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LitePal



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: 11/26/14 10:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Sorry to break it to you LSU fans, but it's 2019.

"Caldwell’s contract was lengthened by three years to June 2019. She did not receive a raise from her $350,000 annual compensation."

http://tigerrag.com/football/lsu-board-of-supervisors-approves-contract-extensions-for-joe-alleva-nikki-caldwell-beth-torina

I still remember a few years back when anti-UCLA posters (and yes, I'm looking at you Clay K) blathered that UCLA didn't care about womens basketball because they weren't willing to pony up the ridiculous salary to retain Coach Caldwell. Hindsight is 20/20 but UCLA still has a balanced athletic budget and a fresh take on the sport. And incidentally, UCLA has started posting impressive gains in attendance, well for UCLA at least.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 11/27/14 11:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LitePal wrote:
Sorry to break it to you LSU fans, but it's 2019.

"Caldwell’s contract was lengthened by three years to June 2019. She did not receive a raise from her $350,000 annual compensation."

http://tigerrag.com/football/lsu-board-of-supervisors-approves-contract-extensions-for-joe-alleva-nikki-caldwell-beth-torina

I still remember a few years back when anti-UCLA posters (and yes, I'm looking at you Clay K) blathered that UCLA didn't care about womens basketball because they weren't willing to pony up the ridiculous salary to retain Coach Caldwell. Hindsight is 20/20 but UCLA still has a balanced athletic budget and a fresh take on the sport. And incidentally, UCLA has started posting impressive gains in attendance, well for UCLA at least.


You are on the money on that one -- but UCLA then did pay Cori Close more than they had paid Kathy Olivier and now the Bruins are much closer to being a quality Pac-12 team.

Caldwell does not look like she was the answer, at UCLA or LSU, but my point was more about UCLA making the investment in women's basketball rather than who they invested in.

Somebody, it appears, made a better decision than I would have.



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ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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PostPosted: 11/27/14 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/27/14 2:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


Get over it, Art. A) It's November. B) We're still missing a couple of possibly key players. C) Unfortunately, Foster has pretty much always had Tennessee's number, from way back in the day when he was at Vandy. D) UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/27/14 3:17 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


LitePal



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 10:44 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

My point being that salaries for wbb are totally out of control and it becomes a coin flip as to who will be successful. The spending of ADs to land a "big name" is bound to occasionally backfire, especially when someone like Caldwell was selected because everyone drank the Kool-Aid.


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 10:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


If they had lost in February I might agree with you. In November, nah. You don't know the dynamics, so your opinion isn't worth that much anyway.



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ClayK



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 11:29 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

LitePal wrote:
My point being that salaries for wbb are totally out of control and it becomes a coin flip as to who will be successful. The spending of ADs to land a "big name" is bound to occasionally backfire, especially when someone like Caldwell was selected because everyone drank the Kool-Aid.


I think it's a little more than a coin flip, but I take your point.

Still, I think the odds of success in hiring a coach increase with the amount of resources available to potential coaches. In very few industries, if any, does paying less result in higher quality employees.



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beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 1:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


These things happen. #1 Duke lost to Toledo (a team that ended with a 100+ RPI) in November, 2002, and made the Final Four the same season.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 2:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


These things happen. #1 Duke lost to Toledo (a team that ended with a 100+ RPI) in November, 2002, and made the Final Four the same season.



Seriously? You have to go back 12 years to find another example? Are you suggesting that diminishes in the slightest the size of the egg that was laid. Indeed, that you have to reach that far to find one other example might make it bigger. Trying pretty hard to create an argument, aren't you.

As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 3:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


These things happen. #1 Duke lost to Toledo (a team that ended with a 100+ RPI) in November, 2002, and made the Final Four the same season.



Seriously? You have to go back 12 years to find another example? Are you suggesting that diminishes in the slightest the size of the egg that was laid. Indeed, that you have to reach that far to find one other example might make it bigger. Trying pretty hard to create an argument, aren't you.

As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


Good lord you're touchy. Yes, I mentioned one example from 12 years ago, mostly because I remembered it and because I didn't bother looking for any others. If you want a more recent example, Rutgers lost to RPI 135 Pepperdine in November 2006 (and later also to RPI 63 DePaul) and went to the national championship game. I'm not going to bother looking for more examples because I think these are sufficient to make the point, but I wouldn't be surprised to find another half-dozen or so equally bad losses by eventual Final Four teams in the last 10 or 15 years.

Teams like UConn last year don't lose these games, but sometimes good teams, and even very good teams, do lose to teams they should beat. This is a fairly unusual case, but it's actually not nearly as extreme as the two I mentioned - UTC was 29-4 last year, with an RPI of 47, and Foster is a pretty good coach, not some guy off a bus. I'd agree that teams with realistic Final Four aspirations *shouldn't* lose games like this, but it's simply untrue that they "never" do, or that a loss like this means that a team cannot make the Final Four.

And please note that I never said that it wasn't a bad loss. If I'd thought that, I can assure you I would have said so.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 3:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


The most recent example of a similar loss by a F4 team would probably be Louisville in 2008-09. They lost to Nevada at the end of November then proceeded all the way to the National Championship game.



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summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 3:39 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
summertime blues wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Is Holly Warlick's seat so well insulated she will never feel the heat, or is it getting warm after last night?

And where would they turn? Caldwell always seemed the favorite of those who disliked Holly, but I can't imagine that would be an upgrade.


UTC is not as much of a mid-major as some think; it's one of those programs like MTSU and JMU that's pretty much on the bubble and is capable of rising to the occasion...on occasion, and especially at home.


Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. UTC was not even competitive with Notre Dame just 5 days ago.


These things happen. #1 Duke lost to Toledo (a team that ended with a 100+ RPI) in November, 2002, and made the Final Four the same season.



Seriously? You have to go back 12 years to find another example? Are you suggesting that diminishes in the slightest the size of the egg that was laid. Indeed, that you have to reach that far to find one other example might make it bigger. Trying pretty hard to create an argument, aren't you.

As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


Good lord you're touchy. Yes, I mentioned one example from 12 years ago, mostly because I remembered it and because I didn't bother looking for any others. If you want a more recent example, Rutgers lost to RPI 135 Pepperdine in November 2006 (and later also to RPI 63 DePaul) and went to the national championship game. I'm not going to bother looking for more examples because I think these are sufficient to make the point, but I wouldn't be surprised to find another half-dozen or so equally bad losses by eventual Final Four teams in the last 10 or 15 years.

Teams like UConn last year don't lose these games, but sometimes good teams, and even very good teams, do lose to teams they should beat. This is a fairly unusual case, but it's actually not nearly as extreme as the two I mentioned - UTC was 29-4 last year, with an RPI of 47, and Foster is a pretty good coach, not some guy off a bus. I'd agree that teams with realistic Final Four aspirations *shouldn't* lose games like this, but it's simply untrue that they "never" do, or that a loss like this means that a team cannot make the Final Four.

And please note that I never said that it wasn't a bad loss. If I'd thought that, I can assure you I would have said so.


Art is *always* right. Didn't you know that by now?



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FS02



Joined: 19 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 5:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It just goes to show how good Geno is that his teams almost never have a let-down like that.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 5:50 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


The most recent example of a similar loss by a F4 team would probably be Louisville in 2008-09. They lost to Nevada at the end of November then proceeded all the way to the National Championship game.


That doesn't suprise me. I was surprised beknighted had to go back 12 years. Considering four FF teams probably play 30-40 such games each year, I expect it to happen occassionally, but once every five years or so doesn't alter the point at all.

It's a disaster. And all the "oh it's no big deal"s in the world don't change that. The denials are amusing though.

And of course I never said a team was completely out of the FF because of the loss. But teams claiming to be FF contenders should never lose these games.


mzonefan



Joined: 15 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 6:15 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Are the teams claiming to be contenders or are their fans?


summertime blues



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 6:33 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

mzonefan wrote:
Are the teams claiming to be contenders or are their fans?


Some fans. Some sportswriters. Some idiots.

I am a Tennessee fan, A VFL (Vol For Life) even and I don't think I'm that delusional. I think this team is pretty good. I think they don't have the bugs out yet. I think if they get them out and everybody gets and *stays* healthy, they can be E8 this year. MAYBE with good luck and a halfway decent bracket they might make it to the Final Four, but that seems more like a next-year proposition. We'll see. I also don't think there's anything all that shabby about the E8, regardless of what some nose-in-the-air types say.



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 6:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


The most recent example of a similar loss by a F4 team would probably be Louisville in 2008-09. They lost to Nevada at the end of November then proceeded all the way to the National Championship game.


That doesn't suprise me. I was surprised beknighted had to go back 12 years. Considering four FF teams probably play 30-40 such games each year, I expect it to happen occassionally, but once every five years or so doesn't alter the point at all.

It's a disaster. And all the "oh it's no big deal"s in the world don't change that. The denials are amusing though.

And of course I never said a team was completely out of the FF because of the loss. But teams claiming to be FF contenders should never lose these games.


Hmm.

ArtBest23 wrote:
Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to.


Not "claims," but "realistic aspirations." And not "rarely," but "never." In fact, it's still "never," even after you acknowledge that it happens "occasionally."


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 9:05 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
pilight wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
As I said, it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to. That Duke did it once in ancient history doesn't alter that a bit.


The most recent example of a similar loss by a F4 team would probably be Louisville in 2008-09. They lost to Nevada at the end of November then proceeded all the way to the National Championship game.


That doesn't suprise me. I was surprised beknighted had to go back 12 years. Considering four FF teams probably play 30-40 such games each year, I expect it to happen occassionally, but once every five years or so doesn't alter the point at all.

It's a disaster. And all the "oh it's no big deal"s in the world don't change that. The denials are amusing though.

And of course I never said a team was completely out of the FF because of the loss. But teams claiming to be FF contenders should never lose these games.


Hmm.

ArtBest23 wrote:
Actually it's one of those teams that a team with realistic aspirations of being a final four team would never lose to.


Not "claims," but "realistic aspirations." And not "rarely," but "never." In fact, it's still "never," even after you acknowledge that it happens "occasionally."


Really? You've sunk to parsing words to try to make some point, whatever it's supposed to be? You have recently taken to straining to try to start arguments with me over absolutely nothing at every opportunity. Why, I have no idea, but it's really silly on your part.


beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 9:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Really? You've sunk to parsing words to try to make some point, whatever it's supposed to be? You have recently taken to straining to try to start arguments with me over absolutely nothing at every opportunity. Why, I have no idea, but it's really silly on your part.


I dunno. Maybe it's because you made a bad argument, wouldn't back down when two different people pointed out it was bad (with examples), and instead acted as if you'd said something else. In my work, I am supposed to notice is stuff like that. It carries over to other parts of my life.

And, for what it's worth, in the UConn thread I mostly was agreeing with you on the substance. Tone, not so much.

We all have our styles of argument, and I'm fine with that. Each comes with its plusses and minuses. The big minus of making absolutist claims here - something never happens, for instance - is that there are a lot of people on this board who have very long memories or excellent research skills or well-developed and stupidly obsessive databases. (I have one of those, although in this case it didn't come into play.) If you don't like having people point out the exceptions to supposed rules, then don't say something always or never is true or always or never has happened unless you're really sure.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 10:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Really? You've sunk to parsing words to try to make some point, whatever it's supposed to be? You have recently taken to straining to try to start arguments with me over absolutely nothing at every opportunity. Why, I have no idea, but it's really silly on your part.


I dunno. Maybe it's because you made a bad argument, wouldn't back down when two different people pointed out it was bad (with examples), and instead acted as if you'd said something else. In my work, I am supposed to notice is stuff like that. It carries over to other parts of my life.

And, for what it's worth, in the UConn thread I mostly was agreeing with you on the substance. Tone, not so much.

We all have our styles of argument, and I'm fine with that. Each comes with its plusses and minuses. The big minus of making absolutist claims here - something never happens, for instance - is that there are a lot of people on this board who have very long memories or excellent research skills or well-developed and stupidly obsessive databases. (I have one of those, although in this case it didn't come into play.) If you don't like having people point out the exceptions to supposed rules, then don't say something always or never is true or always or never has happened unless you're really sure.


Or you could just read things like normal people and not parse words and take every word of conversational English in some absolute literal sense just to play your juvenile game of "gotcha". You must be a real blast at parties.


beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 11/28/14 10:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:
Or you could just read things like normal people and not parse words and take every word of conversational English in some absolute literal sense just to play your juvenile game of "gotcha". You must be a real blast at parties.


I really did laugh out loud when I saw this. I'm pretty sure you don't know why, but I can live with that.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 11/28/14 11:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Or you could just read things like normal people and not parse words and take every word of conversational English in some absolute literal sense just to play your juvenile game of "gotcha". You must be a real blast at parties.


I really did laugh out loud when I saw this. I'm pretty sure you don't know why, but I can live with that.


I expect it's because you think you "won" your little game. Congratulations.

Now why don't you go find someone else to play with and stop stalking me.


PUmatty



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PostPosted: 11/29/14 12:26 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ArtBest23 wrote:
Or you could just read things like normal people and not parse words and take every word of conversational English in some absolute literal sense just to play your juvenile game of "gotcha". You must be a real blast at parties.


I really did laugh out loud when I saw this. I'm pretty sure you don't know why, but I can live with that.


Trust me, everyone else knows why you are laughing though Wink


larmarch5



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PostPosted: 11/30/14 11:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

How big a fanbase did the Oregon Ducks have when they led the nation in scoring last year? I wonder what they're thinking THIS year. Ducks just lost to American University 72-64.

"Oregon struggled to score early and trailed 29-18 at halftime". 18 points in a half. I watched one game and you could see the players physically put the breaks on themselves in order to play the way Kelly Graves is demanding they play. They have certainly curtailed their offense, but I didn't see any uptake in their defense.

Is it egotistical for a coach to ignore his or her players' strengths in order to force them into his or her system?


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