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| Which of these do you dislike most about UConn WCBB? |
| The success of the program |
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10% |
[ 5 ] |
| The UConn players |
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4% |
[ 2 ] |
| Geno Auriemma |
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25% |
[ 12 ] |
| UConn fan behavior you've encountered in person |
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8% |
[ 4 ] |
| UConn fan behavior you've encountered on the internet |
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51% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 47 |
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| Author |
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8231
Location: Heisenberg
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 Posted: 02/25/15 11:11 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
That one |
It's not LByrd. |
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7848
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 02/25/15 11:16 pm ::: |
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| I know it isn't.
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BallState1984
Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 1892
Location: Halfway between Muncie and West Lafayette
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| Posted: 02/26/15 12:15 am ::: |
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| There was this one board that featured a DRIB, which was rumored to be Sue Bird's father. He was an ass.
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Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18031
Location: Queens
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| Posted: 02/26/15 9:04 am ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
UConn fans as a faceless mass in person are like a fungus, spreading to fill all available space and choking out anything or anyone else in the area.
Admittedly, some of it is dependent on the opponent. I have had a much more pleasant time dealing with UConn fans after becoming a St. John's fan than I did as a Rutgers fan. |
I'm not sure I understand all this or the psycho-dynamics involved. However, given that neither Rutgers nor St. John's is an opponent of UConn anymore, you will probably have to become a fan of the University of Tulsa if you want to continue frolicking in the fungi. |
I went to NCAA tournament games at Gampel while I was still a Rutgers fan. I heard deplorable racist shit from UConn fans while I was there, and Rutgers and UConn weren't even playing each other those rounds. People around us were rooting for Hartford solely because of Rizzotti, and then would turn around and berate us for not showing conference loyalty when we saw the UNC-UConn men's score.
As a St. John's fan, I attended a couple of BEast tournaments in Hartford, and most UConn fans were fairly friendly at that time. On the other hand, I stand by the fungus statement, given that they would fill Carnesecca to the point where people were sneaking into the student section and behind the home bench.
I do not miss UConn in the Big East.
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Happycappie25
Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 4174
Location: QUEENS!!!!
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| Posted: 02/26/15 9:21 am ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Queenie wrote: |
UConn fans as a faceless mass in person are like a fungus, spreading to fill all available space and choking out anything or anyone else in the area.
Admittedly, some of it is dependent on the opponent. I have had a much more pleasant time dealing with UConn fans after becoming a St. John's fan than I did as a Rutgers fan. |
I'm not sure I understand all this or the psycho-dynamics involved. However, given that neither Rutgers nor St. John's is an opponent of UConn anymore, you will probably have to become a fan of the University of Tulsa if you want to continue frolicking in the fungi. |
I went to NCAA tournament games at Gampel while I was still a Rutgers fan. I heard deplorable racist shit from UConn fans while I was there, and Rutgers and UConn weren't even playing each other those rounds. People around us were rooting for Hartford solely because of Rizzotti, and then would turn around and berate us for not showing conference loyalty when we saw the UNC-UConn men's score.
As a St. John's fan, I attended a couple of BEast tournaments in Hartford, and most UConn fans were fairly friendly at that time. On the other hand, I stand by the fungus statement, given that they would fill Carnesecca to the point where people were sneaking into the student section and behind the home bench.
I do not miss UConn in the Big East. |
They weren't even there to cheer Rizzo, they were there to berate and Boo Stringer and Cappie (this was at the flashpoint of the RU Uconn Rivalry) Showed up in hartford gear and I think I'd be hard pressed to find more than 25% who could name hartford's starters before it was announced at the beginning of the game.
it was a horrid first impression.
I will say and said before, Uconn fans have made a HUGE effort to tone it down in the arenas, but It still sticks with me.
As for the road raiding, they do it because they can, and I respect that, but at least show some respect to the home team (That too has gotten better but needs some work)
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mercfan3
Joined: 23 Nov 2004
Posts: 19763
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| Posted: 02/26/15 10:51 am ::: |
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I think when it comes to Uconn fans..there's just more of them then any other team. Of course there will be more assholes.
I think the poll is also missing media hype. Which, I think actually annoys more people than just about anything. And obviously, there's the hype for a pretty good reason..but I'm sure it gets tiring.
That being said..I still hate Rutgers. They aren't even relevant..but I hated them far more than I ever hated Tennessee (which I respected up untl the whole sanctions thing) and Notre Dame.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/26/15 11:20 am ::: |
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| mercfan3 wrote: |
I think when it comes to Uconn fans..there's just more of them then any other team. Of course there will be more assholes.
I think the poll is also missing media hype. Which, I think actually annoys more people than just about anything. And obviously, there's the hype for a pretty good reason..but I'm sure it gets tiring. |
Success also brings out bandwagon fans who don't know anything about the game, don't know anything about any other team, don't watch or follow any games other than those involving their newly found favorite, don't care about the game itself or the good of the game, and act accordingly.
It's what generates foolishness like internet rants that the entire UConn starting five should constitute the entire first team AA team, or that no recruit in the history of the earth has ever said no to Geno and if someone picks another school it's because Geno lost interest and rejected her.
There are plenty of knowledgeable UConn WBB fans. But because of its success and the extended period of that success it has attracted far more than its share of ignorant bandwagoners who don't know about and more importantly don't care about WBB and simply want to be associated with a winner. Hint - that you may have the best team does not mean that your dozen players are better than every player playing for every other team.
In the normal course, bandwagon fans usually disappear when their team slips. Because UConn has had an extended period of success, the numbers continue to grow and a lot of them have become entrenched and now think of themselves as long time dedicated WBB fans even though in reality they have never made any effort to learn anything about the game beyond the borders of Connecticut.
BTW, regarding your media comment, and judging from comments that pop up in the game threads here, I'd say one media practice that really pushes people's buttons is when the ESPN analysts covering some game in a different part of the country involving two teams in a different conference, neither of whom has played or is going to play UConn gratuitously start rambling on about UConn or UConn players. Look, the reality is that Bristol is 40 miles from Storrs. The ESPN people live in Connecticut. It's ESPN's home team. It would be nice if they'd leave the cheerleading to SNY though.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 5423
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| Posted: 02/26/15 1:25 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
..... many UConn internet fans overwhelmingly offer one particular reason to explain the negative feelings by other fans toward UConn: jealousy and envy of UConn's success. The haters hate UConn because they're green with envy.
I've never believed that. I've always thought that internet fans of other programs, and even many fans of UConn, are strongly put off by the internet behavior of a certain group or type of UConn fans.
This poll confirms that result, with dislike of Geno Auriemma coming in second.
So, my conclusion from these modest polls is that negative feelings about UConn are motivated mostly by the internet behavior of UConn fans and very little by envy or jealousy of UConn's success.
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The fly in your ointment is that you assume that everyone is being honest in their replies, both to the poll and to themselves.
I doubt anyone is eager to admit to petty envy and/or jealousy, even to themselves.
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So your interpretation of the anonymous poll results on this very pluralistic discussion board is that the people who say they dislike UConn because of (quoting Queenie) "obnoxious shit" behavior by UConn fans are actually suffused by a form of mental self-denial. These RebKellers don't recognize their unconscious paranoia of UConn envy.
Well, I fully agree with you, Linkster, that there's a group of WCBB fans on the internet suffused with a profound, if not paranoid, form of mental self-denial. As I said, that's why I took the poll. |
All this talk about UConn dominating message boards is absolutely true.
I'll guess that you have started at least as many threads about UConn as any UConn fan on this board. I don't start hardly any UConn threads here but I jump in when UConn is brought up, and you and others bring them up frequently. There have been 2 threads in the last couple of years dominated by the topic of how fat Lewis was/is. There was a the thread about how Kia Nurse would be fortunate to see floor time as a sub/role that was based on a fuzzy video you dug up that was over a year old. Remember those? Now you post one asking "why you dislike UConn". Doesn't that make you part of the problem you are describing? Some might infer from some of your UConn threads that you were simply throwing red meat out to induce a reaction from the very fanbase you describe as a "fungi".
I give you more credit.
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 7373
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 02/26/15 2:35 pm ::: |
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| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
The purpose of this poll is obviously not to induce people who have no dislikes of any kind toward the UConn program to say something negative about that program. The purpose is to tease out the specific reasons from those people who already do have negative feelings.
Why is that of interest? Because I've been posting on most boards for 15 years, and many UConn internet fans overwhelmingly offer one particular reason to explain the negative feelings by other fans toward UConn: jealousy and envy of UConn's success. The haters hate UConn because they're green with envy.
I've never believed that. I've always thought that internet fans of other programs, and even many fans of UConn, are strongly put off by the internet behavior of a certain group or type of UConn fans.
This poll confirms that result, with dislike of Geno Auriemma coming in second.
The first option in this poll was my surrogate for envy or jealousy. Only three responders confessed to that emotion. In Linkster's UConn admiration poll, UConn's success is the second thing most admired.
So, my conclusion from these modest polls is that negative feelings about UConn are motivated mostly by the internet behavior of UConn fans and very little by envy or jealousy of UConn's success.
Nevertheless, the poll on UConn domination shows that about half the fans here have a lessened interest in WCBB because of UConn's success. |
I think I was pretty specific. Despite the overwhelmingly positive personal experiences with UConn fans, the online self obsession some have is a BIG turn off. Even in this thread, I engaged in fun banter with a UConn fan I met in person.
Will this poll change one thing? Will be continue to be inundated with every Husky minutiae that some fan finds interesting? Will every thread continue to be turned into a "my Huskies are dominant" thread? Will you start another thread to talk about this thread? |
RAF, are you addressing me, because I wasn't responding to anything you said at all. I was just explaining my purpose for this poll and summarizing the results.
I don't expect this thread to "change" anything. It was just a poll seeking information.
If you expect UConn fans, who are the majority or plurality on most forums, to stop posting on the subject of UConn, that's an unreasonable and even irrational expectation.
If you expect UConn fans to post with respect for other posters, and without arrogance, condescension, personal insult or the trolling of other programs, that is a reasonable expectation. But don't hold your breath. |
Glenn. Let me be crystal clear. Yes, when I talk about UConn fans that start an incredible number of threads featuring minutiae about the UConn team, I am talking to you, the biggest culprit. Do I expect UConn fans to stop posting about their team? That would be silly, now wouldn't it? We all come here to post about our own team and engage in discussion when people post about their own team. But there's a difference between posting about your team and starting several different threads every day which feature things like long stat comparisons of each player. A thread devoted to every UConn recruit and their high school exploits. That is overkill. That self obsession is obnoxious.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 02/26/15 5:05 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| A thread devoted to every UConn recruit and their high school exploits. That is overkill. That self obsession is obnoxious. |
In defense of Glenn, I will point out that in connection with one of Glenn's thread's I recently raised that precise issue of whether threads about the high school exploits of a single school's recruits were appropriate, and the overwhelming sentiment here was that it was perfectly ok.
Doesn't seem fair to now turn around and rip him for it.
Personally, I find threads that are from the get go about UConn to be a lot less problematic than the interjection of UConn into threads that are about a different school or conference or players and have nothing to do with UConn. If I don't want to read a thread that the title makes clear is about Samuelson, I can skip it. But if I'm reading a thread about the Big 10, I don't need to see posts about how UConn is better than all the Big 10 teams put together, or whatever.
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auntie
Joined: 16 May 2006
Posts: 1774
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: 02/26/15 7:16 pm ::: |
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| Queenie wrote: |
UConn fans, on a face-to-face individual basis, or on a web-based individual basis given sufficient time, are fine- fans like any other, except with a lot to boast about. Faceless UConn fans are obnoxious shits. UConn fans as a faceless mass in person are like a fungus, spreading to fill all available space and choking out anything or anyone else in the area.
Admittedly, some of it is dependent on the opponent. I have had a much more pleasant time dealing with UConn fans after becoming a St. John's fan than I did as a Rutgers fan. |
It is comments like this that I hate most about UConn. I do not like any generalizations of any group in any form.
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GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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| Posted: 02/26/15 7:47 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
Glenn. . . . there's a difference between posting about your team and starting several different threads every day which feature things like long stat comparisons of each player. A thread devoted to every UConn recruit and their high school exploits. That is overkill. |
Your hyperbole made me curious. I've posted on open boards for a long time and have always attempted to balance my subject matter.
On this board, in the 104 days since the beginning of UConn's season on November 14, I have begun 35 threads, seven of which were polls. That's an average of about one thread every three days.
Of those 35 threads, 17 had some connection to UConn, while 18 were on other teams or subjects. Three of the polls involve UConn, four do not. Four threads were about high school recruits, two of UConn's and two not. Two threads were about Duke.
Therefore, 48.5% of my threads this season have involved UConn, which have been created at a rate of about 1.1 UConn thread per week.
Perhaps your perception is skewed because some of my threads have been popular and persisted on the first page. I also noticed that I posted about UConn a few times in bursts surrounding, for example, the Stanford and South Carolina games. |
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 02/27/15 4:44 am ::: |
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| btharner wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, has any UConn fan here actually attended a UConn home game, pre-Geno? I'm not insinuating that all Connecticut fans are bandwagon jumpers (many teams have developed rabid followings from nothing). I just wonder if there is anybody whose fandom pre-dates the team's phenomenal success. |
I knew a few years ago who started following the program right around its rise (which, IMO, kind of counts, since they weren't the established program yet), and those were usually the ones who were most down to earth and respectful of other programs.
One good friend of mine even commented that he remembered when Gampel was being built and how some fans at the time were worried that they'd never fill the place!
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CBiebel
Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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| Posted: 02/27/15 5:17 am ::: |
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Let me give you some personal examples:
Back a few years ago when Louisville beat Baylor in the Elite Eight (a big game), I made a post in my exuberance (I really didn't like Griner's domination of the sport. I'll be honest in that respect. It wasn't so much technique as the fact that she was not a typically talented player, but just had a lot of height with her athleticism). Basically, since Walz came up with a game plan (granted with help from the refs a bit in their loose calling of the game) that ended up beating them, I made a late night post saying something like "If I see you in a bar, I'll buy you a drink!" Basically, I thought that the guy did a great job of coaching, David beat Goliath, etc. No biggie. It was a spur of the moment post.
Later, one UConn fan mentioned that I "wrote an 'Ode' to Walz." (Actually, I just said something about buying him a drink. Hardly an "Ode.") Lately, another, when I misspelled Walz's name, made a snide remark about "Well, if you want to ask him out of a drink, you should spell his name correctly." Such close attention to a spur of the moment post game post from 2 years ago! WTF?
Then you have another UConn fan who actually went so far as to write to the NCAA about how ND cheats, refs make all the calls in their favor, etc. He even went so far as to ask for examples of this for his letter. As a way of trying to make a point, I posted examples of bad reffing calls that went against ND (not suggesting that bad calls have never favored ND, but pointing out that they often work both ways).
The guy also often attacked ND for "flopping" etc. And yet, in a recent thread in which he asked "Are UConn fans really arrogant?" when I pointed out some of his previous positions, he tried to backtrack, saying "I have a lot of respect for the ND program..." (He's never shown it in the past, but suddenly when accused of arrogance, he says he has this respect.)
After the 2001 NC, I suggested that ND could end up looking like UConn in style. I was laughed at. Granted, it took about 10 years for this to take shape, but is it really that far fetched of a prediction? Yes, ND still only has 1 NC, while UConn (who has won a lot more NCs in the meantime) seems to have an insurmountable lead. If you look just at NCs, then yes, it seems silly. However, look at other factors: UConn has an offense that is very pass oriented, with a lot of assists. ND has an offense that is very pass oriented with a lot of assists. UConn has a strong defense. ND has a strong defense. UConn has a strong recruiting ability. ND (particularly lately, this, IMO is what held up ND in this category) now has a lot of very strong recruiting classes. UConn has been dominating overall in W. Bball with occasional slips (See Stanford this year). ND has been dominating (except against UConn (lately, they did have a good 2-3 year run)) except for an occasional slip (Miami this year). Are they that different to dispute my prediction?
Like I said in another post on this thread, I've known a lot of nice UConn fans in person. In fact, I remember one UConn fan arguing, before a ND-UConn game, with another fan that "UConn can't keep beating a team like ND every time. ND is too talented." The person he was arguing with said that "I know a machine when I see one. UConn is a machine and you can't beat a machine." (Yes, I remember his exact words.) This was right before ND's first win over UConn (ND 92 UConn 76).
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PeachBasket
Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 768
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| Posted: 02/27/15 7:26 am ::: |
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| btharner wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, has any UConn fan here actually attended a UConn home game, pre-Geno? I'm not insinuating that all Connecticut fans are bandwagon jumpers (many teams have developed rabid followings from nothing). I just wonder if there is anybody whose fandom pre-dates the team's phenomenal success. |
In case you hadn't noticed, "pre-Geno" is a looooong time ago. I remember discovering that the high school I had gone to had an all-American basketball player on it, she was a she, and only a sophomore. I had to go see that. So I went to see Rebecca Lobo before she was a Husky, and following her is how I became a UConn fan. But, please, don't let the real experiences of real people interfere with your resentment-driven stereotypes.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 12851
Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 02/27/15 9:55 am ::: |
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| btharner wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, has any UConn fan here actually attended a UConn home game, pre-Geno? I'm not insinuating that all Connecticut fans are bandwagon jumpers (many teams have developed rabid followings from nothing). I just wonder if there is anybody whose fandom pre-dates the team's phenomenal success. |
Geno was hired in 1985.
UConn's first FF was 1991.
When I attended my first game in Nov/Dec '92, I had no idea they had gone to the FF 2 years earlier. I knew nothing about them, or Geno, but my GF had recently graduated from there and suggested we check it out. I loved how they played the game, and I especially liked Rizzotti's determination and guts. She was a freshman then.
That '92-93 season was the last "bad" year for UConn- they lost in the quarterfinals of the Big East tournament to Providence in Providence (I was there), then lost in Rd 1 of the NCAA to Louisville at Gampel. (I wasn't there). That was the last time they've lost consecutive games.
In '94 they lost to scumbag Tonya Sampson (who cold-cocked Rizzotti in the gut w/ an elbow) and UNC in the E8. Then came '95 and "the team's phenomenal success".
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btharner
Joined: 17 Feb 2008
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| Posted: 02/27/15 6:10 pm ::: |
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| PeachBasket wrote: |
| btharner wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, has any UConn fan here actually attended a UConn home game, pre-Geno? I'm not insinuating that all Connecticut fans are bandwagon jumpers (many teams have developed rabid followings from nothing). I just wonder if there is anybody whose fandom pre-dates the team's phenomenal success. |
In case you hadn't noticed, "pre-Geno" is a looooong time ago. I remember discovering that the high school I had gone to had an all-American basketball player on it, she was a she, and only a sophomore. I had to go see that. So I went to see Rebecca Lobo before she was a Husky, and following her is how I became a UConn fan. But, please, don't let the real experiences of real people interfere with your resentment-driven stereotypes. |
If you detected resentment in my post then I do not know what to make of you. I asked a simple question to see how far back some people's interest in Connecticut went, even perhaps before Geno was hired. I do not know how old people are on this board or how far back their interest in the sport dates (in my case 1989).
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myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
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| Posted: 02/27/15 6:47 pm ::: |
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I have no problem with lots of threads about UConn. I'm not a UConn fan and don't always open the threads. Like this one, I just got around to it now. But clearly lots of people had something to say and were interested, even if it's just to say they didn't like it. I personally find it somewhat interesting to hear about high school recruits and other slightly off-the-beaten-track stuff.
UConn has had great success under Geno and the fans have plenty to be proud of, but like fans of any team, it's hard to paint them all with one brush.
And I really don't want to see Rebkells or its posters always being totally PC. To me it's fun to see what people really think.
Bottom line, I have no problem with Glenn's threads. Why don't more people post threads about their teams?
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If only we’re brave enough to be it.
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terpsforever
Joined: 17 Jul 2011
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| Posted: 02/27/15 6:56 pm ::: |
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| I don't dislike the Uconn program. What I dislike is every other school being unable to beat them. It's pathetic. That's all other major coaches and programs. I'm tired of Uconn winning NCs.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
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| Posted: 02/27/15 7:29 pm ::: |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
The purpose of this poll is obviously not to induce people who have no dislikes of any kind toward the UConn program to say something negative about that program. The purpose is to tease out the specific reasons from those people who already do have negative feelings.
Why is that of interest? Because I've been posting on most boards for 15 years, and many UConn internet fans overwhelmingly offer one particular reason to explain the negative feelings by other fans toward UConn: jealousy and envy of UConn's success. The haters hate UConn because they're green with envy.
I've never believed that. I've always thought that internet fans of other programs, and even many fans of UConn, are strongly put off by the internet behavior of a certain group or type of UConn fans.
This poll confirms that result, with dislike of Geno Auriemma coming in second.
The first option in this poll was my surrogate for envy or jealousy. Only three responders confessed to that emotion. In Linkster's UConn admiration poll, UConn's success is the second thing most admired.
So, my conclusion from these modest polls is that negative feelings about UConn are motivated mostly by the internet behavior of UConn fans and very little by envy or jealousy of UConn's success.
Nevertheless, the poll on UConn domination shows that about half the fans here have a lessened interest in WCBB because of UConn's success. |
I think I was pretty specific. Despite the overwhelmingly positive personal experiences with UConn fans, the online self obsession some have is a BIG turn off. Even in this thread, I engaged in fun banter with a UConn fan I met in person.
Will this poll change one thing? Will be continue to be inundated with every Husky minutiae that some fan finds interesting? Will every thread continue to be turned into a "my Huskies are dominant" thread? Will you start another thread to talk about this thread? |
RAF, are you addressing me, because I wasn't responding to anything you said at all. I was just explaining my purpose for this poll and summarizing the results.
I don't expect this thread to "change" anything. It was just a poll seeking information.
If you expect UConn fans, who are the majority or plurality on most forums, to stop posting on the subject of UConn, that's an unreasonable and even irrational expectation.
If you expect UConn fans to post with respect for other posters, and without arrogance, condescension, personal insult or the trolling of other programs, that is a reasonable expectation. But don't hold your breath. |
Glenn. Let me be crystal clear. Yes, when I talk about UConn fans that start an incredible number of threads featuring minutiae about the UConn team, I am talking to you, the biggest culprit. Do I expect UConn fans to stop posting about their team? That would be silly, now wouldn't it? We all come here to post about our own team and engage in discussion when people post about their own team. But there's a difference between posting about your team and starting several different threads every day which feature things like long stat comparisons of each player. A thread devoted to every UConn recruit and their high school exploits. That is overkill. That self obsession is obnoxious. |
I like Glenn's threads. They are often provocative and creative, and are certainly not boastful of UConn's success. Keep them up, Glenn! If I tire of them, I can click elsewhere. You never hijack threads, which is the thing that seems to upset people the most. Nor are you argumentative, although your threads often elicit disagreements among respondents.
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btharner
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tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: 02/28/15 12:28 am ::: |
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| I dislike the fact that they get the best players out of high school and then when they dominate the coach gets lauded and lionized and the players have praise heaped on them as if they came out of the starting gate equal to the other top 25 teams or top 10 teams, but through determination, intelligence, hard work and fantastic strategy and techniques, were able to get a leg up on the competition.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 5423
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