| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Skyfan22
Joined: 12 Aug 2013
Posts: 520
Back to top |
 Posted: 12/19/14 7:24 pm ::: What is up with Tennessee? |
Reply  |
|
| What the H-E-double hockey sticks is the problem with Tennessee's offense. I have several ideas, but I would love to hear the musings of some of the well versed rebkell posters.
|
|
myrtle
Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 32335
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/19/14 8:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| I'm no expert on UTenn but my impression is they rely too much on athleticism instead of ball movement and other teams have caught up in the athleticism department; they don't have very good outside shooting so teams can pack it in on their posts; and they don't utilize their posts very well.
_________________
For there is always light,
if only we’re brave enough to see it.
If only we’re brave enough to be it.
- Amanda Gorman
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/19/14 9:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago.
|
|
FS02
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Posts: 9699
Location: Husky (west coast) Country
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/19/14 10:01 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
I just don't understand that philosophy. Obviously the truly elite teams in WBB are now excelling at both ends of the floor. If this sport were like the NFL, everyone would be copying them.
_________________
@dtmears2
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 9:52 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I think there is a problem with the team chemistry, and that doesn't come from the coach. I haven't seen a definite leader come from within the last couple of teams, or this one yet.
The chemistry on the 2008 team flowed, not from Parker, but from Nicky Anosike. She was the acknowledged leader and everything pretty much flowed from her. She was the one who kept everyone together, raised hell when it needed to be raised, and raised spirits when they were down. Taber Spani was as close to that as it got on the last team, and she didn't quite have the fire needed, though she tried. Somebody needs to step up on this team and they haven't. Neither Izzy nor Bashaara has the temperament for it. Jasmine Jones might but it's hard to tell.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 10:42 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
Way to misrepresent what Holly said. She has emphasized defense, and has admitted to working on that at the expense of offense. During the Christmas break, they are expected to get the offense tightened up.
Currently, what is wrong with the offense is the shots aren't falling. They get good looks but can't get the shot to fall.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 11:30 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
Way to misrepresent what Holly said. She has emphasized defense, and has admitted to working on that at the expense of offense. During the Christmas break, they are expected to get the offense tightened up.
Currently, what is wrong with the offense is the shots aren't falling. They get good looks but can't get the shot to fall. |
I guess you didn't listen to her recent press conference 'cause she said just what I wrote.
|
|
PRballer
Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 2544
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 12:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I am no expert on Xs and Os and I'm certainly not a coach, but here's been my impression of Warlick when it comes to coaching.
She seems a little disorganized - or maybe the better word is hectic? flustered? in a hurry?
I've watched her do coaching clinics on YouTube and she seems a bit all over the place - a lot of coaches, I've seen make it all seem simple and straightforward.
Does Holly?
For example, for SEC Media Day at ESPN in Charlotte, they had Debbie Antonelli do film work with the coaches to describe offensive plays they run. So you had all the SEC coaches talking Xs and Ox and it was very interesting. Holly's piece seemed a bit chaotic and she didn't explain it very clear.
She's a solid coach with a ton of experience, and she's won the SEC and gotten her teams to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8. I'm not saying she needs to go or she's terrible - it's just seems like a new era in Knoxville and Tennessee isn't the contender they were under Summitt.
Maybe DeShields will help get them back to FF regulars since she seems like the first truly elite player they've had in a while.
|
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 5:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
Way to misrepresent what Holly said. She has emphasized defense, and has admitted to working on that at the expense of offense. During the Christmas break, they are expected to get the offense tightened up.
Currently, what is wrong with the offense is the shots aren't falling. They get good looks but can't get the shot to fall. |
I guess you didn't listen to her recent press conference 'cause she said just what I wrote. |
And you took it out of context. She was talking about the team's defensive effort against Texas. She said she didn't care about their offense if the players didn't get in a defensive stance, the offense didn't matter (not an exact quote).
If you watched the Stanford game today, you will see there was time put into the offense. Holly has focused on defense all three seasons and this team seems to get it. Now they are putting the work in on the offense and it showed today.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/20/14 6:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
Way to misrepresent what Holly said. She has emphasized defense, and has admitted to working on that at the expense of offense. During the Christmas break, they are expected to get the offense tightened up.
Currently, what is wrong with the offense is the shots aren't falling. They get good looks but can't get the shot to fall. |
I guess you didn't listen to her recent press conference 'cause she said just what I wrote. |
And you took it out of context. She was talking about the team's defensive effort against Texas. She said she didn't care about their offense if the players didn't get in a defensive stance, the offense didn't matter (not an exact quote).
If you watched the Stanford game today, you will see there was time put into the offense. Holly has focused on defense all three seasons and this team seems to get it. Now they are putting the work in on the offense and it showed today. |
Go back and watch it again. She went on at length about her philosophy and priorities. It was most definitely NOT just about one game.
The wanting to do the same things Tenn has been doing for 30 years cannot possibly be twisted into being only about one game. Nor can the rest of her comments.
|
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/21/14 11:59 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Coaching matters.
They have a coach who says she doesn't care about offense, and that she wants to do the same thing they've done for thirty years.
You know what? The game has changed. Nowhere - not NBA, not MCBB, not WCBB - is the game even close to the same game as it was 30 years ago. |
Way to misrepresent what Holly said. She has emphasized defense, and has admitted to working on that at the expense of offense. During the Christmas break, they are expected to get the offense tightened up.
Currently, what is wrong with the offense is the shots aren't falling. They get good looks but can't get the shot to fall. |
I guess you didn't listen to her recent press conference 'cause she said just what I wrote. |
And you took it out of context. She was talking about the team's defensive effort against Texas. She said she didn't care about their offense if the players didn't get in a defensive stance, the offense didn't matter (not an exact quote).
If you watched the Stanford game today, you will see there was time put into the offense. Holly has focused on defense all three seasons and this team seems to get it. Now they are putting the work in on the offense and it showed today. |
Go back and watch it again. She went on at length about her philosophy and priorities. It was most definitely NOT just about one game.
The wanting to do the same things Tenn has been doing for 30 years cannot possibly be twisted into being only about one game. Nor can the rest of her comments. |
If you listen to the Holly's post game comments after every game it is clear that she wants this team's identity to be a defensive stopper. She has said that when kids come in they all can play offense, but they have to be taught defense. Emphasizing defense and rebounding has been the philosophy at Tennessee since 1974. Last I checked, the game has not changed to the point where those two elements are unimportant. She has also said that during the Christmas break the team was going to put up a lot of shots because they have emphasized defense to the point that 70% of the practices have been concentrated on that. Now that it seems that the team has bought in to defense, the staff are going to emphasize hitting shots. As was plain to see in the Stanford game, both ends of the court looked good...defense was stifling and the offense was flowing. The only problem was (other than Ariel and in the first half, Graves) the open looks they generated weren't falling.
Taken out of context, it does sound like Holly doesn't care about offense. But as a whole (especially after the Rutgers game), the gist of her message is that yes, defense is the most important to her...but the identity of her team is to generate offense from their defense. And if they can't do that, there isn't an offense. I would look for them to be a much better shooting team by conference play.
|
|
FrozenLVFan
Joined: 08 Jul 2014
Posts: 3511
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/22/14 4:31 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
After listening to most all of Holly's statements, I agree with Bekcat.
As to what's wrong with the offense:
1) Harrison's knee injury which kept her out of the first 5 or 6 games. Not only was her scoring missed, but the offense revolves around her and it took a while to get back in sync after she returned. Her fire and leadership were missed as well.
2) Poor passing leading to a stagnant offense. This has been much improved in the past 2 or 3 games. Will see if the improvement continues.
3) Poor outside shooting. Tenn has 3 guards who take care of the ball and play pretty good defense but can't throw it in the ocean, and one who can hit from outside but has become a turnover machine and can't play D. Collectively, they all need to step up their games or it's going to be a long season.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/22/14 4:43 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Well, here is the press conference to which I was referring. I'll let others listen for themselves unfiltered. It's not ambiguous. Especially the last 5 minutes or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqhQtKXqRY
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/22/14 5:15 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
After listening to most all of Holly's statements, I agree with Bekcat.
As to what's wrong with the offense:
1) Harrison's knee injury which kept her out of the first 5 or 6 games. Not only was her scoring missed, but the offense revolves around her and it took a while to get back in sync after she returned. Her fire and leadership were missed as well.
2) Poor passing leading to a stagnant offense. This has been much improved in the past 2 or 3 games. Will see if the improvement continues.
3) Poor outside shooting. Tenn has 3 guards who take care of the ball and play pretty good defense but can't throw it in the ocean, and one who can hit from outside but has become a turnover machine and can't play D. Collectively, they all need to step up their games or it's going to be a long season. |
Something else that's wrong with Tennessee is that they can't shoot FTs. What's up with that? They've always been a good free throw shooting team! And I know Holly is still shuffling the lineup, trying to get everyone some minutes and find what combinations work best, but it's time to settle on something. I do agree with Massengale coming off the bench, though. She's definitely doing better from there.
However. Art needs to get off his little hobbyhorse, not that he ever will. One thing I've known about Holly for years is that while she is very good one on one or in a small group, she's just not very articulate in a press conference. Never was, never will be. She has a hard time answering questions off the cuff. It's just how she is. Too bad, but a fact of life. I kind of wish she'd let Kyra Elzy do the press conferences but I guess she feels she has to. I think it has something to do with the fact that Holly is basically kind of an introvert. People expect her to be as extroverted and as quick on the draw as Pat was, and she's just not.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 7:24 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| FrozenLVFan wrote: |
After listening to most all of Holly's statements, I agree with Bekcat.
As to what's wrong with the offense:
1) Harrison's knee injury which kept her out of the first 5 or 6 games. Not only was her scoring missed, but the offense revolves around her and it took a while to get back in sync after she returned. Her fire and leadership were missed as well.
2) Poor passing leading to a stagnant offense. This has been much improved in the past 2 or 3 games. Will see if the improvement continues.
3) Poor outside shooting. Tenn has 3 guards who take care of the ball and play pretty good defense but can't throw it in the ocean, and one who can hit from outside but has become a turnover machine and can't play D. Collectively, they all need to step up their games or it's going to be a long season. |
Something else that's wrong with Tennessee is that they can't shoot FTs. What's up with that? They've always been a good free throw shooting team! And I know Holly is still shuffling the lineup, trying to get everyone some minutes and find what combinations work best, but it's time to settle on something. I do agree with Massengale coming off the bench, though. She's definitely doing better from there.
However. Art needs to get off his little hobbyhorse, not that he ever will. One thing I've known about Holly for years is that while she is very good one on one or in a small group, she's just not very articulate in a press conference. Never was, never will be. She has a hard time answering questions off the cuff. It's just how she is. Too bad, but a fact of life. I kind of wish she'd let Kyra Elzy do the press conferences but I guess she feels she has to. I think it has something to do with the fact that Holly is basically kind of an introvert. People expect her to be as extroverted and as quick on the draw as Pat was, and she's just not. |
The Lady Vols are shooting 74% on FT for the season. Not great, but not horrible, either. The last few games have been a marked improvement. The real issue to me is hitting the open looks they are now generating, and that will come. Their next game on the 28th will be an interesting test for them against Oregon St.
I find Holly a much better interview after a win than a loss, just because of the way Tennessee lost their two games (especially the Chattanooga loss...an effort loss if I ever saw and because of that, a much deserved loss). I would be at a loss for words, too after those two losses.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7822
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 10:24 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| I think back to the days of FT shooters like Kellie Jolly and Shanna Zolman and Kara Lawson, when FTs were a sure thing and you pretty much knew you were assured of 2. Now it seems they're lucky to go 1 for 2, especially with the bigs.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 11:13 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, here is the press conference to which I was referring. I'll let others listen for themselves unfiltered. It's not ambiguous. Especially the last 5 minutes or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqhQtKXqRY |
LOL...You posted the post game from the Texas game...the same game I referenced in one of my posts. One post game rather than the plural you referred to, by the way. And yeah, you took one thing she said and interpreted it your own way.
You're going to hear and believe what you want to hear and believe. There's no way facts are going to get in the way of what you think you hear. Watch her post game after Rutgers and after Stanford for more clarity on offense vs. defense.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 2:03 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| bekcat1 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Well, here is the press conference to which I was referring. I'll let others listen for themselves unfiltered. It's not ambiguous. Especially the last 5 minutes or so.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqhQtKXqRY |
LOL...You posted the post game from the Texas game...the same game I referenced in one of my posts. One post game rather than the plural you referred to, by the way. And yeah, you took one thing she said and interpreted it your own way.
You're going to hear and believe what you want to hear and believe. There's no way facts are going to get in the way of what you think you hear. Watch her post game after Rutgers and after Stanford for more clarity on offense vs. defense. |
I'm not the one spinning. She said what she said. It's plain English. It's you and the other Vol fans that are straining with all the "well you need to consider all the other things she has said over the months or years" or my favorite "well she doesn't do very well at press conferences" which I guess is supposed to mean we're not supposed to take seriously the things she says in plain English. And now I guess you prefer what she said in some other press conference so we're supposed to listen to your favorite and simply pretend this one never happened. You get an A for effort. Of course there's no reason to think for a second that her comments after Rutgers more accurately present her real views than her comments after Texas did. You just wish they did.
I posted it so everyone can listen for themselves without all the spin. They'll find I was quite accurate in my comments.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 2:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Per possession based metrics from WBB State, Tennessee's offense is in the top 7% in the country, and they are even stronger than that in the old-fashioned Vol way: defense and rebounding.
On offense, Tenn is 23rd in points per possession (O-PPP) at 1.04.
-- SCar is tied for second 2nd at 1.14
-- UConn is 1st at 1.21
-- Notre Dame is tied for 2nd at 1.14
-- the national average is 0.88
Tenn is 5th in the country in points allowed per possession (D-PPP) at 0.69.
-- SCar is 1st at 0.67
-- UConn is 10th at 0.73
-- Notre Dame is 20th at 0.75
-- the national average is 0.88
Tenn is 8th in the country in Reb%, which measures the percentage of offensive and defensive missed shots successfully rebounded, at 59.6.
-- SCar is 14th at 58.5
-- UConn is 35th at 56.9
-- Notre Dame is 30th at 57.2
-- the national average is 51.3
Considering there are 349 D1 teams, in the context of these particular statistics Tennessee is producing at a very high level on offense and at an elite level on defense and rebounding.
What's the problem? |
|
Youth Coach
Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 4760
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 3:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I think back to the days of FT shooters like Kellie Jolly and Shanna Zolman and Kara Lawson, when FTs were a sure thing and you pretty much knew you were assured of 2. Now it seems they're lucky to go 1 for 2, especially with the bigs. |
And people thought I was wasting time when I devoted portions of my practice on foul shooting... |
|
bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 3:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
Per possession based metrics from WBB State, Tennessee's offense is in the top 7% in the country, and they are even stronger than that in the old-fashioned Vol way: defense and rebounding.
On offense, Tenn is 23rd in points per possession (O-PPP) at 1.04.
-- SCar is tied for second 2nd at 1.14
-- UConn is 1st at 1.21
-- Notre Dame is tied for 2nd at 1.14
-- the national average is 0.88
Tenn is 5th in the country in points allowed per possession (D-PPP) at 0.69.
-- SCar is 1st at 0.67
-- UConn is 10th at 0.73
-- Notre Dame is 20th at 0.75
-- the national average is 0.88
Tenn is 8th in the country in Reb%, which measures the percentage of offensive and defensive missed shots successfully rebounded, at 59.6.
-- SCar is 14th at 58.5
-- UConn is 35th at 56.9
-- Notre Dame is 30th at 57.2
-- the national average is 51.3
Considering there are 349 D1 teams, in the context of these particular statistics Tennessee is producing at a very high level on offense and at an elite level on defense and rebounding.
What's the problem? |
That's what I want to know.
And thanks for the stats. I'll take the offensive stats with a grain of salt, because the reality is the Lady Vols' actual FG% is kind of mediocre. It'll be fine, I think by conference play (more hopefully by the Oregon State game). But that's the first time in a long time I've seen Tennessee listed top ten in any offensive or defensive stat, so I'll definitely take it.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 3:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
Something else that's wrong with Tennessee is that they can't shoot FTs. What's up with that? |
Tenn is currently 38 out of 349 D1 teams in FT% at 73.7%.
NCar St. is 1 at 79.0%
Notre Dame is 9 at 77.3%
UConn is 67 at 71.6%
SCar is 251 at 65.3%
The national median is about 68.05%
So, Tenn is 5.3% behind the national leader. Is this a serious issue? |
|
Shades
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 63763
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 4:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Tenn was 13-25 FT against TX. 13-22 against close call Wichita St. So I guess you could conclude that poor FT shooting can lose you games.
How's their 3P shooting rank?
_________________
Nnekalonians 1:14 - Thou shalt not accept that which is not earned
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 12/23/14 4:43 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| bekcat1 wrote: |
I'll take the offensive stats with a grain of salt, because the reality is the Lady Vols' actual FG% is kind of mediocre. |
| Shades wrote: |
| How's their 3P shooting rank? |
Out of 349 D1 teams Tenn is #:
- 81 in overall FG% at 42.3
- 101 in 2FG% at 45.5
- 183 in 3FG% at 30.4
Tennessee could really improve on their 23rd best O-PPP and become elite in that statistic if they could improve their overall FG% and especially their below average 3FG%. |
|
|
|
