players are all known for being selfish ball hogs. LOL Incredible comment.
While I wholeheartedly agree that USA needs more than Stewart/Jefferson on offense, last night there wasn't a lot else, especially inside. Reimer may have asked for the ball but she did little with it when she did get it other than put it on the floor and draw a double team. Reimer needs to learn to get position to shoot before she gets the ball so she can go right to the basket. To her credit, she did make what I thought was the key basket at the end, the one that was really a clock shot violation. And she was definitely up against it playing Santos. .
BTW, Stewart/Jefferson shot 47% (42% 3 pt) while the rest of the team shot 37%. And the only poor shot that Jefferson took was when she thought the shot clock was going to expire. |
I don't really care what they're "known as". As Philly pointed out, Jefferson has never taken 16 shots while playing for Geno so obviously what she does while playing for UConn had no bearing on what she did last night. Geno wasn't coaching. He wouldn't have tolerated some of those shots. She took more shots than she ever takes for UConn. She didn't play Geno ball. You call it whatever you want.
By the way, since you brought it up, there really wasn't any excuse for the point guard of all people to have no idea of the time on the shot clock after an extended break in play.
Note that Jefferson's stats were 16 shots, a whopping 3 assists, in 38 minutes. Is that the ratio of shots to assists you want from your PG? What would Geno say about that?
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linkster
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| Posted: 07/17/15 6:49 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Note that Jefferson's stats were 16 shots, a whopping 3 assists, in 38 minutes. Is that the ratio of shots to assists you want from your PG? What would Geno say about that? |
Yup. She played 38 minutes, had one turnover & scored 23 points on 16 shots, shooting 44% from the floor. She took a shot every 2:24 of play she was on the court. A real gunner.
Your green shamrocks are showing. LOL
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