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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/28/14 11:03 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Individuals and families, I feel, should be able to make decisions based on what they feel is best for them. They should be able to do so without the threat of loss of eligibility for athletics or drama or music or any kind of activity connected to the educational institutions involved.

Lacking such justification, the restraint on individual freedom seems completely arbitrary and should be condemned by any who value the ability of individuals to make those choices that they believe are best for them and their families.


In the first and last paragraph you make reference to people being able to do what is in the best interest of themselves. What about the impact that their actions may have on others? Does the benefit to a single student/family outweigh the effects it may have on everyone else? Maybe 1 kid transferring into a school doesn't make a big difference, but if it goes up to 5 or 10 and that happens every year, it can cause a big ripple effect on many things, especially budgetary issues, class size, etc.

If my kid goes to a school and then loses an opportunity to do something extracurricular because a kid from the district over decides to transfer in, then haven't my "rights" been violated and is my kid now not being denied an opportunity she has every right to have? It's one thing if the family moves into the area, but a completely different thing when they are not within the educational district guidelines that were created by each municipality. I mean, I'm a resident of the community, pay my taxes that help support the local school but a kid from a town or 2 over comes in and denies my kid an educational opportunity? I think not. If they want what we have, then go to your own school board and get it done. The whole "mine just isn't good enough so I'm gonna go take yours" just doesn't fly or sit well with me. Fix what's in your own house.

Maybe we could extend your freedom of movement to all these landowners. I mean, I would love to live on the banks of the lake nearby but I can't because I'm restricted due to some land ownership thing. Can I claim "eminent domain" like the government and just build a house right there?

There are rules, regulations, laws, etc that limit what people can/can not do in society. Nobody has the freedom to just do whatever they want, whenever they want, everyone else be damned. Are there too many? Yes, I think our country is way overgoverned (don't get me started on this ridiculous health care reform nightmare) but the fact is, there are rules by which we all have to live, regardless of how they impact our own personal situations.


POLOinMD



Joined: 02 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: 06/28/14 1:51 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Individuals and families, I feel, should be able to make decisions based on what they feel is best for them. They should be able to do so without the threat of loss of eligibility for athletics or drama or music or any kind of activity connected to the educational institutions involved.

Lacking such justification, the restraint on individual freedom seems completely arbitrary and should be condemned by any who value the ability of individuals to make those choices that they believe are best for them and their families.


In the first and last paragraph you make reference to people being able to do what is in the best interest of themselves. What about the impact that their actions may have on others? Does the benefit to a single student/family outweigh the effects it may have on everyone else? Maybe 1 kid transferring into a school doesn't make a big difference, but if it goes up to 5 or 10 and that happens every year, it can cause a big ripple effect on many things, especially budgetary issues, class size, etc.

If my kid goes to a school and then loses an opportunity to do something extracurricular because a kid from the district over decides to transfer in, then haven't my "rights" been violated and is my kid now not being denied an opportunity she has every right to have? It's one thing if the family moves into the area, but a completely different thing when they are not within the educational district guidelines that were created by each municipality. I mean, I'm a resident of the community, pay my taxes that help support the local school but a kid from a town or 2 over comes in and denies my kid an educational opportunity? I think not. If they want what we have, then go to your own school board and get it done. The whole "mine just isn't good enough so I'm gonna go take yours" just doesn't fly or sit well with me. Fix what's in your own house.

Maybe we could extend your freedom of movement to all these landowners. I mean, I would love to live on the banks of the lake nearby but I can't because I'm restricted due to some land ownership thing. Can I claim "eminent domain" like the government and just build a house right there?

There are rules, regulations, laws, etc that limit what people can/can not do in society. Nobody has the freedom to just do whatever they want, whenever they want, everyone else be damned. Are there too many? Yes, I think our country is way overgoverned (don't get me started on this ridiculous health care reform nightmare) but the fact is, there are rules by which we all have to live, regardless of how they impact our own personal situations.


Oh excuse me, but I didn't realize your district was in a different country. I thought we were all from the "UNITED STATES", but I guess your country has to do what's best for it's citizens. Looks like we arent that "UNITED" after all. I just wish my country would stop sending aid your way. I'm sure with all that those super taxes you pay, you guys could be completely self sufficient. IJS


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 06/28/14 3:28 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Individuals and families, I feel, should be able to make decisions based on what they feel is best for them. They should be able to do so without the threat of loss of eligibility for athletics or drama or music or any kind of activity connected to the educational institutions involved.

Lacking such justification, the restraint on individual freedom seems completely arbitrary and should be condemned by any who value the ability of individuals to make those choices that they believe are best for them and their families.


In the first and last paragraph you make reference to people being able to do what is in the best interest of themselves. What about the impact that their actions may have on others? Does the benefit to a single student/family outweigh the effects it may have on everyone else? Maybe 1 kid transferring into a school doesn't make a big difference, but if it goes up to 5 or 10 and that happens every year, it can cause a big ripple effect on many things, especially budgetary issues, class size, etc.

If my kid goes to a school and then loses an opportunity to do something extracurricular because a kid from the district over decides to transfer in, then haven't my "rights" been violated and is my kid now not being denied an opportunity she has every right to have? It's one thing if the family moves into the area, but a completely different thing when they are not within the educational district guidelines that were created by each municipality. I mean, I'm a resident of the community, pay my taxes that help support the local school but a kid from a town or 2 over comes in and denies my kid an educational opportunity? I think not. If they want what we have, then go to your own school board and get it done. The whole "mine just isn't good enough so I'm gonna go take yours" just doesn't fly or sit well with me. Fix what's in your own house.

Maybe we could extend your freedom of movement to all these landowners. I mean, I would love to live on the banks of the lake nearby but I can't because I'm restricted due to some land ownership thing. Can I claim "eminent domain" like the government and just build a house right there?

There are rules, regulations, laws, etc that limit what people can/can not do in society. Nobody has the freedom to just do whatever they want, whenever they want, everyone else be damned. Are there too many? Yes, I think our country is way overgoverned (don't get me started on this ridiculous health care reform nightmare) but the fact is, there are rules by which we all have to live, regardless of how they impact our own personal situations.


So if your daughter is up for the lead in a play, but someone transfers in from another school and gets the part, is that unfair? Or the lead vocal in the chorus? Or the drum major in the band?

How are those different? Why only sports?

And of course we have rules, but they should be applied fairly. Why should athletes and their families be singled out? The transfer student may be the valedictorian (the family wanted better classes) and get the scholarship your won might have had. Why is that any different than a wide receiver or a point guard?

What no one wants to address, at least so far, is the disparity in the way transfers are regulated. Athletes have regulations; other students have none. Why? And most important, why is that fair? Why are those rules in place and not others?



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/29/14 7:53 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

POLOinMD wrote:


Oh excuse me, but I didn't realize your district was in a different country. I thought we were all from the "UNITED STATES", but I guess your country has to do what's best for it's citizens. Looks like we arent that "UNITED" after all. I just wish my country would stop sending aid your way. I'm sure with all that those super taxes you pay, you guys could be completely self sufficient. IJS



What?


purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: 06/29/14 8:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:


In the first and last paragraph you make reference to people being able to do what is in the best interest of themselves. What about the impact that their actions may have on others? Does the benefit to a single student/family outweigh the effects it may have on everyone else? Maybe 1 kid transferring into a school doesn't make a big difference, but if it goes up to 5 or 10 and that happens every year, it can cause a big ripple effect on many things, especially budgetary issues, class size, etc.

If my kid goes to a school and then loses an opportunity to do something extracurricular because a kid from the district over decides to transfer in, then haven't my "rights" been violated and is my kid now not being denied an opportunity she has every right to have? It's one thing if the family moves into the area, but a completely different thing when they are not within the educational district guidelines that were created by each municipality. I mean, I'm a resident of the community, pay my taxes that help support the local school but a kid from a town or 2 over comes in and denies my kid an educational opportunity? I think not. If they want what we have, then go to your own school board and get it done. The whole "mine just isn't good enough so I'm gonna go take yours" just doesn't fly or sit well with me. Fix what's in your own house.

Maybe we could extend your freedom of movement to all these landowners. I mean, I would love to live on the banks of the lake nearby but I can't because I'm restricted due to some land ownership thing. Can I claim "eminent domain" like the government and just build a house right there?

There are rules, regulations, laws, etc that limit what people can/can not do in society. Nobody has the freedom to just do whatever they want, whenever they want, everyone else be damned. Are there too many? Yes, I think our country is way overgoverned (don't get me started on this ridiculous health care reform nightmare) but the fact is, there are rules by which we all have to live, regardless of how they impact our own personal situations.


So if your daughter is up for the lead in a play, but someone transfers in from another school and gets the part, is that unfair? Or the lead vocal in the chorus? Or the drum major in the band?

How are those different? Why only sports?

And of course we have rules, but they should be applied fairly. Why should athletes and their families be singled out? The transfer student may be the valedictorian (the family wanted better classes) and get the scholarship your won might have had. Why is that any different than a wide receiver or a point guard?

What no one wants to address, at least so far, is the disparity in the way transfers are regulated. Athletes have regulations; other students have none. Why? And most important, why is that fair? Why are those rules in place and not others?


You immediately assumed I was referring to a spot on an athletic team...nowhere in my post did I say that. I specifically said extracurricular opportunity. And yes, if the kid didn't live in our school zone/district and transferred in just because he/she wanted to be the lead in the play we were doing, I would have a huge problem if it took away an opportunity for my child. Again, how about trying to get your own school system to improve instead of just trampling over other people to get what you think you want or need?

How do you know they are treated differently? I know of one case where someone was going to transfer to a school and it had to do with the quality of their marching band that the fact many of their students were able to go on and play in a college band. They were denied because they didn't meet the requirements. That is the only case I know of and it was probably 15 years ago.

That said, I don't have an interest in marching bands, theatre, etc so I don't really hear those stories...my guess is the majority of people in here don't either. There could be hundreds of stories across the country about kids denied a transfer to a different high school and none of us would ever know it unless we were extremely close to the situation. Who is going to report it in the paper, on the web, twitter, etc? And even if someone does, none of us are going to see it because we aren't in that world. The fact is that sports are covered to a much, much larger extent than any of those other activities and thus we all hear about stories similar to Homewood-Flossmoor.

The way transfers are regulated most likely has a lot to do with the various athletic associations in each state. I know the IHSAA here in Indiana has had their fair share of controversy when it comes to transfers in and around Indianapolis when it comes to boy's basketball. Are there a corresponding associations that oversees marching bands, theatre, etc? I have no idea but there probably is some sort of organization that oversees those areas. Do people complain about transfers or report about transfers for those activities? Probably not. So, that is probably your answer.


ClayK



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: 06/29/14 8:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I am heavily involved at the high school level and have been for many years.

There is no regulation of any extracurricular activity except athletics.

So again, if drama students can transfer, why can't athletes? Is drama more or less important?

And if a debate student can transfer to a school with a stronger debate team that will increase his chances of getting into the school of choice, why shouldn't she? But if she's a basketball player, she can't.



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purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/29/14 8:49 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
I am heavily involved at the high school level and have been for many years.

There is no regulation of any extracurricular activity except athletics.

So again, if drama students can transfer, why can't athletes? Is drama more or less important?

And if a debate student can transfer to a school with a stronger debate team that will increase his chances of getting into the school of choice, why shouldn't she? But if she's a basketball player, she can't.


Heavily involved at the HS level in California right? But how familiar are you with regulations in other states? It's not the same across this country. In Indiana, marching bands are HUGE and they are governed by the ISSMA (Indiana State School Music Association). Students that transfer schools are governed by the transfer regulations that the respective school boards have created and those regulations I'm sure vary quite a bit across this nation.

A big problem that has developed with athletics is the whole summer AAU situation. You suddenly have kids from all these different schools/communities coming to play with each other during the summertime and then decide maybe they could play with each other during the school year. Then they, their coaches and some parents decide they're going to try to figure out a way to make it happen, regardless of what the rules are because what my kid wants, they get and what I want, I get. Obviously those rules don't apply to my kids. That stuff doesn't happen with marching bands, drama kids, math team, chess team, etc.


ClayK



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PostPosted: 06/29/14 8:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)

Why should athletics and athletes be singled out at the high school level?

Why should athletics and athletes be singled out at the collegiate level?



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GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: 06/29/14 11:23 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)

Why should athletics and athletes be singled out at the high school level?

Why should athletics and athletes be singled out at the collegiate level?


A mixed bowl of fruit.

I don't think drama, math and debate students can transfer just for that reason in most high school districts in this country -- the People's Unaffordable Republic of Goldenstate notwithstanding.

In any event, none of those academic students are on scholarships in the public school systems. Money invested in students via scholarships changes the situation at the college level.

Most high school districts, both public and parochial, don't want athletes transferring out of their home districts because they have concluded that athletic soliciting and recruiting is detrimental and not controllable without restrictions on residence and transfers.

All college athletes are on full scholarships. The schools have invested a lot of money in recruiting the athletes and paying them all that scholarship money. They want a return on that investment. Because all schools are in the same boat on this, they thus recognize their shared interest in deterring athletic transfers other than for some sort of good cause. As a result, all schools collectively enact conference and national (NCAA) rules restricting athletic transfers and scholarship availability.

How is this different from the scholarship math or drama students at a particular college? Can they transfer ad libitum and take their funding sources with them, uninterrupted?

I knew a physics major who had four academic scholarships that paid his entire college education. One was from a national source, and probably could have been transferred to another university. The second was from the State of New York, and had to be used at a school within that state. The third was from the City of New York, and had to be used at a school within that city. The fourth scholarship was from Columbia University, which obviously could only be used at Columbia.

Because three of those four scholarships were not transferable, that physics student was financially unable to transfer from Columbia to the University of California at Santa Barbara -- where he had heard all sorts of jazz about coeds who would rouge their knees and roll their stockings down.

Of course, this physics student could have transferred almost ad libitum, just as any college athlete can. The real issue for the guy, however -- as it is for scholarship athletes -- was whether the financial support could follow him without interruption.

Was the physics student discriminated against or treated unfairly because he couldn't "transfer" three of his four financial sources to any school he wanted, whenever he wanted? I think not. The sources of those college funds had very rational, if self-interested, reasons for conditioning the money on attendance at particular institutions.

Did scholarship physics students then, or now, need a union? I think not. Funny thing, Santa Barbara may now have a better physics department than Columbia, even as time dims all that coed jazz.


Last edited by GlennMacGrady on 06/30/14 12:48 am; edited 1 time in total
pilight



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PostPosted: 06/29/14 11:36 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

ClayK wrote:
Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)


College debaters are subject to transfer rules under the American Forensic Association.

The rule states...

Quote:
Students are free to transfer from one college to another so long as the transfer is not the result of an unscrupulous effort by one school to cause the student to transfer to it in order to receive financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensics competition.
A. "Unscrupulous" is used here to refer to cases where the college that the student transfers to initiates contact with the student and makes an offer of compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition if the student transfers.
B. The Educational Development and Practices Committee will determine if a student's transfer is the result of unscrupulous recruiting efforts based on the facts of the individual case. It is the burden of the school alleging unscrupulous recruiting to provide proof to the Educational Development and Practices Committee that the school that the student transfers to initiated the contact with the student and the decision to transfer was motivated by the promise of financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition.



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beknighted



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 6:46 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)


College debaters are subject to transfer rules under the American Forensic Association.

The rule states...

Quote:
Students are free to transfer from one college to another so long as the transfer is not the result of an unscrupulous effort by one school to cause the student to transfer to it in order to receive financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensics competition.
A. "Unscrupulous" is used here to refer to cases where the college that the student transfers to initiates contact with the student and makes an offer of compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition if the student transfers.
B. The Educational Development and Practices Committee will determine if a student's transfer is the result of unscrupulous recruiting efforts based on the facts of the individual case. It is the burden of the school alleging unscrupulous recruiting to provide proof to the Educational Development and Practices Committee that the school that the student transfers to initiated the contact with the student and the decision to transfer was motivated by the promise of financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition.


Okay, pilight, I'm impressed that you found that.

I've been involved in college forensics for a long time (I sat on the board that runs one of the national competitions for a while), and I can say that transfers because of forensics are very, very rare.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 7:10 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)


College debaters are subject to transfer rules under the American Forensic Association.

The rule states...

Quote:
Students are free to transfer from one college to another so long as the transfer is not the result of an unscrupulous effort by one school to cause the student to transfer to it in order to receive financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensics competition.
A. "Unscrupulous" is used here to refer to cases where the college that the student transfers to initiates contact with the student and makes an offer of compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition if the student transfers.
B. The Educational Development and Practices Committee will determine if a student's transfer is the result of unscrupulous recruiting efforts based on the facts of the individual case. It is the burden of the school alleging unscrupulous recruiting to provide proof to the Educational Development and Practices Committee that the school that the student transfers to initiated the contact with the student and the decision to transfer was motivated by the promise of financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition.


Kind of makes my point that there are probably rules governing transfers of students (both HS & college) for most things but we just don't know about them because we aren't directly involved in those activities.

Good find pilight.


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66773
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PostPosted: 06/30/14 7:26 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
pilight wrote:
ClayK wrote:
Again, I ask: Why are drama students allowed to transfer? Math students? Debate students? (On the ISSMA site, transfers and transfer rules are not mentioned ... they are prominent on state athletic association sites.)


College debaters are subject to transfer rules under the American Forensic Association.

The rule states...

Quote:
Students are free to transfer from one college to another so long as the transfer is not the result of an unscrupulous effort by one school to cause the student to transfer to it in order to receive financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensics competition.
A. "Unscrupulous" is used here to refer to cases where the college that the student transfers to initiates contact with the student and makes an offer of compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition if the student transfers.
B. The Educational Development and Practices Committee will determine if a student's transfer is the result of unscrupulous recruiting efforts based on the facts of the individual case. It is the burden of the school alleging unscrupulous recruiting to provide proof to the Educational Development and Practices Committee that the school that the student transfers to initiated the contact with the student and the decision to transfer was motivated by the promise of financial compensation and/or other rewards for forensic competition.


Okay, pilight, I'm impressed that you found that.

I've been involved in college forensics for a long time (I sat on the board that runs one of the national competitions for a while), and I can say that transfers because of forensics are very, very rare.


I debated in college, a long time ago. Our coach left my senior year and I considered transferring. The rule has not changed since the late 1980's.

As a side note to those who know the college debate scene, my coach at Mercer my first three years was Bill Slagle, who left an indelible mark on the activity at the school he left us for (Samford University). I would not have guessed he had that in him.



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Last edited by pilight on 06/30/14 11:16 am; edited 1 time in total
beknighted



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 10:48 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:
beknighted wrote:


Okay, pilight, I'm impressed that you found that.

I've been involved in college forensics for a long time (I sat on the board that runs one of the national competitions for a while), and I can say that transfers because of forensics are very, very rare.


I debated in college, a long time ago. Our coach left my senior year and I considered transferring. The rule has not changed since the late 1980's.

As a side note to those who know the college debate scene, my coach at Mercer my first three years was Bill Slagle, who left an indelible mark on the activity at the school he left us for (Samford University). I would not have guessed he had that in him.


I did some debate (mostly NDT), but my focus was on individual events, which was easier given resource issues at Rutgers (as in, no debate coach). I ended up as District VIII chair for the AFA National Individual Events Tournament, even though I lived outside the district, because nobody else wanted it. We dealt with exactly zero transfer issues, even though at least one prominent competitor transferred while I was on the committee.


purduefanatic



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 10:58 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

beknighted wrote:
I did some debate (mostly NDT), but my focus was on individual events, which was easier given resource issues at Rutgers (as in, no debate coach). I ended up as District VIII chair for the AFA National Individual Events Tournament, even though I lived outside the district, because nobody else wanted it. We dealt with exactly zero transfer issues, even though at least one prominent competitor transferred while I was on the committee.


So maybe things like debate, drama etc aren't as regulated when it comes to transferring because it's not an issue. Kinda like how most rules and laws came into effect...if it isn't an issue, nothing is legislated but as soon as it becomes a problem, something is done about it.


GlennMacGrady



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 11:32 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

pilight wrote:


As a side note to those who know the college debate scene, my coach at Mercer my first three years was Bill Slagle, who left an indelible mark on the activity at the school he left us for (Samford University). I would not have guessed he had that in him.


Continuing the tangent:

Slagle killed Rex Copeland. The national team debating trophy, the Rex Copeland Memorial Award, is named after him.

Pilight's former coach, who has been denied parole twice:

beknighted



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 11:51 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Wow.

And continuing the tangent further, I competed at the National Individual Events Tournament in Ogden in 1983. The altitude had a definite effect on the people from the flat East Coast. (In individual events, you tend to run around a lot more than you do in debate, which may have had something to do with it.)


pilight



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 11:54 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Pilight's former coach, who has been denied parole twice


He died in prison in 2010.



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ArtBest23



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PostPosted: 06/30/14 1:18 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Copeland's teammate in the picture above has now written a 1st World War related novel.

She also wrote an intriguing column about Copeland and Slagle and the murder, her emotions from that episode in her life, and the relationship to her novel.

http://harvard1914.com/about-rex-copeland/


pilight



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PostPosted: 07/09/14 12:00 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/item/69980-young-philly-football-stars-transfer-stirs-bad-blood-between-two-schools

Quote:
In the eyes of the Pennsylvania Interscholastic Athletic Association (PIAA), though, his transfer left him ineligible to play football for King his senior year. That means the recruiters from big-time college programs like Missouri, Pitt, West Virginia and Rutgers, who've sent him the letters that fill a shoebox on the living-room windowsill, won't get to see him play.



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