| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
alcarp
Joined: 17 Nov 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Ohio
Back to top |
 Posted: 03/11/15 2:31 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| mzonefan wrote: |
| Marian took KU to a post-season tournament 16 out of her 30 years. I'd agree with PR Baller and call that "relatively successful". |
You can call it what you want. Personally I call it mediocre at best. The label is irrelevant. Regardless of what you call it, someone like Tsipis should be waiting for a job at a school with a much higher ceiling than that.
You know George Washington has been to the NCAA Tournament more times, and has advanced farther, than Kansas? Why should he make that move?
If you were the AD, how would you convince Tsipis that he has a bona fide opportunity to come in and build a national championship contender at Kansas? Because I expect that's what he's looking for at his next stop. What would you say to him. What history or background or facts would you provide him to convince him?
Or is this simply, "yeah, we stink, but we're in a P5 conference, we have a nice gym and practice facility, and we'll pay you more money." I hope there's more to say that that. But I doubt there is. |
Your definition of mediocre across most threads is applied pretty harshly. Success is success.
4 Sweet 16's in a school's program history is not mediocre.
Kansas is not a premiere job with a strong foundation but it's certainly not a mediocre one.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/11/15 2:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| alcarp wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| mzonefan wrote: |
| Marian took KU to a post-season tournament 16 out of her 30 years. I'd agree with PR Baller and call that "relatively successful". |
You can call it what you want. Personally I call it mediocre at best. The label is irrelevant. Regardless of what you call it, someone like Tsipis should be waiting for a job at a school with a much higher ceiling than that.
You know George Washington has been to the NCAA Tournament more times, and has advanced farther, than Kansas? Why should he make that move?
If you were the AD, how would you convince Tsipis that he has a bona fide opportunity to come in and build a national championship contender at Kansas? Because I expect that's what he's looking for at his next stop. What would you say to him. What history or background or facts would you provide him to convince him?
Or is this simply, "yeah, we stink, but we're in a P5 conference, we have a nice gym and practice facility, and we'll pay you more money." I hope there's more to say that that. But I doubt there is. |
Your definition of mediocre across most threads is applied pretty harshly. Success is success.
4 Sweet 16's in a school's program history is not mediocre.
Kansas is not a premiere job with a strong foundation but it's certainly not a mediocre one. |
4 sweet sixteens in 33 years, no elite eights, much less even a single final four. Making the tournament well less than half the time. For a major conference school.
People are claiming this is a desirable job for a hot rising coach. That this is "success." Yeah, plainly we have different definitions of "mediocre" and of "successful". I notice you didn't try to answer the question of how you would try to convince Tsipis to take the job if you were the Kansas AD.
|
|
Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5223
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/11/15 5:35 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Or Florida. All jobs that are likely to be open sooner rather than later and would be worth waiting for. |
Coach Butler received an extension today that goes through 2019! Surprising to me.
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/11/15 6:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Durantula wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Or Florida. All jobs that are likely to be open sooner rather than later and would be worth waiting for. |
Coach Butler received an extension today that goes through 2019! Surprising to me. |
What? Wow, I am surprised with that as well.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
|
tfan
Joined: 31 May 2010
Posts: 9627
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/11/15 11:19 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
4 sweet sixteens in 33 years, no elite eights, much less even a single final four. Making the tournament well less than half the time. For a major conference school.
People are claiming this is a desirable job for a hot rising coach. That this is "success." Yeah, plainly we have different definitions of "mediocre" and of "successful". I notice you didn't try to answer the question of how you would try to convince Tsipis to take the job if you were the Kansas AD. |
I would mention to Tsipis how much money he would make at Kansas versus wherever he is now. Most people are influenced by large amounts of money. But I think your point is that he could derail his career by going to Kansas and then failing. Possible, but if the money jump is large enough - and he lives like he is doing at wherever, then he can invest that money in some rental houses and get financial independence and then drop back down to the level he was at (or below if necessary) and coach if he needs to in order to keep busy.
I don't think recruits care much what a program was doing 10 years ago. They mostly look at recent records to see how good their future teammates are. If a team hasn't been good recently they aren't gonna be a top choice . But there is the possibility to build the program over time and then become a destination for top recruits. Oregon State was never any good and now under a new coach they won the Pac-12 regular season in his fifth year.
If a mid-major coach only wants to go to a BCS school with a winning tradition they may have a long wait. Coaches at winning schools will normally stay till retirement and by that time they often have someone sitting on their bench who they will recommend for the job.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 9:31 am ::: |
Reply |
|
Who's assuming that Tsipis is even interested, or has been offered? Cart before the horse much?
I wonder if Melanie Balcomb's chair at Vandy isn't getting a bit warm. They didn't finish very well this year and there have been 4 transfers since summer, including her two prized Canadian twin towers this week.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 9:34 am ::: |
Reply |
|
tfan said: If a mid-major coach only wants to go to a BCS school with a winning tradition they may have a long wait. Coaches at winning schools will normally stay till retirement and by that time they often have someone sitting on their bench who they will recommend for the job.
And that replacement, if hired, then gets a ration of crap like no other before they even take the floor, and nothing they do is ever good enough. (at least in some people's eyes)
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 11:11 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
Who's assuming that Tsipis is even interested, or has been offered? Cart before the horse much?
. |
Nobody "assumed" any such thing. He's just been used as an example. Read the thread. This is what was said:
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Kansas is probably one of those jobs that you hope a talented rising star is smart enough not to take.
It's probably a career dead end. |
I'm not disagreeing, but why? They spent money on Henricksen.
I don't know anything about facilities, but I'm guessing they're pretty good. Good conference, etc. |
It's not the money. I'm just not convinced you can win there.
Take as an example Tsipis at GW. At some point he's going to get offered a lot more money than GW can pay to go to a major conference school. I would hope he would be patient and wait for a job at a better program where he has the opportunity to build a real winning program. It will come.
A place like Purdue for example is a school with a winning tradition in WBB in a state that produces a lot more major prospects. That would present a genuine opportunity to turn around and build something with unlimited potential. And it will be open soon enough. Heck, Rutgers might be open in the next couple of years. Or UVA. Or Florida. All jobs that are likely to be open sooner rather than later and would be worth waiting for. I don't believe Kansas presents that kind of opportunity. I think it has a pretty low ceiling and is a dead end job. And salary and facilities have nothing to do with it. No tradition, and you just can't change geography. No real in-state recruiting base, and not a place to which top national recruits are likely to be attracted. If you're a rising star like Tsipis with a good pedigree and track record who has a solid mid major job, I hope you're patient and wait for an appropriate opportunity where you can actually win. |
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 11:35 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| And you've beaten it to death. But I'm not going to get in a flame war with you over it, it's too nice a day for that.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 11:37 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| What is he making at GW? Anybody know?
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 11:43 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| What is he making at GW? Anybody know? |
I don't know the number, although the school newspaper wrote last year
"The department also spends big when it wants to lure the right person to Foggy Bottom. For instance, GW's Jonathan Tsipis is the highest paid of any A-10 women's basketball head coach."
I expect it's still well less than what KS or any P5 school could pay if they wanted too. Which is why I said I hoped he would wait for the best oportunity and not just jump at a higher paycheck.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 12:08 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
There are a lot of reasons coaches stay at schools that might pay them less, rather than going somewhere they could earn a much bigger paycheck. It's not always about the money. On the men's side, Shaka Smart of VCU is always, always being talked up as a replacement when a big name coach leaves. So far he hasn't taken the bait, no matter how much money is offered, and he doesn't seem likely to any time soon. Here's why: http://wtvr.com/2014/12/05/shaka-smarts-staying-at-vcu/
There are very likely similar reasons why women's coaches don't leave their mid-majors, or even majors, for other schools, even if the paycheck is bigger.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 12:17 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Smart's making $1.5 million and has a contract through 2023.
He's not exactly starving.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 03/12/15 1:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| He's been offered more, and that before he got the raise and extension. I do happen to know that.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 7:39 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
There are a lot of reasons coaches stay at schools that might pay them less, rather than going somewhere they could earn a much bigger paycheck. It's not always about the money. On the men's side, Shaka Smart of VCU is always, always being talked up as a replacement when a big name coach leaves. So far he hasn't taken the bait, no matter how much money is offered, and he doesn't seem likely to any time soon. Here's why: http://wtvr.com/2014/12/05/shaka-smarts-staying-at-vcu/
There are very likely similar reasons why women's coaches don't leave their mid-majors, or even majors, for other schools, even if the paycheck is bigger. |
As I've said before, there are extremely few coaches won't move up to a better job when the right one comes along, no matter how much they talk about staying put at a mid major.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/reports--texas-hires-shaka-smart-to-lead-longhorns-031104984.html
Really, coaches in that position just should keep their mouths shut because when he gives an interview about staying put because of some deep seated anguish over being abandoned by his father he just ends up looking like a total phony when he inevitably jumps at the money and opportunity, just like everyone else.
We had a team-bonding experience where we spoke about our backgrounds and everything, VCU junior Melvin Johnson told Parrish. Coach spoke last, and he told us about his father leaving him, and it made us get even more attached to him because the majority of us grew up just like him. We were like, Wow. We had never heard that story before.
So much for the reluctance to abandon your players. Guess the big paycheck will pay for lots of couch time.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11150
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 9:40 am ::: |
Reply |
|
There is never a good time to leave, at any level, in terms of relationships with players and staff. There are always commitments and emotions involved.
At the same time, though, everyone has their own criteria of what makes them happy, what acceptable goals are, and how best to balance personal needs with prior commitments.
In the end, staying somewhere because it's "the right thing to do" even though you're unhappy is very likely not going to work out for anyone. Any leader needs to be committed to the situation, and whatever cracks there might be in the leader's commitment will spread throughout the program much faster than most expect.
_________________
Oį¹ TÄre TuttÄre Ture SvÄhÄ
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 10:58 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
There is never a good time to leave, at any level, in terms of relationships with players and staff. There are always commitments and emotions involved.
At the same time, though, everyone has their own criteria of what makes them happy, what acceptable goals are, and how best to balance personal needs with prior commitments.
In the end, staying somewhere because it's "the right thing to do" even though you're unhappy is very likely not going to work out for anyone. Any leader needs to be committed to the situation, and whatever cracks there might be in the leader's commitment will spread throughout the program much faster than most expect. |
I agree with this. I think it's like every other job. You have to balance job satisfaction, friends, comfort, support, stability, risk, opportunity, money, ambition, uprooting family, and other personal considerations. Different people assign different weights to various factors, and in the end it's a very personal choice. And I think in most cases money is down the list. For coaches, I think the opportunity to win may be the single most important consideration.
My point is that coaches shouldn't give interviews about how devoted they are to their current place. Especially things like how it's based on a highly personal sense of abandonment by their father. It makes them look really phony when they turn around and say "never mind, forget what I said, a better opportunity has come along and I'm outta here."
|
|
pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66920
Location: Where the action is
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 11:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I think in most cases money is down the list. For coaches, I think the opportunity to win may be the single most important consideration. |
In college there's a pretty high correlation between how much a school pays its coaches and how good the opportunity to win is.
_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 11:19 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| pilight wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I think in most cases money is down the list. For coaches, I think the opportunity to win may be the single most important consideration. |
In college there's a pretty high correlation between how much a school pays its coaches and how good the opportunity to win is. |
Yes and no. But it happens all the time that a coach may be offered double his current salary to take over at a big school where the opportunity may not be all that great and says no, but then is offered the same or even less at another big time school were the opportunity is seen as really good and takes it. Good coaches know perfectly well they will get other offers for just as much money at schools offering better opportunities to succeed.
As a recent example, all the money in the world hasn't gotten Alabama a new men's basketball coach because it's seen as a high risk job with potentially limited upside. The coaches they are targeting all know they're going to have better opportunities. But Texas was seen as an excellent opportunity to produce a winner and got its first choice.
Often big schools who want to improve their program actually offer more money than schools that are already successful because they have to compensate for being less attractive.
|
|
patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
Location: Culver City, CA
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 11:51 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| My point is that coaches shouldn't give interviews about how devoted they are to their current place. Especially things like how it's based on a highly personal sense of abandonment by their father. It makes them look really phony when they turn around and say "never mind, forget what I said, a better opportunity has come along and I'm outta here." |
Yup.
|
|
CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18371
Location: Phoenix
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 1:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| My point is that coaches shouldn't give interviews about how devoted they are to their current place. Especially things like how it's based on a highly personal sense of abandonment by their father. It makes them look really phony when they turn around and say "never mind, forget what I said, a better opportunity has come along and I'm outta here." |
Except the italicized excerpt you quoted above was from a player, not a coach.
But in general, you have a point.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/03/15 3:21 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| My point is that coaches shouldn't give interviews about how devoted they are to their current place. Especially things like how it's based on a highly personal sense of abandonment by their father. It makes them look really phony when they turn around and say "never mind, forget what I said, a better opportunity has come along and I'm outta here." |
Except the italicized excerpt you quoted above was from a player, not a coach.
But in general, you have a point. |
Did you read the entire article? That would help.
|
|
Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5223
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/05/15 2:50 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I don't know how reputable the source is but on Twitter women's basketball hoop scoop posts that Jim Jabir is a front runner for the Kansas job.
Has any job been filled yet? The speed at which the men's jobs are filled is very fast. I mean the programs with no coaches could get behind on recruiting and the current players might get anxious waiting and ask for a release. There is a scouting period this month where all the AAU teams play and the longer you wait the less time you have to really interview candidates for assistant coaching jobs.
|
|
Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
Posts: 5223
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/07/15 4:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Some more coaching rumors:
@wbballhoopscoop
UNF: Lance White assistant at Florida State on campus interviewing today.
@wbballhoopscoop
Utah: I have found out that it is NOT one of those three that I mentioned. Stay tuned. Surprise hire
The 3 options that are referred to in the tweet above are the Hawaii Head Coach, Fresno State Head Coach, and Pacific Head Coach
@wbballhoopscoop
UNT: Strong possibility that Jalie Mitchell the assistant at Texas is now front runner for job. Former player and assistant coach there.
@wbballhoopscoop
FIU: hearing that Marlin Chin will be hired and announced. Stay tuned. Chin is with Maryland as an assistant.
@wbballhoopscoop
Portland State: from whoopdirt: mike Meeks, Cody Butler, Ryan McCarthy are finalists for the job.
|
|
|
|
