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Two girls' HS basketball teams booted from postseason play
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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/23/15 11:30 pm    ::: Two girls' HS basketball teams booted from postseason play Reply Reply with quote

Well, here's another couple of wonderful coaches spoiling the game for their players. The *programs* will be on probation with the TSSAA next year. I note that one of the coaches is getting a slap on the wrist. Whoopee.

http://www.wbir.com/story/sports/preps/2015/02/23/riverdale-smyrna-girls-basketball-booted-from-postseason/23890321/



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Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 1:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

A couple of weeks ago two boys teams in Indiana were booted for the rest of the year, including the state tourney, for fighting. They have appealed and are awaiting the final ruling.

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/indiana-high-school-athletic-association-cancels-remainder-of-season-for-brawling-teams-hammond-griffith


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 1:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Came across this article when I was looking for the IN situation.

It's about the TN situation.

http://usatodayhss.com/2015/two-schools-tossed-from-tennessee-postseason-for-playing-to-lose-to-avoid-tougher-opponent


dtrain34



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 2:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This was suggested to Timberline (Washington) in 2011 when a win over Wilson in the District third place game was gauranteed to put the #5 Blazers into a "Group of Death" at State Regionals that would include #1 Holy Names and #2 Kennedy -- the only team to beat them all season.

They fought hard to beat Wilson and wound up losing in the WIAA's convoluted double elimination "Terrific 12" (abandoned after than one season) to Kennedy in State. The reaction of most affiliated with Timberline when one of the other District coaches suggested it was 1) it's wrong and 2) you could never get any kind of competitive player to go along with it. This story proves us mistaken as to the second point. Sadly.

The WIAA has instituted some sort of blind draw for some of the seeds since to eliminate any incentive to tank.


Youth Coach



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 6:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Playing to lose?

They should be booted from playoffs and coaches fired/banned from coaching ever again.

Period.
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 02/24/15 9:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

First of all, it's only a game. So if the coaches and players want to lose the game, why should it become a "moral" or "legal" issue to bureaucrats or the completely uninvolved public such as us?

Secondly, it was a calculated decision to lose one non-elimination game in pursuit of a greater goal: winning the tournament. Chess players often "sacrifice" a piece in the hope gaining a strategic advantage that will show up later in the match. The correct analog to chess match is the basketball tournament not some individual game.

Tempest in a teapot by teapot bureaucrats and sideline kibitzers.
Matt5762



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 9:56 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

So, wait, if you strategically tank in the WNBA, you get to draft Brittney Griner, but if you strategically tank in HS, you get banned? Can you blame high school students for being confused?

Were they just too obvious about it for everyone's liking? Maybe they should have just scheduled their starters to have their wisdom teeth removed that day instead?

The bigger problem here IMO is with the TSSAA's playoff structure and the everyone-makes-the-playoffs agenda that results in consolation games having any impact on the post season.

I think there are many lessons to be learned here and the message the TSSAA is sending to these student athletes is quite poor. Not that I would expect anything else from a HS athletic association.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 11:07 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
First of all, it's only a game. So if the coaches and players want to lose the game, why should it become a "moral" or "legal" issue to bureaucrats or the completely uninvolved public such as us?

Secondly, it was a calculated decision to lose one non-elimination game in pursuit of a greater goal: winning the tournament. Chess players often "sacrifice" a piece in the hope gaining a strategic advantage that will show up later in the match. The correct analog to chess match is the basketball tournament not some individual game.

Tempest in a teapot by teapot bureaucrats and sideline kibitzers.


Really, Glenn? REALLY? This is the kind of message you want to send to kids? That it's okay to play to lose?

No. Just....no. And remind me again why I don't want you advising me on my hypothetical kids or team.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 11:28 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Like Matt said...you see it all the time in pro sports. Hell, the Philadelphia 76ers are trying so hard to tank they have traded the majority of their good players for draft picks. Now they may have 17 or so draft picks in the next couple of years.

Unfortunately, tanking has become popular.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 11:40 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

That's pro sports. You sort of expect it from them. You at least TRY to teach kids better. Unfortunately adults ruin sports for kids a lot of the time.



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GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 12:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

STB, are you incapable of understanding the tournament strategy that both coaches and all of their players adopted, or do you understand and reject it.

I'll assume the goal in sports is to win, though I think that's debatable. Win what? The strategic goal of those two coaches and all their players was to win -- the tournament.

The winning team, in what seems to have been a quarter-final type of game, would have had to play the heavy favorite in the semi-final, then surely lose, and never get to the final game. The losing team in the quarters, on the other hand, would face a much easier team in the semi-final, hopefully win, and then make into the final with a chance for an upset against the big favorite. Therefore, by losing the quarter-final game, the team would get to play an extra game in the tournament, including a chance to upset the heavy favorite in the tournament's final game.

Two experienced coaches and all their players -- who can't be assumed to be non-competitive nitwits -- decided that the best tournament strategy was to tank the quarter-final game to get into the secondary bracket. What's irrational or evil about that?

I agree it's highly unusual for two teams to decide to tank in the same game -- and so blatantly -- but it may have been a very interesting one-time entertainment event.

As others have stated, pro teams have run different flavors of tanking from time immemorial, and it wouldn't surprise me if high school and AAU coaches have also done it throughout the ages -- though more subtly than in the Tennessee tournament -- to gain bracket advantages in double elimination tournaments.

None of this equates to "teaching someone to lose". I'm sure both coaches and teams played their hearts out to win every other game in their seasons, aside from this unusual tournament tactic oddity. They all should be judged on their entire season's body of work, unless they violated some clear league rule against tactical tanking.
summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 12:42 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I reject it out of hand as poor ethics and poor sportsmanship, just like running up the score and a few other questionable tactics. If you think it's okay, I question your ethics and sportsmanship. That's all. You play the luck of the draw. That's the way it is.



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dtrain34



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 4:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It's crap.

To win the championship, Blackman would have to be dealt with eventually, suck it up and take them on earlier rather than later.

Pro teams tank in the front office -- not on the court by trying to lose. They jettison high-priced mediocrities in favor of low-rent bottom feeding players who you better believe are working their personal asses off to look good to other potential employers even if collectively they aren't likely to win often.

This Smyrna game featured two teams full of girls making shitty plays on purpose, which falls under not respecting the game. It's not being too pompous or high minded to ask that kids try their hardest in every competition -- especially since people are paying to come watch.

In the example I cited in an earlier post, the team I was rooting for had one of those "its-hard-to-beat-a-good-team-three-times" rematches with its strongest league rival and could have faked through a loss. Instead they played to win and had to scrap to hold them off at the end. They then had a win in the first round of state but lost to a team any reasonable seeding would not have placed them in the same bracket with by 9 to end their season.

No one cried about it. Worse teams advanced to the Final Eight, got all-tourney players and WIAA "trophies" but the #1 seed won the championship and probably would have even if our team had tanked and taken an easy route to a "trophy (a top 8 designation folks in Washington seem to think has great meaning even if its 8th)"


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 5:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

we can talk about tanking vs throwing but the descriptions i've heard this is flat out throwing a game. Similar to the Olympic Badminton crisis.

You want to field an uncompetitive team to gain a future advantage...it's not right but it's hard to prove and police.

you tell players to give the ball away and otherwise not win, that's throwing a game and it's serious, Case closed.

This punishment is fair...Match Manipulation needs to be stamped out...it sets the wrong example, cheats all involved and at the HS level just sets the WRONG example.

Set an example...good show THSAA


calbearman76



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PostPosted: 02/24/15 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I agree with happycappie to a point. What occurred in the game was shameful (players intentionally turning the ball over and shooting at the wrong baskets) and I agree that both teams should have been thrown out of the tournament. It seems clear that the players were just as guilty as the coaches in perpetrating the farce.

But I would hope that the THSAA also learns a lesson. There should never be a situation where it is to the advantage of a team (or in this case both teams) to lose a game. The structure of the tournament should be revised to not establish matchups in advance.

It seems there were a few adults that acted properly including the referee and the Smyrna administrator who, albeit belatedly, told their plsyers to play to win. Let's hope that this serves as a learning experience for everyone.


Howee



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 1:17 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

From the few clips I saw of the actual game *action*, I think the most embarrassing thing these gals did was put on a demonstration that, unfortunately, might just come across as another average girls' basketball game, for those who don't follow girls' basketball game. Razz



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willtalk



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 3:01 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

dtrain34 wrote:
It's crap.

To win the championship, Blackman would have to be dealt with eventually, suck it up and take them on earlier rather than later.
"


From what I understand the top two teams went on in the state playoffs. The loser was just trying to not meet Blackman until the final game which would guarantee that they moved on whether they beat Blackman or not. It was not about beating Blackman but just making the finals to assure a spot in the state playoffs.


bballjunkie



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 9:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Didn't the Spurs and don't the Spurs sit players, sure mostly for age and rest reasons, but this is done everywhere in CA for example they have created the division of death as it is called, having several teams ranked nationally in the same section. The other teams who are forced to play in it try to tank to get put back in their real division for state. Not saying I agree with tanking but it is very common. Some of these top kids are playing in church leagues and of course they dominate but it's not comparable and the majority of high school ball in most states is pathetic, wining those states is like winning a rec league as the divisions are really weak.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 10:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

bballjunkie wrote:
Didn't the Spurs and don't the Spurs sit players, sure mostly for age and rest reasons, but this is done everywhere in CA for example they have created the division of death as it is called, having several teams ranked nationally in the same section. The other teams who are forced to play in it try to tank to get put back in their real division for state. Not saying I agree with tanking but it is very common. Some of these top kids are playing in church leagues and of course they dominate but it's not comparable and the majority of high school ball in most states is pathetic, wining those states is like winning a rec league as the divisions are really weak.


Good point...and I actually know of some college teams that have held out players of games that did not matter whether they won or lost them because they were more concerned about winning conference or national titles.

Again, that is different from the blatant giving the ball to the other team stuff but along the same lines.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 12:07 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Well, of course they do, but that is a whole different thing. This is just outright unsportsmanlike conduct and IMO adults setting a very poor example for young people.



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dtrain34



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 12:45 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
Well, of course they do, but that is a whole different thing. This is just outright unsportsmanlike conduct and IMO adults setting a very poor example for young people.


Ditto this. Resting people or even, in the NBA, compiling a weak roster to save money and move up in the draft is not remotely the same thing as blatantly trying to lose a game on the court.

When the Spurs leave Duncan and Ginobli home, their backups try. The individual Philadelphia 76ers are trying. I saw a college WBB coaches show the other day in which the coach admitted that, preparing for a league tournament and mathematically incapable of catching the leaders in the regular season standings, he plans to go with a deeper bench no matter what this weekend.

All very different than purposely dribbling into the backcourt or baseball-passing free throws.


Happycappie25



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 1:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

indeed, this is not tanking

this is throwing. PERIOD...glad that the Ref intervened and that the punishments were handed out...sadly this is now all over the media which just hurts the game...but this was handled correctly, now both coaches should be fired.

also this is HIGH SCHOOL...this is supposed to teach something...and well they did...ALWAYS GIVE 100% no matter what.


cattekin



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 2:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
Well, of course they do, but that is a whole different thing. This is just outright unsportsmanlike conduct and IMO adults setting a very poor example for young people.


As a chessplayer, I don't have teammates. So if the desire were to win a tournament, and throwing a game put me in better position to win the tournament, I'd notify the directors. Then if they didn't change the pairings, I'd try to throw the game.

As a coach, if the question arose, I'd lie to the team, and play for the win and a shot at the high seed.


Beemer



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 4:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It isn't often I agree with a Tennessee fan about anything but summertime blues has nailed this situation down with 100% accuracy.

You don't ever throw a game. There is never justification or rationalization for doing it.

Doing what these teams did shows a complete lack of integrity and respect for the game.



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uconnfan1



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PostPosted: 02/25/15 4:23 pm    ::: Re: Two girls' HS basketball teams booted from postseason pl Reply Reply with quote

Don't know why Tenn HS Assoc didn't reseed teams since two teams were disqualified. Blackman HS had to play Monday night, while the next team they're scheduled to play had a bye because of the disqualification.


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