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purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 06/24/14 9:53 am    ::: USC to offer 4-year scholarships Reply Reply with quote

So, to add some more mess to the transfer situation and the overall well-being of student-athletes, USC has announced that they will now offer 4-year scholarships to all athletes in the revenue sports of football, men's basketball and women's basketball. This is set to go into effect on July 1st for all current & future student-athletes.

http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/college-sports/story/_/id/11123599/usc-trojans-offer-four-year-scholarships-basketball-football

I have no idea what is going to happen with that. What happens if a USC student-athlete wants to transfer out of a 4-year scholarship?

I don't object to 4-year scholarships but this creates a whole other set of issues, especially in the world of transferring.


CalwbbFan



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 10:18 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I would think it's intended to make a student-athlete's situation more secure in guaranteeing their scholarship.

It would be my guess that individuals would still be able to leave if they choose as the whole thing seems designed to undercut some of the recent criticisms of NCAA and for-profit sports.

USC has the (athletic) endowment to do this. It may also provide a recruiting edge for them.

I think women's basketball was included because they needed to include a women's sport. From what I can tell, most programs do the right thing in WCBB when a player can no longer play due to injury or health condition. I'm not sure that's been the case for football and men's basketball.


Ex-Ref



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 10:23 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Good question. I guess we'll have to wait for the fine print to come out on this.

I think that they would be shooting themselves in the foot if there were additional restrictions on transferring. I can't imagine many student-athletes would chose USC if that is the case. Especially if they have been paying any attention to the KSU/Romero situation.

Then the question is, what's in it for USC? Just the warm, fuzzy feeling of doing something right?

Will be interesting to see if it helps or hurts their recruiting.


Phil



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

It sounds like a good move, and far more than warm, fuzzies. It is the perfect example of a benefit which costs the giver little, and provides a tangible benefit. I predict other schools will follow, in the same way that airline frequent flier programs grew. USC will still be able to point out they were first, although, like frequent flyer programs, that won't carry much weight.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 2:37 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There's no additional restrictions on the student. It's just a four year promise by the school to renew the scholarship each year. It is 100% to the benefit of the student. And it's long overdue.

This isn't new. Quite a few schools have been doing it since the NCAA began allowing it a year or so ago. Prior to that, schools had for a long time been prohibited from promising a four year scholarship.

Ohio St and other Big 10 schools did it last January for the class of 2014 football signees. [url] http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7528614/some-big-ten-offering-4-year-scholarships[/url] I believe the Big 10 has been considering requiring four year scholarships conference wide in all sports.

If it happened every where, it would stop coaches like Nick Saban from their annual "roster management" in football where they sign 10 over the limit and force 10 kids out the door each year.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 3:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CalwbbFan wrote:
From what I can tell, most programs do the right thing in WCBB when a player can no longer play due to injury or health condition. I'm not sure that's been the case for football and men's basketball.


The problem isn't medical situations. Most schools continue the scholarships of players who have to quit because of injury or medical condition, and coaches don't care because those players become "non counters", i.e., under the rules they don't count against scholarship limits.

The problem is coaches who in effect give one year tryouts by annually oversigning, and then, if the player doesn't turn out to be quite as good as hoped, they get kicked to the curb to make room for the next excessively large class of freshmen. It's an annual ritual in SEC football in particular.

The other big area where this happens is the newly hired coach who refuses to renew the scholarships of returning juniors and seniors so that he or she can bring in a big group of freshmen that "fit his/her system".

What this rule does is help ensure that if you hold up your end of the bargain by working out, practicing diligently, staying out of trouble, and staying academically eligible, that you'll keep your scholarship even if you aren't as good as the coach thought you would be when you were offered that scholarship before your HS junior season even began. The recruiting and development risks fall on the school where they belong rather than on the student. If you work hard, you get your scholarship for four years even if you never play a minute.

Not all coaches agreed with the change. As I understand it the rule change is actually temporary and has to be voted on again because there was a lot of opposition. The Big12 voted against the rule change. Indeed, the opponents fell only 2 votes short of overriding this. The Pittsburgh Post Gazette did an article on this a while back and included these quotes:

"Though Indiana football coach Kevin Wilson said he would never not renew a scholarship if an athlete had underperformed or was injured, he said he didn't want to give his athletes the "carte blanche" he believes would come with a four-year scholarship.

At Penn State, football coach Bill O'Brien said he does not give multiyear scholarships. Though he said he wouldn't cut a player for athletic reasons, he said he likes the one-year renewable scholarships "because that's another chance for me to bring them in and talk to them about where they are in the program."

Last year, then-Tennessee football coach Derek Dooley went a step further. Dooley said he wanted the ability to take away a scholarship if someone didn't perform on his team, comparing it to a university's ability to take away an academic scholarship if a student didn't perform academically.

"You have these contracts," he said at a press conference. "It's called quid pro quo. We give you this. You give us that. But if they don't give us this and we decide not to give them this, then it's the worst thing you can do. I'm still struggling to understand that issue.'"


(Neither Dooley nor O'Brien are still employed at those schools, by the way.)

Until 1973, most scholarships were for four years. In 1973 the schools voted to outlaw 4 year scholarships so they could get rid of athletic "underperformers." And not only did those schools not want to do it themselves, they didn't want anyone else to get a competitive advantage by doing it, so it was outlawed for everyone. For 40 years, it was a recruiting violation to promise a four year scholarship.


Phil



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 4:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wilson makes a good point. What if a student athlete accepts, then decides that basketball isn't for them. To what extent can the school do anything. Does the student have to simply show up for practice, and can dog it. Or maybe not even that? With the annual renewable, they know that have to perform or lose the scholarship.

I don't have a sense of how many players come in as scholarship players and simply decide to give up basketball. It happens, but how often? Will that happen more often if this system is implemented? What happens if they have interest in basketball and volleyball, get a 4 year basketball scholarship, then decide to play volleyball?


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 4:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Wilson makes a good point. What if a student athlete accepts, then decides that basketball isn't for them. To what extent can the school do anything. Does the student have to simply show up for practice, and can dog it. Or maybe not even that? With the annual renewable, they know that have to perform or lose the scholarship.

I don't have a sense of how many players come in as scholarship players and simply decide to give up basketball. It happens, but how often? Will that happen more often if this system is implemented? What happens if they have interest in basketball and volleyball, get a 4 year basketball scholarship, then decide to play volleyball?


I think coaches have plenty of means of sending a message. When you end up running the stadium stairs every day while your teammates are running plays to get ready for the next day, I suspect you'll either shape up or quit. I really don't think "just going through the motions" is a significant problem. These players had to be highly motivated just to get to this level. And I don't know how it's worded in the paperwork, but I believe that if you don't do the required work, then your scholarship can be revoked for cause.

There are already rules about what your scholarship counts against if you switch sports or play two sports. I don't think those rules change or need to change.


colt13



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 5:20 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Does this mean full scholarships? I know that in baseball and softball they give partial ones. Also curious on what it means for walk-ons and transfers.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/24/14 5:29 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

colt13 wrote:
Does this mean full scholarships? I know that in baseball and softball they give partial ones. Also curious on what it means for walk-ons and transfers.


I believe the ONLY thing that was changed was to remove the prohibition on giving four year scholarships rather than the "one year renewable" that was in place for 40 years.

Walk ons are still walk ons. Transfers get treated the same as they were before. And in sports allowing partial scholarships, I'm pretty certain there are still partial scholarships.

I assume, but don't know, that partial scholarships can now also be four years, and if you are playing softball, for example, and get a half or quarter scholarship, you could now be promised a half or quarter scholarship for a full four years, rather than just for a single year with a possibility of renewal.

Don't know if anyone gives a multi year scholarship to a walk on who earns one, say after two years. It would probably be a bad idea to require that, because frequently walk ons in football are given a scholarship for a year with everyone understanding it's because they have an available one this year under the limit and might not next year. They all know that if they fill up with recruited players next year, then it won't be renewed. If it had to be multi-year, the coach would probably just hold on to it and not give it to the walk on at all. If I was a walk on, I'd rather have one year free than none.


purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 06/24/14 10:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ArtBest23 wrote:

I think coaches have plenty of means of sending a message. When you end up running the stadium stairs every day while your teammates are running plays to get ready for the next day, I suspect you'll either shape up or quit.


Or complain and accuse the coach of mental and physical abuse.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 1:55 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

CalwbbFan wrote:

I think women's basketball was included because they needed to include a women's sport. From what I can tell, most programs do the right thing in WCBB when a player can no longer play due to injury or health condition. I'm not sure that's been the case for football and men's basketball.


Women's basketball was included because they wanted men's basketball to be included. Men's basketball is the main reason many schools treat women's basketball better than other women's sports and some men's sports.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 1:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
Wilson makes a good point. What if a student athlete accepts, then decides that basketball isn't for them. To what extent can the school do anything. Does the student have to simply show up for practice, and can dog it. Or maybe not even that? With the annual renewable, they know that have to perform or lose the scholarship.

I don't have a sense of how many players come in as scholarship players and simply decide to give up basketball. It happens, but how often? Will that happen more often if this system is implemented? What happens if they have interest in basketball and volleyball, get a 4 year basketball scholarship, then decide to play volleyball?


If the person doesn't want to play basketball, why would they stay on the team?


ball4life



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 6:08 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some schools already offer 4 year scholarships. Richmond for example has for years and basically this doesn't guarantee a spot on the team, it just guarantees your education to be covered.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 7:39 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ball4life wrote:
Some schools already offer 4 year scholarships. Richmond for example has for years and basically this doesn't guarantee a spot on the team, it just guarantees your education to be covered.


I would love to read about what they have been doing, how it is structured/worded, etc...do you happen to have a link or know where that information is?


ball4life



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I don't have a link and didn't read the contract but in short per coach and two current players (Richmond), the scholarship is 4 year guaranteed and even if the athlete decides not to continue playing basketball the scholarship will be honored for school.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:13 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ball4life wrote:
I don't have a link and didn't read the contract but in short per coach and two current players (Richmond), the scholarship is 4 year guaranteed and even if the athlete decides not to continue playing basketball the scholarship will be honored for school.


Interesting. I would love to know the stipulations. I mean, I can't imagine a school/athletic department is going to want a bunch of former athletes on scholarship that all of a sudden decided they didn't want to still play their sport but still get to go to school for free. I mean, we are looking at hundreds of scholarship athletes at these schools and even if 5/year decide to quit, you are carrying at least an extra 20 scholarships every year. I can't imagine any school, especially a non-Big 5 school, is going to want to spend that kind of money every year and getting nothing back on it.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ball4life wrote:
ISome schools already offer 4 year scholarships. Richmond for example has for years and basically this doesn't guarantee a spot on the team, it just guarantees your education to be covered.


It could have been their practice to renew the one-year scholarships, as it was at many schools, but for the past 40 years it could not have been promised.

Since 1973, the NCAA Bylaws provided:

"15.3.3.1 One-Year Period. If a students athletics ability is considered in any degree in awarding financial aid, such aid shall neither be awarded for a period in excess of one academic year nor for a period less than one academic year"

Effective August 1, 2012, this passage was amended to read:

15.3.3.1 Period of Award. If a students athletics ability is considered in any degree in awarding financial aid, such aid shall neither be awarded for a period less than one academic year nor for a period that would exceed the students five-year period of eligibility

So now a school can actually grant a four year scholarship, which they could not do before.


ball4life



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:15 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Give me some specific questions and I will ask about it. In the mean time I will try to obtain a copy of the agreement.


ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:

Interesting. I would love to know the stipulations.


Here are the current rules regarding cancellation of a scholarship. Of note, it does allow cancellation if the student withdraws from the sport or makes only a "token" appearance at practice, and does not allow cancellation based on athletic ability, team success, injury, or any other athletic reason.

"15.3.4.2 Reduction or Cancellation Permitted. Institutional financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability may be reduced or canceled during the period of the award if the recipient: (Revised: 1/11/94, 1/10/95)
(a) Renders himself or herself ineligible for intercollegiate competition;
(b) Fraudulently misrepresents any information on an application, letter of intent or financial aid agreement (see Bylaw 15.3.4.2.3) ;
(c) Engages in serious misconduct warranting substantial disciplinary penalty (see Bylaw 15.3.4.2.4) ; or
(d) Voluntarily (on his or her own initiative) withdraws from a sport at any time for personal reasons; however, the recipients financial aid may not be awarded to another student-athlete in the academic term in which the aid was reduced or canceled. A student-athletes request for written permission to contact another four-year collegiate institution regarding a possible transfer does not constitute a voluntary withdrawal. (Revised: 1/10/92, 1/11/94, 1/10/95, 1/9/96, 12/13/05, 9/11/07)

15.3.4.2.1 Timing of Reduction or Cancellation. Any reduction or cancellation of aid during the period of the award may occur only after the student-athlete has been provided an opportunity for a hearing per Bylaw 15.3.2.3. (Adopted: 5/15/07, Revised: 4/23/08 )

15.3.4.2.2 Nonathletically Related Conditions. An institutional financial aid agreement may include nonathletically related conditions (e.g., compliance with academics policies or standards, compliance with athletics department rules or policies) by which the aid may be reduced or canceled during the period of the award. (Adopted: 4/23/08 )

15.3.4.2.3 Fraudulent Misrepresentation. If a student-athlete is awarded institutional financial aid on the basis of declaring intention to participate in a particular sport by signing a letter of intent, application or tender, action on the part of the grantee not to participate (either by not reporting for practice or after making only token appearances as determined by the institution) would constitute fraudulent misrepresentation of information on the grantees application, letter of intent or financial aid agreement and would permit the institution to cancel or reduce the financial aid. (Revised: 1/11/94)

15.3.4.2.4 Misconduct. An institution may cancel or reduce the financial aid of a student-athlete who is found to have engaged in misconduct by the universitys regular student disciplinary authority, even if the loss-of-aid requirement does not apply to the student body in general. (Revised: 1/11/94)

15.3.4.2.5 Release of Obligation to Provide Athletically Related Financial AidOne-Year Award. Before becoming a counter for an academic year pursuant to a one-year grant-in-aid, if a prospective student-athlete or student-athlete is awarded institutional financial aid unrelated to athletics that is of equal or greater value than his or her signed award of athletically related financial aid, the prospective student-athlete or student-athlete may, on his or her initiative, release the institution of its obligation to provide the athletically related financial aid. (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11, Revised: 10/27/11 effective 8/1/12; awards may be executed before 8/1/12)

15.3.4.3 Reduction or Cancellation Not Permitted. Institutional financial aid based in any degree on athletics ability may not be reduced or canceled during the period of its award: (Adopted: 1/16/93, Revised: 1/11/94, 12/11/07)
(a) On the basis of a student-athletes athletics ability, performance or contribution to a teams success;
(b) Because of an injury, illness, or physical or mental medical condition (except as permitted pursuant to Bylaw 15.3.4.2); or (Revised: 1/14/08 )
(c) For any other athletics reason.

15.3.4.3.1 Athletically Related Condition Prohibition. An institution may not set forth an athletically related condition (e.g., financial aid contingent upon specified performance or playing a specific position) that would permit the institution to reduce or cancel the student-athletes financial aid during the period of the award if the conditions are not satisfied. (Adopted: 1/16/93, Revised: 1/11/94)

15.3.4.3.2 Decrease Not Permitted. An institution may not decrease a prospective student-athletes or a student-athletes financial aid from the time the prospective student-athlete or student-athlete signs the financial aid award letter until the conclusion of the period set forth in the financial aid agreement, except under the conditions set forth in Bylaw 15.3.4.2. (Adopted: 1/11/94, Revised: 4/2/03 effective 8/1/03) "


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 8:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am familiar with those stipulations...I am NOT familiar with the stipulations that the Richmond athletic department has to have in place so that this type of thing doesn't get abused. I have a feeling they were just told that their scholarships would be renewed each year, similar to what happens across the country at pretty much all schools.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 9:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

There are more than a few players whose goal is to get a scholarship, and then once they reach college, they kick back, basketball-wise, and focus on getting their degree.

Of that group, many are simply burned out from playing year-round since age 11, and others just don't like the basketball program (sometimes even if they play a lot). But it's a job, after all -- that scholarship is worth quite a bit -- so they punch the clock at practice and offseason workouts.

This, of course, is the flip side of colleges taking advantage of student-athletes. The system can be gamed by both groups, but obviously the colleges have the ability to do more. As pointed out, a focused coach can certainly run a single young woman (or two) off the team with sustained physical and mental pressure that does not qualify as abuse in any sense of the word.



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ball4life



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 10:00 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Okay got some more clarification. It is not every sport it is Women's and I believe Men's basketball. The signing letter lists each school year separately for 4 years. Currently there is one player that is on scholarship that decided after her freshman year that she didn't want to play because of lack of playing time and she hasn't played for 2 years lives in the paid women's basketball townhouses. Another basketball player decided after her freshman year that she wanted to concentrate on her academics (pre law I believe) and didn't play for 3 years she just graduated. This is at Richmond, I am trying to remember the other school I hear that does this. Sounded like the each 1 year scholarship is given at the time of signing.


beknighted



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PostPosted: 06/26/14 10:25 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
There are more than a few players whose goal is to get a scholarship, and then once they reach college, they kick back, basketball-wise, and focus on getting their degree.

Of that group, many are simply burned out from playing year-round since age 11, and others just don't like the basketball program (sometimes even if they play a lot). But it's a job, after all -- that scholarship is worth quite a bit -- so they punch the clock at practice and offseason workouts.

This, of course, is the flip side of colleges taking advantage of student-athletes. The system can be gamed by both groups, but obviously the colleges have the ability to do more. As pointed out, a focused coach can certainly run a single young woman (or two) off the team with sustained physical and mental pressure that does not qualify as abuse in any sense of the word.


There was a guy in my high school who was a really good football player, and also pretty smart and, frankly, poor. He got into Princeton, hurt his knee during preseason practice, and quit the team. Of course, Princeton doesn't award athletic scholarships, so he kept his full ride all the way through college. (Like I said, pretty smart.) Not quite the same situation, of course, but analogous.

And, yes, the exception rather than the rule.


GEF34



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PostPosted: 06/27/14 1:06 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
ClayK wrote:
There are more than a few players whose goal is to get a scholarship, and then once they reach college, they kick back, basketball-wise, and focus on getting their degree.

Of that group, many are simply burned out from playing year-round since age 11, and others just don't like the basketball program (sometimes even if they play a lot). But it's a job, after all -- that scholarship is worth quite a bit -- so they punch the clock at practice and offseason workouts.

This, of course, is the flip side of colleges taking advantage of student-athletes. The system can be gamed by both groups, but obviously the colleges have the ability to do more. As pointed out, a focused coach can certainly run a single young woman (or two) off the team with sustained physical and mental pressure that does not qualify as abuse in any sense of the word.


There was a guy in my high school who was a really good football player, and also pretty smart and, frankly, poor. He got into Princeton, hurt his knee during preseason practice, and quit the team. Of course, Princeton doesn't award athletic scholarships, so he kept his full ride all the way through college. (Like I said, pretty smart.) Not quite the same situation, of course, but analogous.

And, yes, the exception rather than the rule.


I'm not quite sure I understand the analogy, because since it wasn't an athletic scholarship wouldn't he not need to be an athlete to receive the scholarship in the first place.


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