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| How good a coach is Holly Warlick? |
| One of the best |
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11% |
[ 6 ] |
| Above average |
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37% |
[ 20 ] |
| Average |
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41% |
[ 22 ] |
| Below average |
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9% |
[ 5 ] |
| Poor |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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 Posted: 06/15/14 10:18 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| rizla wrote: |
OK Art,
Name your "should have hired a proven, top notch, experienced head coach."
Gotta be gettable too. |
Gettable is a key point - a lot of top notch coaches would be unlikely to want to step into the Tennessee job after Pat. It's close to a no-win situation. |
For the Tennessee job? I think Geno, Muffet and Tara are the only three certain "no"s. So take your pick. And it was two years ago too; Graves and McGuff were available at the time. Do you really think Walz wouldn't jump at the Tenn job, just like Strong bolted for the Texas football job?
They'd want to know Pat was out and that they were truly in charge. And Pat's not out which is why they have Holly.
If Tenn was willing to move on and really hire a big time coach to take over, they could. But they aren't willing to move on.
Big time coaches have big egos. It goes with the job. Virtually any of them would jump at at the chance to take the biggest program back to the top. That stuff about "no one wants to replace a legend" gets repeated by fans, but it's nonsense and those programs never have any problem finding plenty of people willing to take the risk. They just need the will to try. |
So there you go: "They'd want to know Pat was out and that they were truly in charge."
Pat's ongoing presence is a huge reason why the job would look like even more of a trap than it would have been if she had retired and gone off to Bora Bora.
And you're not trying if you can think of only three people who wouldn't have taken the job under those circumstances. You can add CVS and probably Mulkey to the list, just to name two.
Also, unlike men's basketball, which has a history of people being peripatetic and a lot less job security in the medium run, WCBB coaches are more likely to stay in place. Heck, after 2006, I figured that Brenda Frese would be taking the next big opening - it was consistent with her history - but she's still at Maryland, and I'm not sure even a job like Tennessee could get her to leave. |
I don't think Mulkey's a certain "no". She probably wouldn't have left two years ago with Griner returning, but today she might. She certainly shouldn't be off limits. I doubt anyone will be offering Frese any job better than she already has. Are you saying she got a better offer that she turned down? That would surprise me. Same with CVS. And I doubt anyone would offer it to Blair because of his age.
If Tenn actually offered the job to a real coach, then it would reflect they're ready to move on. They're not, so they won't. Indeed, if they fired Warlick today they'd probably hire Caldwell, which would basically be more of the same and would be done for the same reason. Can't let go of Pat.
Women's basketball coaches "stay in place" primarily because most schools just don't care and mediocrity gets rewarded with endless tenure. This also results in fewer openings becoming available for people to move up the ranks so the people who might move if given the chance get stuck where they are. There's nothing inherent in the job that makes it less likely that a good WCBB coach would decline the oppurtunity to move up.
No one thought Graves would leave Gonzaga either.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 06/15/14 10:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 06/15/14 10:23 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| [No one thought Graves would leave Gonzaga either. |
You do know that Graves leaving Gonzaga was not like somebody going from a top program to Tennessee, right? The risk/reward ratio is way different.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 06/15/14 10:34 pm ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| [No one thought Graves would leave Gonzaga either. |
You do know that Graves leaving Gonzaga was not like somebody going from a top program to Tennessee, right? The risk/reward ratio is way different. |
Who are these "top programs" where the opportunity to become elite isn't a step up? It's a big step up to Tenn from nearly anywhere. I don't think the gap from Gonzaga to Oregon was any greater. Oregon has a lot of Phil Knight money but it certainly has no tradition of WBB sucess.
Graves was a proven winner. He would have been a home run hire for Tenn. As McGuff would have been. But if they want an even bigger name, they could get one.
They want a Pat stand-in, not a new coach.
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rizla
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: 06/15/14 10:40 pm ::: |
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And, two years ago, Walz only had 5 years experience as a first-time head coach.
Not exactly "experienced".
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/15/14 10:49 pm ::: |
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| rizla wrote: |
And, two years ago, Walz only had 5 years experience as a first-time head coach.
Not exactly "experienced". |
Yeah and in those 5 years had 4 NCAA appearances, including 2 sweet sixteens and a finals. At a school that had never made it past the 2nd round before in its history. Yeah, I call that extremely experienced.
You're not suggesting Warlick was in the same universe in terms of qualifications were you?
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/15/14 11:23 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| [No one thought Graves would leave Gonzaga either. |
You do know that Graves leaving Gonzaga was not like somebody going from a top program to Tennessee, right? The risk/reward ratio is way different. |
Who are these "top programs" where the opportunity to become elite isn't a step up? It's a big step up to Tenn from nearly anywhere. I don't think the gap from Gonzaga to Oregon was any greater. Oregon has a lot of Phil Knight money but it certainly has no tradition of WBB sucess.
Graves was a proven winner. He would have been a home run hire for Tenn. As McGuff would have been. But if they want an even bigger name, they could get one.
They want a Pat stand-in, not a new coach. |
I don't disagree with the last sentence, but the rest is at best speculation:
1. In terms of salary, the top coaches at top programs would not be getting a huge bump up to go to Tennessee. If we assume an AD who wants to maintain the program, it would be something, but not, say, double what they're getting now. (I'm going to define a "top coach" by this standard as someone who's made a Final Four.) In terms of job security, Tennessee would be much worse than their current situations. Tennessee is a definite step up in exposure and pressure, to name two things, but it's not like you need to be at Tennessee to win national championships.
2. Graves is good, but he would not have been on Tennessee's radar by your standards, and certainly would have been viewed as more risky than hiring Warlick. He had exactly an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 in his time at Gonzaga, and lost to an 11 seed this year. A fine hire for the Ducks, no doubt, but he'd only be viewed as a "home run hire" in Tennessee if he had years of success there.
3. McGuff, again, wouldn't be a "top coach" by any reasonable definition based on his record at Xavier and Washington. One Elite 8, followed by a 2nd round exit at Xavier, two WNIT bids at Washington. Given what was going on at OSU and what I suspect is a good network for recruiting in Ohio, not a bad hire for them, but Tennessee's in a different category.
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rizla
Joined: 29 Jul 2008
Posts: 8
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| Posted: 06/15/14 11:28 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| rizla wrote: |
And, two years ago, Walz only had 5 years experience as a first-time head coach.
Not exactly "experienced". |
Yeah and in those 5 years had 4 NCAA appearances, including 2 sweet sixteens and a finals. At a school that had never made it past the 2nd round before in its history. Yeah, I call that extremely experienced.
You're not suggesting Warlick was in the same universe in terms of qualifications were you? |
I said nothing about Warlick.
I was referring to Walz's experience, an attribute that you stated as a qualification for the Tennessee Head Coach.
"should have hired a proven, top notch, experienced head coach."
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 06/15/14 11:46 pm ::: |
Reply |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| [No one thought Graves would leave Gonzaga either. |
You do know that Graves leaving Gonzaga was not like somebody going from a top program to Tennessee, right? The risk/reward ratio is way different. |
Who are these "top programs" where the opportunity to become elite isn't a step up? It's a big step up to Tenn from nearly anywhere. I don't think the gap from Gonzaga to Oregon was any greater. Oregon has a lot of Phil Knight money but it certainly has no tradition of WBB sucess.
Graves was a proven winner. He would have been a home run hire for Tenn. As McGuff would have been. But if they want an even bigger name, they could get one.
They want a Pat stand-in, not a new coach. |
I don't disagree with the last sentence, but the rest is at best speculation:
1. In terms of salary, the top coaches at top programs would not be getting a huge bump up to go to Tennessee. If we assume an AD who wants to maintain the program, it would be something, but not, say, double what they're getting now. (I'm going to define a "top coach" by this standard as someone who's made a Final Four.) In terms of job security, Tennessee would be much worse than their current situations. Tennessee is a definite step up in exposure and pressure, to name two things, but it's not like you need to be at Tennessee to win national championships.
2. Graves is good, but he would not have been on Tennessee's radar by your standards, and certainly would have been viewed as more risky than hiring Warlick. He had exactly an Elite 8 and a Sweet 16 in his time at Gonzaga, and lost to an 11 seed this year. A fine hire for the Ducks, no doubt, but he'd only be viewed as a "home run hire" in Tennessee if he had years of success there.
3. McGuff, again, wouldn't be a "top coach" by any reasonable definition based on his record at Xavier and Washington. One Elite 8, followed by a 2nd round exit at Xavier, two WNIT bids at Washington. Given what was going on at OSU and what I suspect is a good network for recruiting in Ohio, not a bad hire for them, but Tennessee's in a different category. |
Sorry, I think you're completely wrong about Graves and McGuff. They were the two hottest young coaches in WCBB. On everybody's list, and home run hires for anybody that got them. Yeah, they were moving up from smaller programs which is why they didn't have final fours (a total artificial measure, by the way), and were universally recognized as highly successful. I think you know better than what you wrote.
In terms of salary, Tenn should be able (and willing) to pay more than any other school. They far exceed everyone else in attendance, they have the biggest budget already, they have SEC money (and now SEC network money). It's not like they have to pay millions to give someone a huge bump from where they already are. They're only paying Warlick $485K. They're paying Martin $1.3M and Jones $3M. Graves is only getting $500,000 at Oregon. If they value their position at the top of the WBB mountain at all, then pay accordingly. OhSt is paying McGuff $850,000. Does WBB mean less to Tenn than it does to Ohio St? If Oh St can pay $850K, Tenn should be willing to pay over $1M without blinking. Mulkey's getting $1M at Baylor, so if WBB matters, offer her $1.5M. Or is the head women's head coach at Baylor worth more than the head coach at Tenn? That's laughable. Besides, coaches don't take jobs like the Tenn WBB HC job for the money, they take them for the challenge, the prestige, the chance to become a legend. It's why football coaches take the HC job at places like Alabama and OhSt and Texas and USC and Notre Dame, it's why MBB coaches take jobs at UNC and KY and Kansas. Sure, they get paid well too, but they want to be the best and they want to be famous. And that means taking the most prestigious job and succeeding at it.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 06/16/14 6:26 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Sorry, I think you're completely wrong about Graves and McGuff. They were the two hottest young coaches in WCBB. On everybody's list, and home run hires for anybody that got them. Yeah, they were moving up from smaller programs which is why they didn't have final fours (a total artificial measure, by the way), and were universally recognized as highly successful. I think you know better than what you wrote. |
I was trying to come up with some standard to judge a coach who Tennessee would have been willing to hire from outside to replace one of the two best coaches in the history of the game. You're saying you know one when you see one. All of this is speculation, of course, but I think my position is more reasonable - and more likely to reflect the thinking of a program like Tennessee - than yours. A hot mid-major coach who'd never made a Final Four (and who, in both cases, had regressed considerably in their results after hitting their high-water marks of making the Elite  is a much greater risk than a coach who's made the Final Four at a major program.
I also think you continue to treat WCBB like it's the same as men's basketball or football in terms of how coaches act. I don't see much evidence of that being true. And, of course, you still have to deal with the problem that Pat isn't really gone, which I think even you have acknowledged would have made it harder to hire from outside.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 8:54 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Sorry, I think you're completely wrong about Graves and McGuff. They were the two hottest young coaches in WCBB. On everybody's list, and home run hires for anybody that got them. Yeah, they were moving up from smaller programs which is why they didn't have final fours (a total artificial measure, by the way), and were universally recognized as highly successful. I think you know better than what you wrote. |
I was trying to come up with some standard to judge a coach who Tennessee would have been willing to hire from outside to replace one of the two best coaches in the history of the game. You're saying you know one when you see one. All of this is speculation, of course, but I think my position is more reasonable - and more likely to reflect the thinking of a program like Tennessee - than yours. A hot mid-major coach who'd never made a Final Four (and who, in both cases, had regressed considerably in their results after hitting their high-water marks of making the Elite is a much greater risk than a coach who's made the Final Four at a major program.
I also think you continue to treat WCBB like it's the same as men's basketball or football in terms of how coaches act. I don't see much evidence of that being true. And, of course, you still have to deal with the problem that Pat isn't really gone, which I think even you have acknowledged would have made it harder to hire from outside. |
It's not just me who recognized that Graves and McGuff are excellent coaches. But if you want to ignore conventional wisdom and your eyes in favor of a slavish obsession with statistics, that's your choice. You go ahead and hire FF coaches McCallie or Pam Borton; I'll take Graves or McGuff over them every time.
There's nothing inherently different about WBB compared to football or MBB. The hiring changes are slower only because too many schools don't care, don't demand excellence, and consequently they don't often enough fire underperforming coaches, and they typically aren't willing to pay to hire the best. But the coaches themselves when given the opportunity act the same. See, e.g., McGuff, Graves, Caldwell, Barnes Arico, Blair, etc.
The entire point of this thread is that Tennessee is the top job in the sport and of all schools, that one should be willing to hire the best and pay accordingly. And I believe I already said that a Pat assistant was hired because they wouldn't let go of Pat. It wasn't about being unable to hire outside, they didn't even try.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/16/14 9:29 am ::: |
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But Pat was and is still there. It makes the hypothetical of what Tennessee should have done if there'd been a clean break look kind of pointless.
And of course hiring someone like McGuff or Graves is a much bigger risk for an AD than hiring someone who's peaked higher (or, for that matter, one of Pat's assistants). Like it or not, it's quite similar to the old adage that nobody ever got fired for buying from IBM (and its converse - that people did get fired for buying from someone else). I'm not sure why you think that a program like Tennessee would take that kind of risk.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 9:46 am ::: |
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| beknighted wrote: |
But Pat was and is still there. It makes the hypothetical of what Tennessee should have done if there'd been a clean break look kind of pointless.
And of course hiring someone like McGuff or Graves is a much bigger risk for an AD than hiring someone who's peaked higher (or, for that matter, one of Pat's assistants). Like it or not, it's quite similar to the old adage that nobody ever got fired for buying from IBM (and its converse - that people did get fired for buying from someone else). I'm not sure why you think that a program like Tennessee would take that kind of risk. |
You think it's a bigger risk to hire a proven experienced CEO, floor general, recruiter and program builder than a career bag carrier? Then obviously we aren't going to agree.
Ask UNC how Bill Guthridge worked out. Exact same thing.
Funny how Chris Petersen and Charlie Strong had never won anything but were at the top of every AD's list for major coaching openings. Guess they were looking at more than just national championships won. Obviously Texas and Washington should have gone after coaches who had "peaked higher".
The point is that Tenn should have made the clean break but didn't. That's the very point of the discussion.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 06/16/14 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/16/14 10:34 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
But Pat was and is still there. It makes the hypothetical of what Tennessee should have done if there'd been a clean break look kind of pointless.
And of course hiring someone like McGuff or Graves is a much bigger risk for an AD than hiring someone who's peaked higher (or, for that matter, one of Pat's assistants). Like it or not, it's quite similar to the old adage that nobody ever got fired for buying from IBM (and its converse - that people did get fired for buying from someone else). I'm not sure why you think that a program like Tennessee would take that kind of risk. |
You think it's a bigger risk to hire a proven experienced CEO, floor general, recruiter and program builder than a career bag carrier? Then obviously we aren't going to agree.
Ask UNC how Bill Guthridge worked out. Exact same thing.
Funny how Chris Petersen and Charlie Strong had never won anything but were at the top of every AD's list for major coaching openings. Guess they were looking at more than just national championships won. Obviously Texas and Washington should have gone after coaches who had "peaked higher". |
I don't think you're using the word "risk" the same way an AD would. And "bag carrier" is cute, but not particularly descriptive of the role of top assistants.
The truth is that some hires of assistants work out very well (otherwise the pool of coaches would have dried up long ago) and some work out badly. The same is true of hires of head coaches who are moving up. Sometimes the coach was a big fish in a small pond and the new pond is too big; sometimes the coach grows to fit the pond.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 10:50 am ::: |
Reply |
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| beknighted wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| beknighted wrote: |
But Pat was and is still there. It makes the hypothetical of what Tennessee should have done if there'd been a clean break look kind of pointless.
And of course hiring someone like McGuff or Graves is a much bigger risk for an AD than hiring someone who's peaked higher (or, for that matter, one of Pat's assistants). Like it or not, it's quite similar to the old adage that nobody ever got fired for buying from IBM (and its converse - that people did get fired for buying from someone else). I'm not sure why you think that a program like Tennessee would take that kind of risk. |
You think it's a bigger risk to hire a proven experienced CEO, floor general, recruiter and program builder than a career bag carrier? Then obviously we aren't going to agree.
Ask UNC how Bill Guthridge worked out. Exact same thing.
Funny how Chris Petersen and Charlie Strong had never won anything but were at the top of every AD's list for major coaching openings. Guess they were looking at more than just national championships won. Obviously Texas and Washington should have gone after coaches who had "peaked higher". |
I don't think you're using the word "risk" the same way an AD would. And "bag carrier" is cute, but not particularly descriptive of the role of top assistants.
The truth is that some hires of assistants work out very well (otherwise the pool of coaches would have dried up long ago) and some work out badly. The same is true of hires of head coaches who are moving up. Sometimes the coach was a big fish in a small pond and the new pond is too big; sometimes the coach grows to fit the pond. |
Certainly some assistants move up. That's where most head coaches come from. But (1) those are usually assistants with drive, ambition and evident talent who do so early in their careers, and (2) they don't start their HC career at the top program in the country.
Tell me all the 20 year assistants who were elevated to HC at their current school and became huge successes.
Every coaching hire is a risk. Most Div 1 coaches regardless of background fail. (It's just that in WCBB most of them hang around anyhow.) But some hires are plainly better with a higher liklihood of success than others.
It's really no different than hiring in a law firm or anywhere else.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:17 am ::: |
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I'm still hoping someone can fill me in on "evil" Dave Hart and why he's trying to destroy women's sports at Tennessee.
Maybe he is, but hiring Holly Warlick didn't seem like a terrible thing to do. And if I recall, the move to combine the two athletic departments came from higher up the food chain.
So he comes in, forces Summitt out, has to deal with those who don't like the new regime and new setup, and does so in a less than warm and empathetic manner.
Maybe he could be a nicer guy, but I still don't see how he's destroying women's sports. Please fill those of us outside the Southeast in on the details. I don't doubt you, really -- I just don't have very much information.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:35 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm still hoping someone can fill me in on "evil" Dave Hart and why he's trying to destroy women's sports at Tennessee.
Maybe he is, but hiring Holly Warlick didn't seem like a terrible thing to do. And if I recall, the move to combine the two athletic departments came from higher up the food chain.
So he comes in, forces Summitt out, has to deal with those who don't like the new regime and new setup, and does so in a less than warm and empathetic manner.
Maybe he could be a nicer guy, but I still don't see how he's destroying women's sports. Please fill those of us outside the Southeast in on the details. I don't doubt you, really -- I just don't have very much information. |
I don't know about and have no view on his overall "destruction" of women's sports at Tenn, but I am curious how wanting to eliminate "Lady Vols" equals destroying women's sports. What if, for example, he went out and spent $2M/yr to hire away Jeff Walz, but ordered new uniforms and singage that just used "Volunteers". Would that reflect an effort to destroy women's sports? Lot's of schools have chosen to use a single sex-neutral nickname for all their teams. I have no view one way or the other but I think some people feel that "lady _____" names reinforce stereotypes about women athletes. I'm sure the change upsets traditionalists wherever it happens, but I'm not convinced that decision alone reflects a desire to diminish women's sports. It could be intended as just the opposite, an effort to elevate the level and respect for women's sports.
Again, I'm not commenting on Hart. For all I know he may be trying to diminish women's sports. I'm only commenting on the comments that eliminating the Lady Vols nickname = trying to destroy all women's sports.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 11:46 am ::: |
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| rizla wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| rizla wrote: |
And, two years ago, Walz only had 5 years experience as a first-time head coach.
Not exactly "experienced". |
Yeah and in those 5 years had 4 NCAA appearances, including 2 sweet sixteens and a finals. At a school that had never made it past the 2nd round before in its history. Yeah, I call that extremely experienced.
You're not suggesting Warlick was in the same universe in terms of qualifications were you? |
I said nothing about Warlick.
I was referring to Walz's experience, an attribute that you stated as a qualification for the Tennessee Head Coach.
"should have hired a proven, top notch, experienced head coach." |
Then you'll have to explain further in what respect you believe 5 years of HC experience including 4 tourney appearances, 2 sweet sixteens, and a finals at a school that had never before scaled such heights falls short of being "proven, top notch, and experienced", 'cause I'm not seeing it.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 06/16/14 1:54 pm ::: |
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| I guess we can all stop arguing now that the self-appointed expert, Art, has spoken.
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It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 1:57 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| I guess we can all stop arguing now that the self-appointed expert, Art, has spoken. |
Thank you for your valuable substantive contribution to the discussion.
Clay asked a perfectly reasonable question about the basis for the claims, in part by you, that Hart was trying to destroy women's sports.
I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for a reasoned response.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 06/16/14 2:07 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm still hoping someone can fill me in on "evil" Dave Hart and why he's trying to destroy women's sports at Tennessee.
Maybe he is, but hiring Holly Warlick didn't seem like a terrible thing to do. And if I recall, the move to combine the two athletic departments came from higher up the food chain.
So he comes in, forces Summitt out, has to deal with those who don't like the new regime and new setup, and does so in a less than warm and empathetic manner.
Maybe he could be a nicer guy, but I still don't see how he's destroying women's sports. Please fill those of us outside the Southeast in on the details. I don't doubt you, really -- I just don't have very much information. |
You need to go back in history a bit and read up on Hart. He has an ugly history with Florida State women's athletics, and there is something else too that I don't recall at this moment. He is a hire of chancellor Jimmy Cheek (aka Jimmy the Cheek) who is roundly hated on campus. They are both Bama boys (which does not add to their luster) and thus only about football, but preferably on the cheap.
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Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 06/16/14 2:08 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I guess we can all stop arguing now that the self-appointed expert, Art, has spoken. |
Thank you for your valuable substantive contribution to the discussion.
Clay asked a perfectly reasonable question about the basis for the claims, in part by you, that Hart was trying to destroy women's sports.
I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for a reasoned response. |
Art, I do not get in discussions with you. I got tired of being talked down to long ago. I have answered Clay's question in another post.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 06/16/14 2:21 pm ::: |
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| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I guess we can all stop arguing now that the self-appointed expert, Art, has spoken. |
Thank you for your valuable substantive contribution to the discussion.
Clay asked a perfectly reasonable question about the basis for the claims, in part by you, that Hart was trying to destroy women's sports.
I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for a reasoned response. |
Art, I do not get in discussions with you. I got tired of being talked down to long ago. I have answered Clay's question in another post. |
That's true. You don't. You just make obnoxious ad hominum cracks.
This isn't the same as that troll board you frequent.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550
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| Posted: 06/16/14 2:49 pm ::: |
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Clay, since it's evident you're not going to get meaningful explanations elsewhere, you might read these articles. Looks like the former FSU softball coach didn't like him at all, but others did. On the other hand, there's this: "UT senior women's administrator Donna Thomas went so far as to say, "I believe he is as much or more of an advocate for our young women as anyone who has ever worked here.""
Looks like he may be a polarizing figure with marching orders to balance the out-of-control budget. We're just going to have wait for any actual basis for the assertion that he's out to destroy women's sports:
http://www.govolsxtra.com/news/2012/aug/04/former-florida-state-coach-says-dave-hart-was-to/
http://www.tnsportsradio.com/2014/04/23/harts-problems/
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7849
Location: Shenandoah Valley
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| Posted: 06/16/14 3:48 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| I guess we can all stop arguing now that the self-appointed expert, Art, has spoken. |
Thank you for your valuable substantive contribution to the discussion.
Clay asked a perfectly reasonable question about the basis for the claims, in part by you, that Hart was trying to destroy women's sports.
I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for a reasoned response. |
Art, I do not get in discussions with you. I got tired of being talked down to long ago. I have answered Clay's question in another post. |
That's true. You don't. You just make obnoxious ad hominum cracks.
This isn't the same as that troll board you frequent. |
Said he, making one. *yawn*
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
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bekcat1
Joined: 24 Feb 2011
Posts: 874
Location: The ATL
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| Posted: 06/16/14 4:03 pm ::: |
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Art, firstly, thank you for posting the links you posted (even if was with your normal amount of snark). I had a family situation I had to tend to, so I wasn't able to get on the board for any real length of time to do it myself.
As for the situation at FSU, it only takes one complaint to unearth a problem. As you may or may not be familiar with (I'm taking a wild guess that, by uneducated choice, you are not), sexual harassment/discrimination is something that tends to happen in the shadows, under threat of retailiation if reported. One person was brave enough to report it, but it does not, under any circumstances, mean that it was the only instance. Maybe it was. But I seriously doubt it. The one who harasses does not usually limit his harassment to just one individual.
As for my comment about Alabama's WBB...have you actually seen the bandbox of a gym they actually play real games in? It's not fit to be even a practice facility for any premier D-1 SEC program in any sport. And they didn't just start playing games there...they've been there for a while now. Hopefully Coach Curry will raise holy hell about it and get them in a proper arena.
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