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pilight



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 12:51 pm    ::: Coaches poll out Reply Reply with quote

http://sportspolls.usatoday.com/ncaa/basketball-women/polls/coaches-poll/

Notre Dame still #1

Texas up to #4

North Carolina up to #6

Tennessee down to #14

Mississippi State in, James Madison out



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 2:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Notre Dame picked up 5 more 1st place votes, South Carolina lost 4, UConn lost 1 and Texas got 2.

Also, 9 teams moved up or down 3 spots or more and 15 moved up or down 2 spots or more. It was really quite a shake-up after the top 3.


larmarch5



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 2:31 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

This has the AP and Coaches' rankings
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings

I think once conference play begins, Cal will move ahead of Stanford in the PAC-12.


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 2:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

larmarch5 wrote:
This has the AP and Coaches' rankings
http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/rankings

I think once conference play begins, Cal will move ahead of Stanford in the PAC-12.


but...but...Stanford was more impressive in beating good ol' Hawaii than Cal!

Cal hasn't really played anyone, and Stanford has a great win--EVEN IF IT'S A FLUKE, A WIN IS A WIN.


Phil



Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 12/02/14 5:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coaches liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?




Last edited by Phil on 12/03/14 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 5:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?


It seems a lot of the time that the coaches poll is less reliable than the writers poll, although "reliable" is a very relative term here. As a general rule, coaches pay less attention to how good particular teams are than writers. The coaches often seem to have some "huh?" votes mixed in with the rational ones. There's at least some belief that it's because the coaches don't always do the voting themselves, but instead fob it off on an overworked assistant or the SID.

I have to say that I really don't know why JMU would get a lot of votes. The Dukes beat UCLA, but that was the first game of the season, and since then they've beaten a bunch of schools that nobody thinks are good and lost pretty handily to Maryland. Maybe this is one of those "huh?" situations.


Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 5:57 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?

Maybe if the two seem about even, the coaches prefer to reward the coach who has paid his/her dues for a longer period of time. Or perhaps the coaches value recent track record more than the media. Honestly, it doesn't matter, but it is fun to think about.


CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 12/02/14 7:21 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?


The coaches often seem to have some "huh?" votes mixed in with the rational ones. There's at least some belief that it's because the coaches don't always do the voting themselves, but instead fob it off on an overworked assistant or the SID.



While that is true, another reason could apply if the coaches actually were doing the voting: Most coaches don't really pay much attention to teams not on their schedule. Their biggest concern is the next game and then the next few after that. Writers, however, are actually being paid to follow many teams.

I remember (unfortunately) way back when Bob Davie was ND's Football coach and he was once quoted after a bye weekend, something along the lines of how amazing it was to be able to watch so many games on TV that Saturday.


Howee



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 8:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The biggest " Question " for me is the discrepancy in the MD placings, and that of Arkansas. In that regard, the USA poll matches what I believe is most accurate. The general alignment for most teams, tho, is interesting. But it's all so....*temporary*, no? Shocked



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Fighting Artichoke



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 8:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Howee wrote:
The biggest " Question " for me is the discrepancy in the MD placings, and that of Arkansas. In that regard, the USA poll matches what I believe is most accurate. The general alignment for most teams, tho, is interesting. But it's all so....*temporary*, no? Shocked


Maryland is rated very differently in the 2 polls, but I don't think that Arkansas is. They are 25th in one poll and 28th in the other, so their positions isn't that different (although their points are).


Howee



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 8:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
.... I don't think that Arkansas is. They are 25th in one poll and 28th in the other, so their positions isn't that different (although their points are).


Technically, you're right. I *saw* AR as being further down in the Coaches' Poll than they actually are. Very Happy



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 9:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
beknighted wrote:
Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?


The coaches often seem to have some "huh?" votes mixed in with the rational ones. There's at least some belief that it's because the coaches don't always do the voting themselves, but instead fob it off on an overworked assistant or the SID.



While that is true, another reason could apply if the coaches actually were doing the voting: Most coaches don't really pay much attention to teams not on their schedule. Their biggest concern is the next game and then the next few after that. Writers, however, are actually being paid to follow many teams.

I remember (unfortunately) way back when Bob Davie was ND's Football coach and he was once quoted after a bye weekend, something along the lines of how amazing it was to be able to watch so many games on TV that Saturday.


Yeah, I think that makes sense.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 12/02/14 10:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CBiebel wrote:
Writers, however, are actually being paid to follow many teams.


Some sports writers cover only one WCBB team--the team at the local university--yet they sometimes appear on the AP panel. Unless these writers also happen to be fans of the sport, they may see no one other than their assigned WCBB team and its opponents.
PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 12/02/14 10:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Fighting Artichoke wrote:
Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?

Maybe if the two seem about even, the coaches prefer to reward the coach who has paid his/her dues for a longer period of time. Or perhaps the coaches value recent track record more than the media. Honestly, it doesn't matter, but it is fun to think about.


Or maybe ND has been more impressive this season.


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 10:41 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Do we need to have a Rebkell Top 15 again? Laughing


FollowtheCardinalRule



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 10:52 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My current Top 15 would be...

1. Notre Dame
2. South Carolina
3. Texas
4. UConn
5. North Carolina
6. Texas A&M
7. Stanford
8. California
9. Duke
10. Nebraska
11. Louisville
12. Baylor
13. Oregon State
14. Kentucky
15. Michigan State

Just missed: Vanderbilt, Arizona State, Green Bay.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/02/14 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
CBiebel wrote:
Writers, however, are actually being paid to follow many teams.


Some sports writers cover only one WCBB team--the team at the local university--yet they sometimes appear on the AP panel. Unless these writers also happen to be fans of the sport, they may see no one other than their assigned WCBB team and its opponents.


A lot of the AP panel consists of either national journalists (Voepel, Antonelli, Lawson) or reporters at places where following the game nationally is kind of expected (Connecticut, Tennessee). The reporters also tend to stay on the panel, while the coaches are replaced every year. And I think the reporters, on the whole, are likely to feel a responsibility to be careful with their votes, something that I'm not really sure you can say about the coaches.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 12/03/14 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think history has shown there to be more indefensible, ignorant, or parochial outlier votes in the AP polls than in the coaches. I don't agree that across the board the writers are any more conscientious than the coaches; I'm sure there is a wide range in each. I expect the coaches take a bit different view and have a bit different perspective on who is good than do the writers.

Does anyone have a list of the current AP voters? I'm somewhat surprised by the claim that a large chunk of them have a national focus. That certainly is not the case in football where the overwhelming majority are writers for local newspapers focused on the local teams and markets. Maybe the WBB poll is different; it's certainly smaller. But I'd be very curious to see the list.

There also was a curious follow-the-leader phenomenon that surfaced in the football polls this year. The first week that the new playoff selection committee came out with its rankings it varied from the AP and coaches polls. The next week, both the coaches and AP polls reflected changes that brought them more in line with the selection committee rankings, for no apparent reason other than to conform. I think there is a herd mentality in all of these polls, and ESPN which completely dominates the narrative in college sports, has a great influence on what the writers and coaches believe about who should be ranked where. Heck, the head of the football selection committee admitted in an interview he got much of his information about teams from watching ESPN's College Gameday show.


CBiebel



Joined: 23 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 12/03/14 4:16 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Fighting Artichoke wrote:
Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?

Maybe if the two seem about even, the coaches prefer to reward the coach who has paid his/her dues for a longer period of time. Or perhaps the coaches value recent track record more than the media. Honestly, it doesn't matter, but it is fun to think about.


Or maybe ND has been more impressive this season.


Well, SOS aside...

Points allowed:

ND: 48.3 ppg
USCe: 45.5 ppg
(Small edge to USCe)

Points scored:
ND: 95.3 ppg
USCe: 80.3 ppg

(Large edge to ND)


beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/03/14 7:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Here's the current AP panel: Who votes


Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 12/03/14 10:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Here's the current AP panel: Who votes


Thank you for that, beknighted! Idea


Phil



Joined: 22 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: 12/03/14 10:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

PUmatty wrote:
Fighting Artichoke wrote:
Phil wrote:
Seton Hall got a lone vote last week, but a few more this week. Quite some time since they were in the conversation.

JMU gets quite a few votes from the coaches, just missing top 25, but almost none from writers. Wonder why?

Coacges liked ND over USC last week, but reiterated that this week. My snark theory is that USC makes a better story. Any legitimate reasons for the difference, or just happenstance?

Maybe if the two seem about even, the coaches prefer to reward the coach who has paid his/her dues for a longer period of time. Or perhaps the coaches value recent track record more than the media. Honestly, it doesn't matter, but it is fun to think about.


Or maybe ND has been more impressive this season.

I think that's the case, but that doesn't explain why writers prefer USC.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 12/03/14 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
Here's the current AP panel: Who votes


Thanks.

So there are five "national" media/TV people and 35 local sports writers on the AP panel. No national newspaper has a sports writer dedicated to WCBB. The New York Times' Harvey Araton occasionally writes about WCBB but not regularly.

The local sports writers I know cover some of the major sports of the local university(ies), perhaps a pro sport if one is near them, and perhaps some occasional high school sports. I doubt that the local AP poll writer in Lansing, Michigan, for example, is ever tasked with covering a national WCBB game such as Tennessee-Texas.

None of us knows how much a local sports writer, or a given WCBB coach, watches WCBB teams other than his/her own local team and its opponents. My guess as to which groups have the best overall feel for the women's basketball game would be, in descending order:

1. Long time and dedicated posters on WCBB sites such as RebKell.

2. The "national" media people on the AP panel.

3. The coaches on the coaches panel.

4. The local writers on the AP panel.
greatgator



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PostPosted: 12/03/14 11:50 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My understanding is that the SID is often delegated the responsibility for submitting a vote on behalf of the coach in the coaches polls and the coach usually is too busy to actually vote.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 12/03/14 12:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
beknighted wrote:
Here's the current AP panel: Who votes


Thanks.

So there are five "national" media/TV people and 35 local sports writers on the AP panel. No national newspaper has a sports writer dedicated to WCBB. The New York Times' Harvey Araton occasionally writes about WCBB but not regularly.

The local sports writers I know cover some of the major sports of the local university(ies), perhaps a pro sport if one is near them, and perhaps some occasional high school sports. I doubt that the local AP poll writer in Lansing, Michigan, for example, is ever tasked with covering a national WCBB game such as Tennessee-Texas.

None of us knows how much a local sports writer, or a given WCBB coach, watches WCBB teams other than his/her own local team and its opponents. My guess as to which groups have the best overall feel for the women's basketball game would be, in descending order:

1. Long time and dedicated posters on WCBB sites such as RebKell.

2. The "national" media people on the AP panel.

3. The coaches on the coaches panel.

4. The local writers on the AP panel.


Well, of course group 1 is the best. Wink

I think you have to divide the local writers into 2 groups. There are places like Connecticut and Tennessee where the writers have good reasons to pay more attention to the national situation than your typical beat writer. These writers probably are more likely to have sufficient information to vote intelligently than the coaches (and particularly the ones who delegate to the SIDs).

The others, well, I don't know. In pro sports, beat writers tend to have a decent perspective on the league as a whole, but that's partly because they see a lot of the teams in the league (actually, in the NBA and NHL they see *all* of the teams, and in MLB, they see all of the teams in one league and some of the teams in the other one), which isn't going to be the case in college basketball. You'd like to think they would pay attention if they agreed to vote in the poll, but you don't really know. I do think, as I noted above, that even for voters in this group, the ability to stay on the panel for more than a year lends some perspective that you might not find in the coaches poll. (Remember that the coaches poll is one coach per conference, and that the designated coach changes every year. I know that when Rutgers was in the Big East you had people like Phylis Mangina voting most years - I don't recall a year when Geno, Muffet or CVS was the BEast representative.)


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