| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
 Posted: 09/07/14 6:01 pm ::: |
Reply  |
|
| AJMMs wrote: |
That's why I wonder why Geno went ahead with that phone call if there was any question of it possibly being a violation.
|
I wonder too. Most coaches err on the side of caution and just don't do it if it might be a violation.
And some coaches obviously take a different approach to the rules.
|
|
PhillyCat
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 226
Back to top |
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8225
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 7:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| hyperetic wrote: |
You're right. I don't understand the letter of NCAA rules and bylaws (I don't think an army of Harvard educated lawyers could get it all) |
| PhillyCat wrote: |
| Based on his exhaustive analysis of the relevant NCAA rules I'm guessing glennmac is a lawyer. |
I don't like practicing law but I have three law degrees, one from hyperetic's army school, and a millenium ago passed four different state bar exams.
I'd say the NCAA Bylaws, which comprise about 430 pages of small print, are not as difficult as the IRS Code but are probably more difficult than the Copyright and Patent Acts.
I have always tried to elucidate the NCAA recruiting rules objectively when these violation stories hit the media, but not many posters on WBB boards are ever interested in what the rules actually say. I've also never found a non-lawyer WBB journalist who's particularly interested in the rules either, and I've contacted a few over the years. It's too technical for superficial and fast-flowing media cycles.
I haven't been called glennmac in over 12 years. That was my first screen name. You must be a blast from the past, PhillyCat. |
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16354
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 7:22 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| AJMMs wrote: |
That's why I wonder why Geno went ahead with that phone call if there was any question of it possibly being a violation.
|
I wonder too. Most coaches err on the side of caution and just don't do it if it might be a violation.
And some coaches obviously take a different approach to the rules. |
Blame the compliance officer. If someone whose job it is to know whether it is a violation says it is not a violation, why should he doubt that?
That compliance officer may be on thin ice.
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 7:37 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| AJMMs wrote: |
That's why I wonder why Geno went ahead with that phone call if there was any question of it possibly being a violation.
|
I wonder too. Most coaches err on the side of caution and just don't do it if it might be a violation.
And some coaches obviously take a different approach to the rules. |
Blame the compliance officer. If someone whose job it is to know whether it is a violation says it is not a violation, why should he doubt that?
That compliance officer may be on thin ice. |
I agree. As I have mentioned before, it's not like he just made the call and is saying "I didn't know" he asked and was told it's not a violation, that's why I think it sucks for him this situation has turned out the way it did.
|
|
PhillyCat
Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 226
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 8:30 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GEF34 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| AJMMs wrote: |
That's why I wonder why Geno went ahead with that phone call if there was any question of it possibly being a violation.
|
I wonder too. Most coaches err on the side of caution and just don't do it if it might be a violation.
And some coaches obviously take a different approach to the rules. |
Blame the compliance officer. If someone whose job it is to know whether it is a violation says it is not a violation, why should he doubt that?
That compliance officer may be on thin ice. |
I agree. As I have mentioned before, it's not like he just made the call and is saying "I didn't know" he asked and was told it's not a violation, that's why I think it sucks for him this situation has turned out the way it did. |
But it doesn't really suck that much. It's a secondary violation which most schools commit on occasion and which rarely become public. It was Geno's decision to make this public when responding to questions about Mo'ne at a gathering with the local CT media. The vast majority of public opinion (and that of those who write about college sports) sympathizes with Geno which happens much more infrequently than secondary recruiting violations.
|
|
GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 14109
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 9:34 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PhillyCat wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| AJMMs wrote: |
That's why I wonder why Geno went ahead with that phone call if there was any question of it possibly being a violation.
|
I wonder too. Most coaches err on the side of caution and just don't do it if it might be a violation.
And some coaches obviously take a different approach to the rules. |
Blame the compliance officer. If someone whose job it is to know whether it is a violation says it is not a violation, why should he doubt that?
That compliance officer may be on thin ice. |
I agree. As I have mentioned before, it's not like he just made the call and is saying "I didn't know" he asked and was told it's not a violation, that's why I think it sucks for him this situation has turned out the way it did. |
But it doesn't really suck that much. It's a secondary violation which most schools commit on occasion and which rarely become public. It was Geno's decision to make this public when responding to questions about Mo'ne at a gathering with the local CT media. The vast majority of public opinion (and that of those who write about college sports) sympathizes with Geno which happens much more infrequently than secondary recruiting violations. |
I don't mean suck in the world is ending kind of way, but it sucks because he did what he was suppose to do to make sure he could make the call. Of course it's most likely he just sent an email or asked someone to send an email, but at the same time he did what he was suppose to do.
|
|
Rocky Top7
Joined: 26 Jul 2014
Posts: 32
Location: Ms. Gulf Coast
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/07/14 10:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Good grief why all the bickering over this ??? We all agree that this was a nice thing for him to do and whoever reported this needs to get a life. A slap on the wrist is all it will amount to so let's move on. I just hope she does not see or hear about all of this. I don't think it would make her feel better but ruin the call from someone she looks up to. Imo........
_________________
It's not how you play the game its if you win or lose...
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11132
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 9:23 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| If it wasn't UConn, this thread would have been 15 comments long ... at most.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 2:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| hyperetic wrote: |
But my point moreso than anything is that the NCAA has tried so hard to legislate, control, and micromanage how coaches and students interact that its, at least to me, has lost a bit of touch with common sense. |
The NCAA doesn't "legislate, control or micromanage" anyone. The member schools regulate themselves. The schools themselves vote on these rules, and all of the schools agree to abide by the rules that the majority vote to adopt.
This really isn't a difficult concept. |
Well explain to me oh knowledgeable one, if the NCAA is made up of member schools the regulate themselves, what is it that they call themselves? NCAA right? So if its not the organization made up of member schools called the NCAA with its board of directors that are the final decision makers of rules then how is order kept and who are those people handing out the sanctions? Apparently you and I are getting caught up in semantics. The member schools are the NCAA that make the rules and police those rules, correct? Who was that that just found Geno guilty of a recruiting violation? |
No "board of directors" vote on the rules. The entire group of Div I member schools vote on the Division I rules. And they all - including UConn - agree to abide by them. It really doesn't matter if some fans think they're silly or trivial. A majority of the schools believed they were appropriate and necessary. And if a majority ever thinks they're unecessary, they can change them. |
If the NCAA had any credibility at all, it would be a lot easier to take this seriously. As it is, rules are violated on a daily basis, in most cases because they are both really unenforceable and counter to common sense (you can buy a prospective athlete an apple but not a bagel, or something like that), and then punishments are handed out that seem to vary wildly from case to case. |
Just more silliness pretending that the NCAA is some independant alien third party. You're just saying that 300+ schools themselves have no credibility and act contrary to common sense and their own self interest. You've made clear ad nauseum how much you despise the NCAA but that's simply ridiculous. And if the schools agreed with you they'd change it.
These seemingly trivial rules only exist because SOME coaches constantly try to push the limits and weasil around the more obvious ones. |
Sorry Art, but the NCAA IS a third-party, independent body. It is an association, but it files independent tax returns, has its own employees, and enters into its own contracts.
In fact they paid Mr. Emmert $1.7 million in 2011 per their tax returns:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/07/10/ncaa-mark-emmert-salary-million-tax-return/2505667/
Where you are correct though, is they act on the suggestions and requests of their populace. My understanding the rule in question came as a WBCA request in the first place, but that is unconfirmed.
Listen, there are people that take written and oral "rules" as gospel; on a more extreme level we have all seen people who believe the Bible is to be followed word for word. I'm not even sure whoever turned this in was out to "get Geno" because it clearly was not something that would have an impact on him or UConn.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 3:32 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| dtsnms wrote: |
[
Sorry Art, but the NCAA IS a third-party, independent body. It is an association, but it files independent tax returns, has its own employees, and enters into its own contracts.
In fact they paid Mr. Emmert $1.7 million in 2011 per their tax returns:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/07/10/ncaa-mark-emmert-salary-million-tax-return/2505667/
Where you are correct though, is they act on the suggestions and requests of their populace. My understanding the rule in question came as a WBCA request in the first place, but that is unconfirmed.
Listen, there are people that take written and oral "rules" as gospel; on a more extreme level we have all seen people who believe the Bible is to be followed word for word. I'm not even sure whoever turned this in was out to "get Geno" because it clearly was not something that would have an impact on him or UConn. |
What's your point? Sure. It's a trade association. It has a legal existence. That doesn't mean it's "independent" of its membership. And, as you no doubt are aware, its legal existence or tax obligation is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The only relevant point is that this and all the rules are not created by "the NCAA". The staff doesn't enact them. Emmert doesn't create them. The Board doesn't enact them. All those employees you talk about have absolutely nothing to do with the enactment of these rules. The rules are adopted by a vote of the entire membership of the affected Division. The schools themselves vote on the rules.
And I'm sure you also know that your whole gospel/Bible thing is equally specious and silly. It doesn't matter if the rule is trivial, stupid, or downright brain dead. Every school has agreed to abide by those rules. Yes, word for word. Don't like the rule? Then go through the process and get it changed. But until then, UConn and every other member school is obligated to follow the rules. Not just the ones it finds convenient. Not just the ones Geno deems important. All of them.
|
|
dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 18815
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 3:51 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| dtsnms wrote: |
[
Sorry Art, but the NCAA IS a third-party, independent body. It is an association, but it files independent tax returns, has its own employees, and enters into its own contracts.
In fact they paid Mr. Emmert $1.7 million in 2011 per their tax returns:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/07/10/ncaa-mark-emmert-salary-million-tax-return/2505667/
Where you are correct though, is they act on the suggestions and requests of their populace. My understanding the rule in question came as a WBCA request in the first place, but that is unconfirmed.
Listen, there are people that take written and oral "rules" as gospel; on a more extreme level we have all seen people who believe the Bible is to be followed word for word. I'm not even sure whoever turned this in was out to "get Geno" because it clearly was not something that would have an impact on him or UConn. |
What's your point? Sure. It's a trade association. It has a legal existence. That doesn't mean it's "independent" of its membership. And, as you no doubt are aware, its legal existence or tax obligation is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The only relevant point is that this and all the rules are not created by "the NCAA". The staff doesn't enact them. Emmert doesn't create them. The Board doesn't enact them. All those employees you talk about have absolutely nothing to do with the enactment of these rules. The rules are adopted by a vote of the entire membership of the affected Division. The schools themselves vote on the rules.
And I'm sure you also know that your whole gospel/Bible thing is equally specious and silly. It doesn't matter if the rule is trivial, stupid, or downright brain dead. Every school has agreed to abide by those rules. Yes, word for word. Don't like the rule? Then go through the process and get it changed. But until then, UConn and every other member school is obligated to follow the rules. Not just the ones it finds convenient. Not just the ones Geno deems important. All of them. |
See Art, here's why I don't engage in discussions with you anymore.
You are entitled to your position and opinion but you immediately call contrary o different thoughts "specious and silly."
Well, this "specious and silly" guy is outta here.
|
|
ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 4:04 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| dtsnms wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| dtsnms wrote: |
[
Sorry Art, but the NCAA IS a third-party, independent body. It is an association, but it files independent tax returns, has its own employees, and enters into its own contracts.
In fact they paid Mr. Emmert $1.7 million in 2011 per their tax returns:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/07/10/ncaa-mark-emmert-salary-million-tax-return/2505667/
Where you are correct though, is they act on the suggestions and requests of their populace. My understanding the rule in question came as a WBCA request in the first place, but that is unconfirmed.
Listen, there are people that take written and oral "rules" as gospel; on a more extreme level we have all seen people who believe the Bible is to be followed word for word. I'm not even sure whoever turned this in was out to "get Geno" because it clearly was not something that would have an impact on him or UConn. |
What's your point? Sure. It's a trade association. It has a legal existence. That doesn't mean it's "independent" of its membership. And, as you no doubt are aware, its legal existence or tax obligation is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. The only relevant point is that this and all the rules are not created by "the NCAA". The staff doesn't enact them. Emmert doesn't create them. The Board doesn't enact them. All those employees you talk about have absolutely nothing to do with the enactment of these rules. The rules are adopted by a vote of the entire membership of the affected Division. The schools themselves vote on the rules.
And I'm sure you also know that your whole gospel/Bible thing is equally specious and silly. It doesn't matter if the rule is trivial, stupid, or downright brain dead. Every school has agreed to abide by those rules. Yes, word for word. Don't like the rule? Then go through the process and get it changed. But until then, UConn and every other member school is obligated to follow the rules. Not just the ones it finds convenient. Not just the ones Geno deems important. All of them. |
See Art, here's why I don't engage in discussions with you anymore.
You are entitled to your position and opinion but you immediately call contrary o different thoughts "specious and silly."
Well, this "specious and silly" guy is outta here. |
If you disagree with my characterization, then please explain any slight relevance of (1) the NCAA filing a tax return or Emmert's salary, or (2) how people view the Bible, to anything I or anyone else has said in this thread.
Otherwise you're just annoyed that the total red herrings you tossed out have washed up on the beach.
If you addressed the actual issues, we could have an actual rational discussion.
|
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 5:56 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
The question is who did run to the NCAAs about UConn's secondary violation? The NCAAs mentioned it was someone inside the AAC.
I'd say it was Temple or Tulane. These coaches knew the rules from day one. Any speculation?
R-
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15729
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
|
Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 4040
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/08/14 8:36 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
The question is who did run to the NCAAs about UConn's secondary violation? The NCAAs mentioned it was someone inside the AAC.
I'd say it was Temple or Tulane. These coaches knew the rules from day one. Any speculation?
R- |
There is no way it was Temple. The head coach, Tonya Cardoza, was an assistant coach for Geno for 14 years!
|
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/09/14 2:04 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| Think I did not know that, dude? I knew her before she worked at UConn for 14 seasons. She played at Virginia Cavaliers where I rooted for more than 30 years. Duh! She is now the Coach at Temple. If she can't beat Geno, she'll lose her job at Temple. 14 years or not, she knew the rules to get Temple going or not. I do see that in her and Lisa Stockton.
|
|
purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/09/14 7:14 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
| She played at Virginia Cavaliers where I rooted for more than 30 years. |
She played for 30 years? What?
|
|
Fighting Artichoke
Joined: 12 Dec 2012
Posts: 4040
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/09/14 7:16 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
| Think I did not know that, dude? I knew her before she worked at UConn for 14 seasons. She played at Virginia Cavaliers where I rooted for more than 30 years. Duh! She is now the Coach at Temple. If she can't beat Geno, she'll lose her job at Temple. 14 years or not, she knew the rules to get Temple going or not. I do see that in her and Lisa Stockton. |
First off, not everyone shares your abject hatred of Geno. Second, there is no way that Cardoza needs to beat UConn to keep her job at Temple. It would help her greatly if she could better compete against the other members of the AAC (8-8 against other members, 8-10 overall in conference), but no one expects Temple to beat UConn.
|
|
Queenie
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
Posts: 18028
Location: Queens
Back to top |
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/09/14 1:12 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
Fine, fine, making fun of someone whom his first language is not English. Way cool. I'm saying that I root for Virginia Cavaliers for 30 years. I know Tonya Cardoza when she first came to Virginia as a freshman. In fact, she was at Virginia for 5 years, not 4 years. She was academically ineligible for one season while Dawn Staley & Tammi Reiss was sophomore and took the team to their first Final Four in Norfolk. I knew that the reason why Tonya went to UVa is because of Geno - Geno used to assist Debbie when he recruited Tonya. They have a strong bond - which explained why Tonya quickly accepted the AC position at UConn for 14 years. I don't think Tonya expected to be in the same league with UConn eventually. She knew that she has to do well at Temple from now on. It is dog eats dog world. Get over with it.
R-
|
|
Martini Man
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 4399
Location: Canada
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/26/14 6:13 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
Fine, fine, making fun of someone whom his first language is not English. Way cool. I'm saying that I root for Virginia Cavaliers for 30 years. I know Tonya Cardoza when she first came to Virginia as a freshman. In fact, she was at Virginia for 5 years, not 4 years. She was academically ineligible for one season while Dawn Staley & Tammi Reiss was sophomore and took the team to their first Final Four in Norfolk. I knew that the reason why Tonya went to UVa is because of Geno - Geno used to assist Debbie when he recruited Tonya. They have a strong bond - which explained why Tonya quickly accepted the AC position at UConn for 14 years. I don't think Tonya expected to be in the same league with UConn eventually. She knew that she has to do well at Temple from now on. It is dog eats dog world. Get over with it.
R- |
Ridor/xxxxxxxxxx, go back to playing with your little action figures and leave the big boy talk to the grown ups please.
_________________
Cheers Mate!!
|
|
ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/26/14 7:14 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Martini Man, once again you continue to disrespect my wishes so I reported you to the moderators.
|
|
dfineguy
Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 201
Location: Bay Area Califonia
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/26/14 8:04 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ucbart wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
This thread is kinda funny. Why someone is considered an a-hole for reporting an NCAA violation that they knew about is beyond me. The reality is that this is a minor violation and amounts to basically a slap on the wrist.
And for whoever ranted about calling their own child...I just have to lol. Come on now.
I am continually amazed at the almost rabid protection of Geno/UConn that fans have. I swear he could commit a felony and be caught on camera doing so and many fans would find some way to justify his actions and blame the cops while referring to them as a-holes for upholding the law.
Just so as not to confuse the situation, that was a hypothetical and not meant in any way to compare his phone call & the NCAA interpretation vs the situation above. Again, not making a comparison or saying it was a bad thing he did. |
I agree that this will amount to nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but it seems as though Geno is under attack more than any other WCBB coach ever has been, by a long shot. Now, some of this is his own doing certainly, because of the way he speaks his mind. With that being said though, he is also attacked for things that no other coach would even be looked at for. While this is technically a violation, I think it's a rather ridiculous one. Geno has never seen her play basketball, she is from Philly, as is he and he is an icon to her. It's a great gesture and shows what kind of person Geno really is. I want to know which school turned him in! The funny thing is this, if Mo'ne is good enough to play basketball at UCONN, this will fuel the fires of his haters even more in 6 years.
So Purduefanatic, if your Sharon Versyp was attacked this much, you would defend her too. |
And he/she did. About 6 weeks ago, I made some kind quasi-disparaging remarks about Ms. Versyp who I find dull and uninspired as a head coach. P-fanatic came off the wall about . Literally accused me of almost everything but kidnapping and torturing 3 blind pre-school children. Some folks have a hard time seeing that they are just like UConn fans when their own fave coach is knocked. I'd love to go back and see what NBA fans said about Red Auerbach in the 60's. I'll bet people accused St. John of the Baby Blue of all kinds of bad acts. Success begets envy and envy begets jealousy. And fans get really ugly and nasty behind jealousy.
-30-
_________________
From the Desk of the Cat in the Hat
|
|
Martini Man
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Posts: 4399
Location: Canada
Back to top |
| Posted: 09/26/14 9:10 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ridor wrote: |
| Martini Man, once again you continue to disrespect my wishes so I reported you to the moderators. |
Once again, who cares.
_________________
Cheers Mate!!
|
|
|
|
A little slow on the 'uptake' there, dtsmns? 
At least you tried, with civility.