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justinabina
Joined: 19 May 2014
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 Posted: 07/21/15 12:01 am ::: |
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Just got home from the game. I didn't think I'd care too much about who won, as I'm interested in players on both teams (and usually NOT interested in displays of nationalist pride), but it ended up being a lot of fun watching Canada get gold at home. Kia Nurse was great---the crowd was chanting MVP as she took her final free throws. Natalie Achonwa was awesome in the second half. She came across as a very steady, composed, confident player; a leader. Nirra Fields made some sweet moves to the basket that got everybody amped (also a few spectacular misses... but all in all, she played with lots of energy and drive). Miranda Ayim also played with good energy... The team as a whole did, especially in the second half. They played with gusto.
On the US side, Moriah Jefferson was by far the most compelling player to watch. I went to the game with some American friends of mine, and we were all crushed when she went down in the first half. Fortunately she proved to be a lot tougher than, uh, we were, and came back in pretty quickly. I was hoping to see Breanna Stewart in beast mode, but apart from a few nice moves and good rebounding, she didn't stand out as much as I thought she would. I guess that's what good defense does. Linnae Harper played with heart, and she did a good job making her free throws while the crowd was booing (unlike Stewart & Jefferson at one point)... I was hoping to see more out of Walker-Kimbrough and Coates, though. (Shatori looked so sad on the podium!  )
What I was really hoping for was a nailbiter that wouldn't be over until the final seconds, like yesterday's USA-Cuba match... But this was a very satisfying first experience watching women's basketball.
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ucdt3
Joined: 09 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 07/21/15 12:36 am ::: |
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| justinabina wrote: |
Just got home from the game. I didn't think I'd care too much about who won, as I'm interested in players on both teams (and usually NOT interested in displays of nationalist pride), but it ended up being a lot of fun watching Canada get gold at home. Kia Nurse was great---the crowd was chanting MVP as she took her final free throws. Natalie Achonwa was awesome in the second half. She came across as a very steady, composed, confident player; a leader. Nirra Fields made some sweet moves to the basket that got everybody amped (also a few spectacular misses... but all in all, she played with lots of energy and drive). Miranda Ayim also played with good energy... The team as a whole did, especially in the second half. They played with gusto.
On the US side, Moriah Jefferson was by far the most compelling player to watch. I went to the game with some American friends of mine, and we were all crushed when she went down in the first half. Fortunately she proved to be a lot tougher than, uh, we were, and came back in pretty quickly. I was hoping to see Breanna Stewart in beast mode, but apart from a few nice moves and good rebounding, she didn't stand out as much as I thought she would. I guess that's what good defense does. Linnae Harper played with heart, and she did a good job making her free throws while the crowd was booing (unlike Stewart & Jefferson at one point)... I was hoping to see more out of Walker-Kimbrough and Coates, though. (Shatori looked so sad on the podium! )
What I was really hoping for was a nailbiter that wouldn't be over until the final seconds, like yesterday's USA-Cuba match... But this was a very satisfying first experience watching women's basketball. |
Hard for Stewie to stand out when all night long Tatum was allowed to beat the crap out of her, push her over and literally wrap her arms around her on defense (off the ball) and prevent Stewie from moving around. And when she's triple and quadruple teamed in the post.
That said, USA's F squad (this was not our B squad by any means) almost beat Canada's SNT who placed 5th at World's on Canadian soil after being thrown together in a few weeks and while missing their 3rd best player all tournament long. I'd love to see who would have won this game if the USAB committee did a better job constructing it, the team had more time to practice, they had a better coach and they were given rest days in between games. 5 games in 5 days and except for day 2, Stewie and Mo averaged 35+ mpg while both twisting their ankles multiple times throughout the tournament. |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 07/21/15 8:39 am ::: |
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| i hope MJ takes the rest of the month off.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 07/21/15 10:34 am ::: |
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A couple thoughts:
1) Even Jefferson, presumably USA's quickest defender, could not stay in front of Nurse, who went right and left and made open threes. In fact, USA's biggest problem defensively was staying in front of the guards. To do that, they had to sag off, and then the Canadian guards made good passes to experienced post players; if they pressured the ball to prevent those inside looks, the Canadians went around them.
2) Canada's experience allowed them to play multiple defenses, often changing every time down the floor. A thrown-together team like USA will struggle trying to remember how to attack a 3-2 zone, then a 2-3, then a man, and do so in 24 seconds. A veteran team is much more flexible -- and credit to Canada's coaching staff for attacking this American weakness.
3) Kim Gaucher is Kim Smith's married name, and she's a 31-year-old with WNBA experience. She was just one of several veterans who used their knowledge to work over the inexperienced Americans. Experience doesn't mean a thing until you have it, but it's a very real advantage, especially over kids who've come from a system that values athleticism first and foremost.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 07/21/15 10:35 am ::: |
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Great win for Canada and they were clearly the better team. The whole playing our B team is sour grapes, it's like making excuses for any losses. If there are complaints you should have made them before like everyone else about what is going on at USA and there does seem to be some disconnect and too much D1 coaching influence and we can see how that bites you in the butt.
Canada won as they played TEAM basketball and TEAM defense. They had a really good game plan and it worked. Great job Canada.
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 07/21/15 10:43 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
A couple thoughts:
1) Even Jefferson, presumably USA's quickest defender, could not stay in front of Nurse, who went right and left and made open threes. In fact, USA's biggest problem defensively was staying in front of the guards. To do that, they had to sag off, and then the Canadian guards made good passes to experienced post players; if they pressured the ball to prevent those inside looks, the Canadians went around them.
2) Canada's experience allowed them to play multiple defenses, often changing every time down the floor. A thrown-together team like USA will struggle trying to remember how to attack a 3-2 zone, then a 2-3, then a man, and do so in 24 seconds. A veteran team is much more flexible -- and credit to Canada's coaching staff for attacking this American weakness.
3) Kim Gaucher is Kim Smith's married name, and she's a 31-year-old with WNBA experience. She was just one of several veterans who used their knowledge to work over the inexperienced Americans. Experience doesn't mean a thing until you have it, but it's a very real advantage, especially over kids who've come from a system that values athleticism first and foremost. |
I disagree on Nurse, every basket on her drives she came back to her right hand, she even tried to shoot with her right hand while driving left and was blocked. Jefferson was not strong enough to bump her and keep her from going back to her right and there was no help team defense.
But I do agree with their defensive plan and flexibility to mix things up which comes from being unselfish and the team goal being greater than the individual. That is where USA is struggling and you pointed out the value of athletes. Problem with that is these athletes don't seem smart enough to play the game. Their passing is non-existent and they can't even run a 2 on one fast break. They don't understand help D and quite frankly I don't think they care to buy into it. The fact that you see some of the players talking to each other and not listening to the coach during a time out shows the lack of TEAM. The same players do the same thing over and over - easy to scout for an experienced team.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/21/15 11:33 am ::: |
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There's been a lot of criticism in this thread about the USA's team offense.
Some noodling with stats over the five game tourney:
Stewart and Jefferson, the first and second high scorers, took 40% of the team's 315 shot attempts. Stewart shot 48% from the field and Jefferson shot 38%.
Coates and Walker-Kimbrough, the third and fourth high scorers, shot 66% and 58%, respectively.
Reimer played 24.4 mpg and shot 36% from the floor. Mavunga played 10.0 mpg and shot 76%.
The team had 68 assists and 90 turnovers. 48% of the made field goals were assisted.
Just looking at these numbers, I would interpret them as describing a team with poor offensive teamwork -- in particular, a lot of self-creation street ball, with perhaps the wrong players sometimes taking too many of the shots instead of passing for a higher percentage shot.
I only watched one of the games fully, Cuba, and it was reasonably consistent with that interpretation.
Canada's tourney team stats look better regarding teamwork. For example, the team had 81 assists and 82 turnovers and assisted on 57% of the made shots. The top two scorers, Nurse and Achonwa, took 21% of the team's 312 shot attempts. |
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dtbtbtb
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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| Posted: 07/21/15 12:12 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
There's been a lot of criticism in this thread about the USA's team offense.
Some noodling with stats over the five game tourney:
Stewart and Jefferson, the first and second high scorers, took 40% of the team's 315 shot attempts. Stewart shot 48% from the field and Jefferson shot 38%.
Coates and Walker-Kimbrough, the third and fourth high scorers, shot 66% and 58%, respectively.
Reimer played 24.4 mpg and shot 36% from the floor. Mavunga played 10.0 mpg and shot 76%.
The team had 68 assists and 90 turnovers. 48% of the made field goals were assisted.
Just looking at these numbers, I would interpret them as describing a team with poor offensive teamwork -- in particular, a lot of self-creation street ball, with perhaps the wrong players sometimes taking too many of the shots instead of passing for a higher percentage shot.
I only watched one of the games fully, Cuba, and it was reasonably consistent with that interpretation.
Canada's tourney team stats look better regarding teamwork. For example, the team had 81 assists and 82 turnovers and assisted on 57% of the made shots. The top two scorers, Nurse and Achonwa, took 21% of the team's 312 shot attempts. |
I saw all 5 games and it was clear that most of the players on the US team didn't know how to play team basketball. It is very possible that the reason for it was the short time together to practice but when the one thing that they tried to do (high low game with post to post passing) was taken away by opposing teams by aggressively pushing (and holding) the US posts put of the paint there was no plan B aside than one on one basketball with bad decisions.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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Nixtreefan
Joined: 14 Nov 2012
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| Posted: 07/21/15 6:57 pm ::: |
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Aww would it have been better if I had used the F team.
anywhooo Nurse played great. Canada played great and deserved the win.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 07/21/15 7:20 pm ::: |
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I watched the Canada game on replay.
In the first quarter, the USA was scoring against Canada's MTM defense and comfortably leading. Then Canada changed to a 2-3 zone, which completely befuddled the USA offense. By the early second half, as dtbx3 has said, the USA was just playing one-on-one, never looking to pass for a score. The worst offender was Harper, followed by Jefferson. The USA had a pitiful 5 assists and a horrid 18 turnovers.
It didn't help that Coates sat out a lot for quick fouls, and that Nurse played the best game I've ever seen from her. |
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linkster
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GlennMacGrady
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| Posted: 07/21/15 8:51 pm ::: |
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Nurse has the most unorthodox-but-effective drive move I've ever seen.
Extremely right handed, she bulls her way to the basket in traffic and literally throws her body laterally into the final defender. At the same time, she is holding the ball by her shoulder instead of extending, hooking or scooping with her shooting arm. As she makes body contact with the defender, she throws the ball up to the rim like a shot put.
When I first saw this move I thought it was a sort of awkward klutziness. However, having now watched her for a full season, I've come to appreciate the devastating effectiveness of her unorthodox technique. She frequently draws the shooting foul, and spins that shot put heave into the basket more often than one would imagine.
The best tactic for the defender might be to quickly back away from Nurse when she leaves her feet -- to avoid contact completely. This might cause Nurse to fall off balance, as she's leaning into a body no longer there, and miss the shot. And it would certainly avoid the foul. |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 07/21/15 9:47 pm ::: |
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| Never mind. Not worth it.
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awhom111
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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| Posted: 07/22/15 1:04 am ::: |
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If you thought people were criticizing Lisa, imagine how Rick Pitino felt with Puerto Rico trailing Brazil 60-17 at halftime in his international debut. Of course the Pan American Games are less important than the FIBA Americas Championship on the Men's side as well, but they are the defending gold medalists. Now he will be expected to summon all of his recruiting ability to bring in all of the young NBA talent for the real tournament, which I suspect is one of the reasons that they wanted to hire him.
On the men's side, the top three scorers for their first game were among the five pros that they have on the roster. I do wonder how things would be different if non-WNBA pros were allowed to try out on the women's side. Honestly the end of the bench that we did bring will likely be happy with a solid overseas career and borderline WNBA potential that the pros would have. It seems unfair to restrict player tryouts when the tournament itself has no restrictions.
ESPN apparently managed to get announcers on site for the men's tournament. Professionals that they are, I think Shulman and Fraschilla could have been trusted to call women's games and done enough research to sound credible. The world feed announcers that ESPN3 had did not really seem to have too much knowledge about the players. Of course, the gold medal game might have caused the usually soundly objective Shulman to get a little excited and homerish.
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Nixtreefan
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| Posted: 07/22/15 11:12 am ::: |
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| Glenn I agree she is like a running back and once she decides she is off. Good idea about giving her no contact to work with. Also have someone ready to take a charge as she won't be stopping and you know where she is going.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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cthskzfn
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 07/22/15 12:40 pm ::: |
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| awhom111 wrote: |
ESPN apparently managed to get announcers on site for the men's tournament. Professionals that they are, I think Shulman and Fraschilla could have been trusted to call women's games and done enough research to sound credible. The world feed announcers that ESPN3 had did not really seem to have too much knowledge about the players. Of course, the gold medal game might have caused the usually soundly objective Shulman to get a little excited and homerish. |
They had "real" announcers for the Pan Am women's games. They were all televised on the Pan Am games coverage on ESPN2 or ESPNU. All except one, I believe, in full. In that one, they left for most of the 4th quarter with the US well out in front to show a US volleyball game, IIRC. I don't know why they didn't use that feed on ESPN3, but considering they had Tiffany Greene and Brooke Weisbrod, you were probably better off with the international announcers. Weisbrod was horrid, and basically the two of them spent half the time blathering about UConn, Stewart and Jefferson, and half the time sort of calling the game. Multiple possessions frequently went by without them saying one word about what was going on on the floor. You would have thought it was an SNY telecast, but it was actually worse. Shulman and Fraschilla would certainly have been better by several light years.
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Nixtreefan
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 07/22/15 2:23 pm ::: |
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| Nixtreefan wrote: |
| Glenn I agree she is like a running back and once she decides she is off. Good idea about giving her no contact to work with. Also have someone ready to take a charge as she won't be stopping and you know where she is going. |
She got quite a few charging calls in her first year at UConn. Never seems to stop her from making hard drives. Last season it occurred to me that she would fit in even better at Notre Dame where they emphasise drives down the lane by guards.
A lot of her success is due to to her being 6' and having upper body strength. Put her up against the "newspaper 5'10" opposing guards in college and she looks like a behemoth. And unlike many college guards she actually makes most of her layups. With Nurse, it's not that she is the fastest or can jump the furthest or has a killer crossover. Her strength is that she she plays aggressively and executes, as opposed to a flashy dribbler who uses an unbelievable spin move to get to the basket and then misses the shot.
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Conway Gamecock
Joined: 23 Jan 2015
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| Posted: 07/22/15 5:45 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
There's been a lot of criticism in this thread about the USA's team offense.
Some noodling with stats over the five game tourney:
Stewart and Jefferson, the first and second high scorers, took 40% of the team's 315 shot attempts. Stewart shot 48% from the field and Jefferson shot 38%.
Coates and Walker-Kimbrough, the third and fourth high scorers, shot 66% and 58%, respectively.
Reimer played 24.4 mpg and shot 36% from the floor. Mavunga played 10.0 mpg and shot 76%.
The team had 68 assists and 90 turnovers. 48% of the made field goals were assisted.
Just looking at these numbers, I would interpret them as describing a team with poor offensive teamwork -- in particular, a lot of self-creation street ball, with perhaps the wrong players sometimes taking too many of the shots instead of passing for a higher percentage shot.
I only watched one of the games fully, Cuba, and it was reasonably consistent with that interpretation.
Canada's tourney team stats look better regarding teamwork. For example, the team had 81 assists and 82 turnovers and assisted on 57% of the made shots. The top two scorers, Nurse and Achonwa, took 21% of the team's 312 shot attempts. |
Additionally, in the tournament opener versus Brazil, both Coates and Mavunga got 0 - ZERO - shot attempts as that game was all about a 2-man show. In the 4 games since, Coates and Mavunga combined to average 20.0 pts per game, and averaged 70% FG shooting. Coates led the US team in rebounding with 10.0 rpg.
Reimer really struggled all tournament long, and Coates did have a bad game in the final getting into foul trouble early which wrecked her chances of a solid game, but I don't understand why the posts weren't used more or why they didn't draw up more plays to incorporate either Coates or Mavunga, which would ease the defense down on the perimeter players like Stewart and Jefferson to take better perimeter shots. All Jefferson mostly did was bring the ball down the court, hand it off to Stewart who was at the top of the key, who then would either play ISO herself, occasionally pass into the post, or hand it back to Jefferson when she was stymied, and then become a big-body screen for Jefferson to shoot at the top of the key.
It was mostly just 2x2 basketball between Stewart and Jefferson. They did get some things working with Coates in the middle games with the in-out post play, but I don't know why they didn't use that more, as it was very effective and opponents didn't really prove they could counter it when the USA actually relied on it to full extent....
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AllOnePlanet
Joined: 20 Jul 2015
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| Posted: 07/22/15 8:32 pm ::: |
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| Where was Courtney Williams in the final games?
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 07/22/15 8:43 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| awhom111 wrote: |
ESPN apparently managed to get announcers on site for the men's tournament. Professionals that they are, I think Shulman and Fraschilla could have been trusted to call women's games and done enough research to sound credible. The world feed announcers that ESPN3 had did not really seem to have too much knowledge about the players. Of course, the gold medal game might have caused the usually soundly objective Shulman to get a little excited and homerish. |
They had "real" announcers for the Pan Am women's games. They were all televised on the Pan Am games coverage on ESPN2 or ESPNU. All except one, I believe, in full. In that one, they left for most of the 4th quarter with the US well out in front to show a US volleyball game, IIRC. I don't know why they didn't use that feed on ESPN3, but considering they had Tiffany Greene and Brooke Weisbrod, you were probably better off with the international announcers. Weisbrod was horrid, and basically the two of them spent half the time blathering about UConn, Stewart and Jefferson, and half the time sort of calling the game. Multiple possessions frequently went by without them saying one word about what was going on on the floor. You would have thought it was an SNY telecast, but it was actually worse. Shulman and Fraschilla would certainly have been better by several light years. |
Don't tell me you really watch those hideous AAC blowouts on SNY!!!!
Hey btw- I'm back w/ DirecTV 
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awhom111
Joined: 19 Nov 2014
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| Posted: 07/23/15 12:47 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| awhom111 wrote: |
ESPN apparently managed to get announcers on site for the men's tournament. Professionals that they are, I think Shulman and Fraschilla could have been trusted to call women's games and done enough research to sound credible. The world feed announcers that ESPN3 had did not really seem to have too much knowledge about the players. Of course, the gold medal game might have caused the usually soundly objective Shulman to get a little excited and homerish. |
They had "real" announcers for the Pan Am women's games. They were all televised on the Pan Am games coverage on ESPN2 or ESPNU. All except one, I believe, in full. In that one, they left for most of the 4th quarter with the US well out in front to show a US volleyball game, IIRC. I don't know why they didn't use that feed on ESPN3, but considering they had Tiffany Greene and Brooke Weisbrod, you were probably better off with the international announcers. Weisbrod was horrid, and basically the two of them spent half the time blathering about UConn, Stewart and Jefferson, and half the time sort of calling the game. Multiple possessions frequently went by without them saying one word about what was going on on the floor. You would have thought it was an SNY telecast, but it was actually worse. Shulman and Fraschilla would certainly have been better by several light years. |
Greene and Weisbrod were calling the games off monitors in Bristol, right? That will always make for a different broadcast than being in the arena, like Shulman and Fraschilla. Fran admitted that he actually went to the Canada-USA game, which makes me feel worse about the announcing we did have. Shulman did manage to contain his glee when talking about the result of that game.
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