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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
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 Posted: 03/19/15 4:30 pm ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| Cut the number of tournament teams to 48 or 32. |
32 teams would mean no at-large bids. That's never going to happen. |
O.k....48 it is.As long as we don't have to watch 40-70 point 1st rd blowouts. |
Instead we'd probably get a bunch of 25-40 point blowouts, typically twice on the same court in a span of a couple of days. If you gave the top 4 seeds in the tournament 1st round byes, then in round one you'd get something like Texas v. St. Francis, Oklahoma v. Montana, Mississippi State v. New Mexico State and Ohio State v. Savannah State. Those don't really like much better games than the current 1-16 games, and we'd get them twice in your 2 of 3 scenario.
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FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 9699
Location: Husky (west coast) Country
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| Posted: 03/19/15 4:39 pm ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| FS02 wrote: |
| blaase22 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
If you want more fans to watch, the level of talent must be expanded. And more teams need to get deeper into the tournament.
There have been 24 FF slots in the last 6 years. 15 of them filled by 3 teams, UConn, Stanford & Notre Dame. 6 teams fill the other 9 slots with Louisville, Okl and Baylor each having 2 appearances.
It's been a real small club over these years. Six teams filling 88% of the slots.
People will get interested when their teams have some hope. |
That's a problem in all womens sports. Seems like it's always the same schools every year in softball, volleyball and basketball, in the final four, world series, etc, etc.
Then again it's the same for football  |
Pretty much all college sports are that way except men's basketball. |
Is men's basketball really that far out from the rest of the sports, though? Seems like there are programs that are dominant, and then a sprinkling of others who show up from time to time, depending on coaching, who left early for the NBA, health, etc. Didn't someone show that statistically it was a myth that the men's game was so much more diverse, or am I misremembering? |
There are fewer repeat champions--obviously because of players leaving early--I guess that is the main difference.
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dtrain34
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
Posts: 409
Location: Lacey, Washington
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| Posted: 03/19/15 7:36 pm ::: |
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OK, let me throw a couple of qualifiers out there before making a point blank statement some will decry and despise:
1. I have coached girls high school basketball and, as a college AD, stepped in to coach college women on an emergency basis.
2. My daughter is playing in this season's NCAA D1 tournament, which is a huge thrill for her and our family.
Bottom line on this topic though:
To grow the women's tournament? ....adjust the mindset of 300,000,000 Americans, male and female, most of whom don't buy the "pure-game-below-the-rim-John-Wooden-loved-women's-basketball" perspective and genuinely would rather watch CIT men dunking on some backwater cable outlet than a UConn-Stanford women's matchup.
We are simply generations away from women's sports being equal in the minds of American fans. Yes, girls now grow up playing sports, logically a natural fan base should have been built by now. But the same could be said of soccer -- 40-plus years of kids soccer being as common as Little League hasn't brought MLS level with MLB.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/19/15 7:41 pm ::: |
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| Youth Coach wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
i think the move to fri-mon was dumb.
Before employing all this crap Brennan and Frese support, how about giving the women's tournament the same amount of TV coverage as the men's?
Equal time is what I want.
And stop trying to sell WCB to MCB fans! |
Equal time for the women's tournament? That is NEVER going to happen. Can you really see four networks broadcasting women's basketball like they do for the men's tournament?
The ratings have to be there and they wouldn't be.
I love women's hoops as much as the next guy but let's be realistic here, you will never see the women's tournament be on the same level of coverage, anticipation and all out, dare I say, Madness as the men's tourney. |
espn has espn, 2, 3, news, classic.
Slaves were freed. Women allowed to vote. UConn men beat Duke for the NC. Biracial POTUS....
Yes, I believe equal coverage is possible. 
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 03/19/15 9:32 pm ::: |
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| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming.
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
Posts: 1055
Location: PA
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| Posted: 03/20/15 2:44 am ::: |
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| blaase22 wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
If you want more fans to watch, the level of talent must be expanded. And more teams need to get deeper into the tournament.
There have been 24 FF slots in the last 6 years. 15 of them filled by 3 teams, UConn, Stanford & Notre Dame. 6 teams fill the other 9 slots with Louisville, Okl and Baylor each having 2 appearances.
It's been a real small club over these years. Six teams filling 88% of the slots.
People will get interested when their teams have some hope. |
That's a problem in all womens sports. Seems like it's always the same schools every year in softball, volleyball and basketball, in the final four, world series, etc, etc.
Then again it's the same for football |
Well, Volleyball might be changing a little bit, with the addition of another team. ND hired a coach with experience in winning NCs... 
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/20/15 6:06 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday."
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 03/20/15 7:30 am ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 03/20/15 11:18 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks. |
Actually, you're understating it.
For the men's tournament, every game is on a one of the four tv networks AND every game is also streamed online.
And while we know better, ESPN does in fact pretend that ESPN3 is just another one of its networks.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/20/15 6:39 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks. |
1-espn
2-espn2
3-espnnews
4-espn classic
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
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| Posted: 03/20/15 10:14 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
The NCAA Tournament is approximately 3 weeks long, including rest days, so that's more than just cutting out a weekend or a game or two, and she says in her article. That is about 6 games, with each conference playing 2 games each week and that is not taking into consideration having to redo the conference and non-conference schedules with conferences having to start before Christmas and maybe even the first week of December which would coincide with finals for almost every school, and a lot of schools like to take finals week off.
And then to have the national championship scheduled for right after the men's selection show would be the worst thing that can be done.
And lastly, putting the women's final four against conference tournaments doesn't sound like a very good idea either, as I'm sure ESPN would rather show almost all men's conference tournaments, like they do now, than showing the Women's Final Four. |
Moving it earlier doesn't get a free window unless you start the season in early October and run the Women's tournament in February, which not only would be silly, it would mean well over half the season would be during football season before most of the general audience turns its attention to basketball.
If you move it back a month until after the men are done, the problem is that most people think the CBB season is over when the men's tournament ends, baseball season will have started, and a lot of basketball fans will have turned their attention to the NBA playoffs.
There is no "empty window" of time. There's always something else to draw people's attention.
And personally I'm of the view that playing in the summer will always make the WNBA a niche product. If you want to be taken seriously you play basketball during basketball season. I'd much prefer the WNBA play as during the winter and simply be an alternative. (Although I suspect the WNBA's primary scheduling issue isn't about attracting fans, it's about getting players for cheap during the International off season. If they played during the basketball season they'd have to pay competitive salaries to get players to play here in the US instead of Europe, China, etc.) |
If I am understanding the writer correctly, she wasn't suggesting starting the season earlier, she suggested cutting down the amount of games, starting it the same time, but ending it earlier. In her article she said the NCAA would only have to cut out a weekend and teams would only be cutting out a couple of games, but as I pointed out, it's more than just 1 weekend and a couple of games that would be cut out.
It would either be significantly decreasing the amount of non-conference games, or cutting down significantly the amount of conference games played. And of course that doesn't take into consideration conference tournaments.
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scfastpitch
Joined: 21 Dec 2009
Posts: 616
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| Posted: 03/21/15 7:00 am ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks. |
1-espn
2-espn2
3-espnnews
4-espn classic |
5- ESPNU
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Davis4632
Joined: 14 Jul 2014
Posts: 861
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| Posted: 03/21/15 7:51 am ::: |
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| I wonder if ESPN would've gotten the rights to the men's tournament instead of CBS/TBS/TNT/truTV, would they have still kept the rights to the women's tournament?
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terpsforever
Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 1233
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| Posted: 03/21/15 7:56 am ::: |
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| CourtsideTix wrote: |
The WNBA plays at a time when it does not compete with men's professional basketball, yet remains a little niche sport that keeps trying, unsuccessfully, to market itself to fans of the men's game. They are different products. In this day and age, it's not like people don't know about the other product, it's just that most of them are not terribly interested in it.
Just because I like mint chocolate chip ice cream doesn't mean I like butter pecan ice cream. I know the latter exists, I'm just not interested in it, even though they are both ice cream, and I'm not going to be eating it on days when the store happens to be out of mint chocolate chip. |
Exactly!
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8183
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| Posted: 03/21/15 8:00 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| zune69 wrote: |
| Cut the number of tournament teams to 48 or 32. |
32 teams would mean no at-large bids. That's never going to happen. |
O.k....48 it is.As long as we don't have to watch 40-70 point 1st rd blowouts. |
Instead we'd probably get a bunch of 25-40 point blowouts, typically twice on the same court in a span of a couple of days. If you gave the top 4 seeds in the tournament 1st round byes, then in round one you'd get something like Texas v. St. Francis, Oklahoma v. Montana, Mississippi State v. New Mexico State and Ohio State v. Savannah State. Those don't really like much better games than the current 1-16 games, and we'd get them twice in your 2 of 3 scenario. |
I disagree...just look at the scores from fridays 1st rd games
11 gonzaga beat 6 GW by 13 pts
11 miami beat 6 washington by 6 pts
7 dayton beat 10 iowa st by 12
5 texas beat 12 w.kentucky by only 2 pts
5 miss st beat 12 tulane by 10 pts
10 arkansas beat 7 northwestern by 2 pts
8 syracuse beat 9 nebraske by 3 pts
9 depaul beat 8 minnesota by 7 pts
8 games between the 5-12 seeds,with the lower seed winning 4 of the 8 games and a avg pt diff of 7.9 pts.
Then take a look at the 1 & 2 seeds:
notre dame 34 pt win
Baylor 41 pt win
Kentucky 45 pt win
S.C. 33 pt win
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/21/15 9:07 am ::: |
Reply |
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| scfastpitch wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks. |
1-espn
2-espn2
3-espnnews
4-espn classic |
5- ESPNU |
LMAO. I forgot the network "dedicated" to college.
5 plus the stream.
I think they're capable. They just need the will.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 03/21/15 10:00 am ::: |
Reply |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
Instead we'd probably get a bunch of 25-40 point blowouts, typically twice on the same court in a span of a couple of days. If you gave the top 4 seeds in the tournament 1st round byes, then in round one you'd get something like Texas v. St. Francis, Oklahoma v. Montana, Mississippi State v. New Mexico State and Ohio State v. Savannah State. Those don't really like much better games than the current 1-16 games, and we'd get them twice in your 2 of 3 scenario. |
I disagree...just look at the scores from fridays 1st rd games
11 gonzaga beat 6 GW by 13 pts
11 miami beat 6 washington by 6 pts
7 dayton beat 10 iowa st by 12
5 texas beat 12 w.kentucky by only 2 pts
5 miss st beat 12 tulane by 10 pts
10 arkansas beat 7 northwestern by 2 pts
8 syracuse beat 9 nebraske by 3 pts
9 depaul beat 8 minnesota by 7 pts
8 games between the 5-12 seeds,with the lower seed winning 4 of the 8 games and a avg pt diff of 7.9 pts.
Then take a look at the 1 & 2 seeds:
notre dame 34 pt win
Baylor 41 pt win
Kentucky 45 pt win
S.C. 33 pt win |
I don't think that addresses my point. The gap between the 5s and 6s and the 15s and 16s is much, much bigger than the gap between the 5s and 6s and the 11s and 12s.
Just for instance, NW State played 3 tournament teams this year - 10 seed Arkansas beat them 78-30; 6 seed TAMU beat them 75-42; 5 seed Texas beat them 74-34.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11149
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| Posted: 03/21/15 11:00 am ::: |
Reply |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| scfastpitch wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
| ESPN3 isn't a network, it's streaming. |
"....and from other breaking news, Friday follows Thursday." |
I've seen a couple of counts in this thread including it as a fourth network to parallel the CBS/TNT/TBS/truTV coverage. But three networks and one online-only stream do not equal four networks. |
1-espn
2-espn2
3-espnnews
4-espn classic |
5- ESPNU |
LMAO. I forgot the network "dedicated" to college.
5 plus the stream.
I think they're capable. They just need the will. |
They just need the viewers.
And notice that the stands are pretty much empty when the home team isn't playing.
What it comes down is sadly simple: Not that many people are interested enough in women's basketball to buy tickets or watch games on TV.
ESPN has no more obligation to show every women's game than it does to show the national badminton championship (which it would show if enough people were interested).
Calling out ESPN is like blaming the weatherman when the rain doesn't fall.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 03/21/15 11:09 am ::: |
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| As was pointed out, lower levels, which is what is shown on TV, are reserved for teams...and I guess a few rich boosters. We peons get to sit on the upper levels. There are more of us than you think! I went to first round games more than a few times when I lived in Tennessee. They were well attended by pretty knowledgeable folks. Of course half of TBA had to be curtained off because it's so cavernous.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
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| Posted: 03/21/15 12:41 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
I don't think that addresses my point. The gap between the 5s and 6s and the 15s and 16s is much, much bigger than the gap between the 5s and 6s and the 11s and 12s.
Just for instance, NW State played 3 tournament teams this year - 10 seed Arkansas beat them 78-30; 6 seed TAMU beat them 75-42; 5 seed Texas beat them 74-34. |
I don't think it's fair to post a regular season score without pointing out the circumstances of the schedule.For example,NW State 40 pt loss to Texas was the final game of a 3 game road trip,while Texas was playing the 5th game of a 9 game home stand.Tired team at the end of a road trip versus well rested team at home.
And under my new playoff scenario,NW state a 15 seed ,would not even make the tournament.The 1st rd matchups would be:
#5 vs #12
#6 vs #11
#7 vs #10
#8 vs #9
As I've already mentioned in my previous post.all games between the 5 through 12 seeds (17 -48 ranked teams)on Friday were competitive games.There were no blowouts.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 03/21/15 4:44 pm ::: |
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| zune69 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
I don't think that addresses my point. The gap between the 5s and 6s and the 15s and 16s is much, much bigger than the gap between the 5s and 6s and the 11s and 12s.
Just for instance, NW State played 3 tournament teams this year - 10 seed Arkansas beat them 78-30; 6 seed TAMU beat them 75-42; 5 seed Texas beat them 74-34. |
I don't think it's fair to post a regular season score without pointing out the circumstances of the schedule.For example,NW State 40 pt loss to Texas was the final game of a 3 game road trip,while Texas was playing the 5th game of a 9 game home stand.Tired team at the end of a road trip versus well rested team at home.
And under my new playoff scenario,NW state a 15 seed ,would not even make the tournament.The 1st rd matchups would be:
#5 vs #12
#6 vs #11
#7 vs #10
#8 vs #9
As I've already mentioned in my previous post.all games between the 5 through 12 seeds (17 -48 ranked teams)on Friday were competitive games.There were no blowouts. |
Sorry, that's not what you proposed - you said 48 and keep the auto bids. All of the 13-16 seeds are auto bids.
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Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 4760
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| Posted: 03/21/15 5:03 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
If Disney/Hearst wanted to, they would show every game of the NCAA D-1 WCB tournament. |
Why would they want to show something that will not draw big enough ratings to make the investment pay off?
It's not a lack of will, it's a basic understanding of the television ratings charts. |
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/21/15 5:22 pm ::: |
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| Youth Coach wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
If Disney/Hearst wanted to, they would show every game of the NCAA D-1 WCB tournament. |
Why would they want to show something that will not draw big enough ratings to make the investment pay off?
It's not a lack of will, it's a basic understanding of the television ratings charts. |
why wouldn't it "pay off"?
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zune69
Joined: 27 May 2010
Posts: 8183
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| Posted: 03/21/15 5:24 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
Sorry, that's not what you proposed - you said 48 and keep the auto bids. All of the 13-16 seeds are auto bids. |
And again,those auto bids would not have to play against a top 4 seed in the first RD,which would mean a more competitive 1st RD of basketball games.
Or.....maybe they should make a rule that conference champions only get an automatic bid if they have one of the top 64 RPI's or 3 wins against the teams with the 64 best RPI's.
Last edited by zune69 on 03/21/15 7:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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