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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
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 Posted: 06/20/14 3:17 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| Stanford and UConn play at Maples on Nov. 17th for those who are trying to piece together UConn's Schedule. |
We'll get a read on how far Stanford has fallen -- which conceivably could be not much -- in this one. |
It's still rather early in the season isn't it? I think Stanford will have a lot of room to grow. We'll see how much Thompson and Orrange can challenge a UConn that lacks Hartley to be the answer to Orrange. (Moriah Jefferson definitely grew up some last season, but she laid a goose egg in that first game against Stanford with her shooting and if that happens again, UConn could be in major trouble if they didn't have Breanna Stewart who Stanford doesn't have an answer for). I think that UConn's guards are slightly thinner than Stanfords--and that's going to be interesting to see how Stanford responds to not being reliant on a post player for the first time in years.
What strikes me as interesting from the FF matchup is that Erica McCall garnered more rebounds in just 7 minutes, than Kiah Stokes did in 22 minutes.
As for Ridor, I don't understand your vehemence for UConn, I certainly dislike the dynasty they have--partly because they've played the villain in Stanford's quest for a title on numerous occasions; however, there are moments when Stanford is given the momentous chance to be a part of history that makes the fans excited. I would point out when Stanford ended "the streak" it was a huge accomplishment by the program--yet they fell short of a title. I appreciate everything that Geno brings--and what his teams offer--even if I think they get away with things sometimes because of the aura that surrounds the program. Sure, I'd be delighted to see some new blood to start pulling some punches and to end the dominance of UConn--but hey, it takes hard work and dedication to the game to be worthy of winning championships.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
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| Posted: 06/20/14 3:32 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| ridor wrote: |
My point is that when Louisiana Tech showed up in American South, Leon had to beef up the OOC. So did Paul Sanderford with Western Kentucky and Wendy Larry with Old Dominion. It appears to me that UConn is doing the same thing. It is trying to keep up with the press announcements telling us that they will schedule Notre Dame, South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, Stanford and Baylor. Basically, Geno knew that the AAC is not going to help him in many ways so he is overcompensating by making press announcements.
Unlike ODU, WKU and La Tech, Geno had ESPN & Hartford Courant to help him out when needed. So time will tell on how it shall pan itself out. I just look forward to the day that we will have Final Four free of UConn Huskies and Geno Auriemma. That would be a good thing for the sport. |
I'm no historian of wcbb so maybe someone will tell me what "power conference" LA Tech was in when they were still a national power? |
LA Tech was independent for two of it's titles in '81 and '82 when it was in the AIAW, and had just joined the American South when it won it's 3rd title, an NCAA Title in '88. I think the advent of Power Conferences is really difficult to determine--because in today's world it's a lot more challenging to be an independent given the huge disparity in money that exists between programs not a part of the Power Conferences. Yeah, LA Tech may have been able to manage it, but the grim reality is that the last time LA Tech made the NCAA finals was all the way back in '98, 10 years after the title. Now, Leon Barmore deserves a ton of credit for being able to make LA Tech as successful as it was---but heck, in the Sun Belt you had credible programs such as Western Kentucky who made the Finals of the NCAA Tourney in 1992 and actually stole the conference crown for a few years from the Techsters. Who does UConn have in it's conference to challenge LA Tech like that? WKU was a credible team in it's own right in those days--and heck, I don't see anyone like that in the AAC.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/20/14 3:39 pm ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| ridor wrote: |
My point is that when Louisiana Tech showed up in American South, Leon had to beef up the OOC. So did Paul Sanderford with Western Kentucky and Wendy Larry with Old Dominion. It appears to me that UConn is doing the same thing. It is trying to keep up with the press announcements telling us that they will schedule Notre Dame, South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, Stanford and Baylor. Basically, Geno knew that the AAC is not going to help him in many ways so he is overcompensating by making press announcements.
Unlike ODU, WKU and La Tech, Geno had ESPN & Hartford Courant to help him out when needed. So time will tell on how it shall pan itself out. I just look forward to the day that we will have Final Four free of UConn Huskies and Geno Auriemma. That would be a good thing for the sport. |
I'm no historian of wcbb so maybe someone will tell me what "power conference" LA Tech was in when they were still a national power? |
LA Tech was independent for two of it's titles in '81 and '82 when it was in the AIAW, and had just joined the American South when it won it's 3rd title, an NCAA Title in '88. I think the advent of Power Conferences is really difficult to determine--because in today's world it's a lot more challenging to be an independent given the huge disparity in money that exists between programs not a part of the Power Conferences. Yeah, LA Tech may have been able to manage it, but the grim reality is that the last time LA Tech made the NCAA finals was all the way back in '98, 10 years after the title. Now, Leon Barmore deserves a ton of credit for being able to make LA Tech as successful as it was---but heck, in the Sun Belt you had credible programs such as Western Kentucky who made the Finals of the NCAA Tourney in 1992 and actually stole the conference crown for a few years from the Techsters. Who does UConn have in it's conference to challenge LA Tech like that? WKU was a credible team in it's own right in those days--and heck, I don't see anyone like that in the AAC. |
And it's important to remember that early on there weren't really "power conferences" in WCBB the way there were in MCBB. This was a legacy of the pre-Title IX landscape, when the best coaches often were places where great coaches wouldn't be today. You could say, in some respects, that the beginning of the end for that era was when CVS left Cheyney State for Iowa - she was offered a bigger platform and took advantage of it.
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linkster
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| Posted: 06/20/14 4:06 pm ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
I'm no historian of wcbb so maybe someone will tell me what "power conference" LA Tech was in when they were still a national power? |
LA Tech was independent for two of it's titles in '81 and '82 when it was in the AIAW, and had just joined the American South when it won it's 3rd title, an NCAA Title in '88. I think the advent of Power Conferences is really difficult to determine--because in today's world it's a lot more challenging to be an independent given the huge disparity in money that exists between programs not a part of the Power Conferences. Yeah, LA Tech may have been able to manage it, but the grim reality is that the last time LA Tech made the NCAA finals was all the way back in '98, 10 years after the title. Now, Leon Barmore deserves a ton of credit for being able to make LA Tech as successful as it was---but heck, in the Sun Belt you had credible programs such as Western Kentucky who made the Finals of the NCAA Tourney in 1992 and actually stole the conference crown for a few years from the Techsters. Who does UConn have in it's conference to challenge LA Tech like that? WKU was a credible team in it's own right in those days--and heck, I don't see anyone like that in the AAC.[/quote]
Neither do I. However teams at the top only have 4 or 6 credible opponents in the entire country. From 95 - 13 UConn rarely had more than one credible opponent in the BE in any year. I don't see how 2 or 3 more competitive in-conference games a year is that big a difference other than it lets teams play a very limited OOC schedule. Tenn played Notre Dame, UNC and Stanford OOC. Notre Dame played Tenn and PSU. Yeah, Houston is worse than Boston College but would it help UConn more to beat BC by 35 than Houston by 45? And the same is true of the majority of the ACC. UConn would still need some top level OOC games if they were in the ACC.
Now a major conference membership certainly helps teams for whom just getting in the NCAA's is a major goal. Hell. it's been shown that a team can go winless all year and still get a 35 RPI if they play the right teams. So it matters for them but No team in Any conference thinking of winning a NC plays more than 4 or 5 (at most) conference games that aren't miss-matches (or at least should be miss-matches).
LA Tech fell from the top ranks because they couldn't match the budgets of big schools. Recruits like nice locker rooms and plane rides to games and first class hotels and food and all the media attention. UConn has all those and more and as long as they keep their coaching staff they will survive the AAC, despite how much others wish it otherwise.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/20/14 4:40 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
I'm no historian of wcbb so maybe someone will tell me what "power conference" LA Tech was in when they were still a national power? |
LA Tech was independent for two of it's titles in '81 and '82 when it was in the AIAW, and had just joined the American South when it won it's 3rd title, an NCAA Title in '88. I think the advent of Power Conferences is really difficult to determine--because in today's world it's a lot more challenging to be an independent given the huge disparity in money that exists between programs not a part of the Power Conferences. Yeah, LA Tech may have been able to manage it, but the grim reality is that the last time LA Tech made the NCAA finals was all the way back in '98, 10 years after the title. Now, Leon Barmore deserves a ton of credit for being able to make LA Tech as successful as it was---but heck, in the Sun Belt you had credible programs such as Western Kentucky who made the Finals of the NCAA Tourney in 1992 and actually stole the conference crown for a few years from the Techsters. Who does UConn have in it's conference to challenge LA Tech like that? WKU was a credible team in it's own right in those days--and heck, I don't see anyone like that in the AAC. |
Neither do I. However teams at the top only have 4 or 6 credible opponents in the entire country. From 95 - 13 UConn rarely had more than one credible opponent in the BE in any year. I don't see how 2 or 3 more competitive in-conference games a year is that big a difference other than it lets teams play a very limited OOC schedule. Tenn played Notre Dame, UNC and Stanford OOC. Notre Dame played Tenn and PSU. Yeah, Houston is worse than Boston College but would it help UConn more to beat BC by 35 than Houston by 45? And the same is true of the majority of the ACC. UConn would still need some top level OOC games if they were in the ACC.
Now a major conference membership certainly helps teams for whom just getting in the NCAA's is a major goal. Hell. it's been shown that a team can go winless all year and still get a 35 RPI if they play the right teams. So it matters for them but No team in Any conference thinking of winning a NC plays more than 4 or 5 (at most) conference games that aren't miss-matches (or at least should be miss-matches).
LA Tech fell from the top ranks because they couldn't match the budgets of big schools. Recruits like nice locker rooms and plane rides to games and first class hotels and food and all the media attention. UConn has all those and more and as long as they keep their coaching staff they will survive the AAC, despite how much others wish it otherwise. |
I would agree that Connecticut has rarely had more than 1 or 2 conference opponents that would have a reasonable chance of beating the Huskies in any given year, but that's not all you need to think about in this context. The BEast regularly had half a dozen teams that were nigh unto locks for the NCAA, plus a couple of others that had a reasonable chance. That had three different impacts - first, it gave UConn more in-conference opportunities for quality wins; and, second, it made UConn have to work harder for its wins than it will going forward; and, third, it boosted the credible UConn opponents' RPIs, etc., further burnishing UConn's credentials. In the AAC, all of these impacts, plus having even a single credible opponent, will be going away.
I think I'm on record as saying that UConn will be okay for a while (if not, now I am), but I do think there's a potential long term issue there. We won't know, of course, for quite a while, and maybe UConn will have found a better home for all of its teams by then.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 06/20/14 5:52 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
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| The Pac 10/12 was never as weak as the AAC, so I'm not sure it's a great comparison. It's at least consistently been a multi-bid conference. I'm not sure I can think of a credible 2nd NCAA team from the new AAC. |
Being better than the AAC is no badge of excellence. During UCLA's reign there was one PAC team with a record over .500. The PAC has never been anything but a collection of "tomato cans" with one jar of caviar and a couple of tuna.
| Quote: |
I'm not sure the history of what conference a team was in matters that much. However, if you want a comparison that's more like UConn than LaTech, there's ODU. Wendy Larry did quite well for a while, but then it became impossible to maintain a strong enough schedule to be credible.
I'm not saying it's going to happen, as there's only one Geno, but if it does I think it will be a relatively slow decline, like ODU, and at first it won't be obvious. |
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And I'm not saying UConn won't decline after Geno is gone, or that the AAC isn't' a bad conference. I'm just tired of posters who keep talking about their schedule without any supporting evidence.
Did the old Big East provide enough competition that UConn didn't need any top OOC games? I say no. The last 3 years UConn had 3 great games against Notre Dame and little else. In fact we can look at any conference in the country and see 95% of the teams would lose by 30+ to UConn. Let's say UConn moves to the B1G. Would it mean that UConn no longer needs any top level OOC games?
The truth is that there are maybe 10-12 elite level teams in any given year in the entire country. UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, UNC, Tenn, Louisville & 3 others that vary year to year. The 7 named are in 4 conferences.
UConn will have 16 AAC games that will be blowouts. The 2 games with USF may also but USF is a nice program that has given both UConn and ND trouble in the past.
The reality of wcbb is that there isn't enough talent. The talent that exists gravitates to a dozen teams scattered across 5 conferences plus UConn. The schedule of every top team is filled with games (in conf and out) that offer no real challenge. UConn may have more of them but not so many more to make a difference.
What the complainers are really saying is that Villanova, Seaton Hall, etc. provide better competition than UCF or Houston. That may be true but there are a lot of recruits in Fla & Texas and UConn having a footprint in those areas has some value.
| Quote: |
| UConn will have to discard some of the traditional OOC tomato cans it used to schedule when it was in the legendary BEC. |
WOW, talk about revisionist history. I think that other than ND, UConn has lost 1 game against the BE in the last 5 or 6 years. And all but a few were huge blowouts that were over early. I fail to see how the AAC is much worse.[/quote]
Hmmm.
For the sake of discussion, if UConn's Conf. schedule for both the BEast and the Ugly American included an equal number of games, it seems logical to me that it may be desirable for Geno to sched. more OOC games vs, for example, Top 25 teams now than before.
If so, then it may be necessary to drop some of the triple-digit RPI "tomato cans" in favor of Top 25 "tomato cans".
Additionally, in some years the BEast was indeed the premier WCB conf.
The people who insist (wish) watching the teams in the UA is no different than watching the teams in the former BEast probably annoy me as much as those who predict (hope) for UConn's demise based upon it being in the UA annoy you.
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linkster
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| Posted: 06/20/14 7:19 pm ::: |
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If so, then it may be necessary to drop some of the triple-digit RPI "tomato cans" in favor of Top 25 "tomato cans".
Additionally, in some years the BEast was indeed the premier WCB conf.
The people who insist (wish) watching the teams in the UA is no different than watching the teams in the former BEast probably annoy me as much as those who predict (hope) for UConn's demise based upon it being in the UA annoy you. |
I wasn't talking about entertainment value, I was talking about competitive value. And I guess you will continue to be annoyed because I don't see any difference between beating one team by 30 and another by 45 and will continue to say so whenever this topic is brought up. Other than Notre Dame I recall a loss to St John's and before that a loss or 2 to Rutgers in the last 8 years or so in the BE. Am I missing something? The fact that the BE was the premier wcbb conference only confirms my point that they were the best of a very mediocre D1. I'd love to see a list of all the entertaining regular season BE games (other than ND) that UConn played in the last half dozen years. Yeah, beating CVS has a certain Schadenfreude aspect that I enjoyed but kicking Villanova's butt all over the court every year wasn't keeping me on the edge of my seat any more than UCF or Phi Slamma Jamma.
I'd love to see UConn in a conference with 5 or 6 teams at or close to UConn's level. But face facts, even if a conference was created with the 2014 Sweet 16 teams there would be only a couple who could actually compete with UConn right now (1?). And UConn already plays most of them.
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ridor
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| Posted: 06/20/14 7:31 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| I'm no historian of wcbb so maybe someone will tell me what "power conference" LA Tech was in when they were still a national power? |
Where did I claim that Louisiana Tech was in a "power conference"? I never said that. I said that Leon Barmore HAD to beef up the OOC schedule in order to counter his weak conference schedule.
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cthskzfn
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| Posted: 06/20/14 7:46 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| Quote: |
If so, then it may be necessary to drop some of the triple-digit RPI "tomato cans" in favor of Top 25 "tomato cans".
Additionally, in some years the BEast was indeed the premier WCB conf.
The people who insist (wish) watching the teams in the UA is no different than watching the teams in the former BEast probably annoy me as much as those who predict (hope) for UConn's demise based upon it being in the UA annoy you. |
I wasn't talking about entertainment value, I was talking about competitive value. And I guess you will continue to be annoyed because I don't see any difference between beating one team by 30 and another by 45 and will continue to say so whenever this topic is brought up. Other than Notre Dame I recall a loss to St John's and before that a loss or 2 to Rutgers in the last 8 years or so in the BE. Am I missing something? The fact that the BE was the premier wcbb conference only confirms my point that they were the best of a very mediocre D1. I'd love to see a list of all the entertaining regular season BE games (other than ND) that UConn played in the last half dozen years. Yeah, beating CVS has a certain Schadenfreude aspect that I enjoyed but kicking Villanova's butt all over the court every year wasn't keeping me on the edge of my seat any more than UCF or Phi Slamma Jamma.
I'd love to see UConn in a conference with 5 or 6 teams at or close to UConn's level. But face facts, even if a conference was created with the 2014 Sweet 16 teams there would be only a couple who could actually compete with UConn right now (1?). And UConn already plays most of them. |
As I will continually say that I would rather watch games vs teams that have players that are AAs and/or are drafted in the W's first rd and/or have decent size.
I would rather watch UConn beat Maryland, for example, w/ players such as Alyssa Thomas, by 25 points than a roster of nobodies at EastDFuckingTulaneSt. by 50.
I understand we approach this differently.
Regardless, I think you missed the point in my previous post. Having fewer T-20, T-15, T-10 teams in the reg. season sched. may necessitate scheduling mo' betta OOC teams. (I laughed when I went back to find that OOC comment which irked you and saw it was made by GMAC. Figures.)
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linkster
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ridor
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| Posted: 06/20/14 8:37 pm ::: |
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| dtbtbtb wrote: |
| UConn did realy well with you not watching the games, however it hard for me to understand how any fan of WBB can ignore the UConn games as that means not watching any final 4 for the last 6 years.... |
Sort of. In 2014, I watched only 1 out of 3 Final Four games (Notre Dame vs Maryland). In 2013, Louisville vs California. In 2012, Baylor vs Stanford & Baylor vs. Notre Dame. In 2011, Stanford vs. Texas A & M, Notre Dame vs Texas A & M. In 2010, Stanford vs Oklahoma. In 2009, Louisville vs. Oklahoma.
In 2008, Tennessee vs LSU, Tennessee vs Stanford.
But in 2005 to 2007, I was able to watch the entire Final Four games which were UConn-free. It is not that bad and easy thing to do. All I have to do is to tell myself mentally that whenever you see UConn reach the NCAA Championship Game, it marked the end of the CWB season for me right there on the spot. No need to watch it any further. I do not want to help nor contribute any Nielsen ratings for UConn at all.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
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beknighted
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| Posted: 06/20/14 8:57 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The Pac 10/12 was never as weak as the AAC, so I'm not sure it's a great comparison. It's at least consistently been a multi-bid conference. I'm not sure I can think of a credible 2nd NCAA team from the new AAC. |
Being better than the AAC is no badge of excellence. During UCLA's reign there was one PAC team with a record over .500. The PAC has never been anything but a collection of "tomato cans" with one jar of caviar and a couple of tuna.
| beknighted wrote: |
I'm not sure the history of what conference a team was in matters that much. However, if you want a comparison that's more like UConn than LaTech, there's ODU. Wendy Larry did quite well for a while, but then it became impossible to maintain a strong enough schedule to be credible.
I'm not saying it's going to happen, as there's only one Geno, but if it does I think it will be a relatively slow decline, like ODU, and at first it won't be obvious. |
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And I'm not saying UConn won't decline after Geno is gone, or that the AAC isn't' a bad conference. I'm just tired of posters who keep talking about their schedule without any supporting evidence.
Did the old Big East provide enough competition that UConn didn't need any top OOC games? I say no. The last 3 years UConn had 3 great games against Notre Dame and little else. In fact we can look at any conference in the country and see 95% of the teams would lose by 30+ to UConn. Let's say UConn moves to the B1G. Would it mean that UConn no longer needs any top level OOC games?
The truth is that there are maybe 10-12 elite level teams in any given year in the entire country. UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford, Duke, UNC, Tenn, Louisville & 3 others that vary year to year. The 7 named are in 4 conferences.
UConn will have 16 AAC games that will be blowouts. The 2 games with USF may also but USF is a nice program that has given both UConn and ND trouble in the past.
The reality of wcbb is that there isn't enough talent. The talent that exists gravitates to a dozen teams scattered across 5 conferences plus UConn. The schedule of every top team is filled with games (in conf and out) that offer no real challenge. UConn may have more of them but not so many more to make a difference.
What the complainers are really saying is that Villanova, Seaton Hall, etc. provide better competition than UCF or Houston. That may be true but there are a lot of recruits in Fla & Texas and UConn having a footprint in those areas has some value. |
I think we actually generally agree. UConn needed some strong OOC games before, but probably will need some more now for tournament positioning. It potentially was an issue last year, as the AAC had Louisville, then a big drop to Rutgers and USF, then a big drop to the rest of the conference. In 2012, it was Louisville, Notre Dame, then 5 other teams that made the tournament. The margin between the Huskies and those teams was certainly narrower than the margin between the Huskies and the 4th through 8th teams in the AAC.
The recruiting point is interesting, although I have to say that Geno probably can recruit from anywhere he wants now.
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ridor
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| Posted: 06/20/14 9:18 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
Your claim was that UConn would fall because they moved to a minor conference and compared them to LA Tech. I pointed out that LA Tech won 3 NC's while playing in a "weak" conference. Barmore never had a tough conference schedule so there was nothing to beef up. Never was. Losing a HOF coach is much more predictive of a fall than a change of conference. Look at Texas, Tenn and LA Tech. All lost HOF coaches and all have fallen, some further than others. I can't think of one wcbb team that moved from a "strong conference" to a "weaker one" and suffered a fall as a result.
OK, maybe Boston College.  |
Barmore had to beef up his OOC schedule stronger to counter his weak conference schedule - he made sure that the annual series with Tennessee is a must on his list. His teams tend to sign up for Hawai'i tournaments, Miami Orange Bowl tournaments, State Farm Tip-Off Classic games. Barmore was not afraid of any team. If a team is up and coming, he'll schedule one - like Stephen F. Austin, Arkansas, Texas Tech, Notre Dame, Virginia, Iowa to name few. The only team that Barmore declined to play was Sue Gunter's LSU.
La Tech used to be independent before joining the American South in 1987 - that was the worst conference - then they joined Sun Belt which is better for La Tech as they often sparred with its nemesis, Western Kentucky as well as playing against the improved teams like Lamar, Arkansas State, UALR, FIU, Denver and Middle Tennessee.
When La Tech left Sun Belt for WAC, that was what killed the WBB team. You could see the program going slowly from 30-5 to 15-15. WAC does not have any team that is consistent to battle La Tech. Fresno State is just an upstart team. Sun Belt? La Tech had Western Kentucky and few upstart teams to back themselves up. WAC? None at all. You could notice that La Tech goes, say ... 8-1 against Top 25 OOC teams per year in 1990s to 1-8 against Top 25 OOC teams in 2000s. Not only that, I recall seeing Leon Barmore bringing his LT alumni (Weatherspoon, Thomas, Johnson, Lacy, Lawrence to name few) to visit and inspire his teams against Top 25 teams at Thomas Assembly Center on national TV.
Did you notice that UConn kept on having alumni players coming to Storrs like Bird, Lobo, Wolters, Berube, Sales, Charles, Taurasi, Moore, especially to the games that featured UConn playing against Top 25 teams? That is what La Tech did, too. UConn folks are doing the EXACT thing that La Tech tried in the past.
As for the AAC, UConn does not have a legitimate nemesis in AAC which explained why Geno was irritated when Notre Dame left. It also explained why Geno and UConn *WANTED* to schedule a game with Notre Dame which Notre Dame does not MIND to play - in fact, Muffet does not have to play UConn but is willing to schedule one. Muffet can just terminate the series with UConn and replace it with something else with a snap of her fingers if she wanted to. On other hand, UConn cannot really terminate the series with Notre Dame and replace it with something else. UConn needed Notre Dame more than Notre Dame needed UConn.
It explained why UConn is trying to cement the series with Stanford, South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, Notre Dame and Baylor. These schools does not really need UConn that much more than UConn NEEDED them.
I'm not saying that UConn will decline in a YEAR or in a SHORT time. It will gradually decline over the years more likely in 10 years. You'll see them winning championships... then you will see them only reach the Final Fours ... then you'll see them reach only the Elite Eights ... then you'll see them reach only Sweet Sixteens. And you'll see them going 0-1 or 1-1 in the first & second rounds. Just like Old Dominion, Western Kentucky and Louisiana Tech. Why? Because the AAC, over the years, will pull UConn down since they do not have any legitimate nemesis to begin with.
As for Tennessee, Purdue, Virginia (and yes, Boston College!) and Rutgers? They're in stronger conferences, so they will have the cycles that will send their programs up and down all the time which I cannot say the same thing for UConn. Now, Louisiana Tech is in CUSA which is better than WAC, they will play Middle Tennessee, UTEP, Charlotte & FIU - they're decent teams. But I contend to think that Louisiana Tech should join the Big 12 Conference, though.
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FollowtheCardinalRule
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| Posted: 06/20/14 9:43 pm ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
| linkster wrote: |
Your claim was that UConn would fall because they moved to a minor conference and compared them to LA Tech. I pointed out that LA Tech won 3 NC's while playing in a "weak" conference. Barmore never had a tough conference schedule so there was nothing to beef up. Never was. Losing a HOF coach is much more predictive of a fall than a change of conference. Look at Texas, Tenn and LA Tech. All lost HOF coaches and all have fallen, some further than others. I can't think of one wcbb team that moved from a "strong conference" to a "weaker one" and suffered a fall as a result.
OK, maybe Boston College. |
Barmore had to beef up his OOC schedule stronger to counter his weak conference schedule - he made sure that the annual series with Tennessee is a must on his list. His teams tend to sign up for Hawai'i tournaments, Miami Orange Bowl tournaments, State Farm Tip-Off Classic games. Barmore was not afraid of any team. If a team is up and coming, he'll schedule one - like Stephen F. Austin, Arkansas, Texas Tech, Notre Dame, Virginia, Iowa to name few. The only team that Barmore declined to play was Sue Gunter's LSU.
La Tech used to be independent before joining the American South in 1987 - that was the worst conference - then they joined Sun Belt which is better for La Tech as they often sparred with its nemesis, Western Kentucky as well as playing against the improved teams like Lamar, Arkansas State, UALR, FIU, Denver and Middle Tennessee.
When La Tech left Sun Belt for WAC, that was what killed the WBB team. You could see the program going slowly from 30-5 to 15-15. WAC does not have any team that is consistent to battle La Tech. Fresno State is just an upstart team. Sun Belt? La Tech had Western Kentucky and few upstart teams to back themselves up. WAC? None at all. You could notice that La Tech goes, say ... 8-1 against Top 25 OOC teams per year in 1990s to 1-8 against Top 25 OOC teams in 2000s. Not only that, I recall seeing Leon Barmore bringing his LT alumni (Weatherspoon, Thomas, Johnson, Lacy, Lawrence to name few) to visit and inspire his teams against Top 25 teams at Thomas Assembly Center on national TV.
Did you notice that UConn kept on having alumni players coming to Storrs like Bird, Lobo, Wolters, Berube, Sales, Charles, Taurasi, Moore, especially to the games that featured UConn playing against Top 25 teams? That is what La Tech did, too. UConn folks are doing the EXACT thing that La Tech tried in the past.
As for the AAC, UConn does not have a legitimate nemesis in AAC which explained why Geno was irritated when Notre Dame left. It also explained why Geno and UConn *WANTED* to schedule a game with Notre Dame which Notre Dame does not MIND to play - in fact, Muffet does not have to play UConn but is willing to schedule one. Muffet can just terminate the series with UConn and replace it with something else with a snap of her fingers if she wanted to. On other hand, UConn cannot really terminate the series with Notre Dame and replace it with something else. UConn needed Notre Dame more than Notre Dame needed UConn.
It explained why UConn is trying to cement the series with Stanford, South Carolina, North Carolina, Duke, Notre Dame and Baylor. These schools does not really need UConn that much more than UConn NEEDED them.
I'm not saying that UConn will decline in a YEAR or in a SHORT time. It will gradually decline over the years more likely in 10 years. You'll see them winning championships... then you will see them only reach the Final Fours ... then you'll see them reach only the Elite Eights ... then you'll see them reach only Sweet Sixteens. And you'll see them going 0-1 or 1-1 in the first & second rounds. Just like Old Dominion, Western Kentucky and Louisiana Tech. Why? Because the AAC, over the years, will pull UConn down since they do not have any legitimate nemesis to begin with.
As for Tennessee, Purdue, Virginia (and yes, Boston College!) and Rutgers? They're in stronger conferences, so they will have the cycles that will send their programs up and down all the time which I cannot say the same thing for UConn. Now, Louisiana Tech is in CUSA which is better than WAC, they will play Middle Tennessee, UTEP, Charlotte & FIU - they're decent teams. But I contend to think that Louisiana Tech should join the Big 12 Conference, though.
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Does LA Tech even have a football program at the BCS Level? I don't think I need to remind you that conferences are driven by football rather than Women's Basketball.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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Location: Frederick, Maryland
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| Posted: 06/20/14 9:50 pm ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| As for Ridor, I don't understand your vehemence for UConn, I certainly dislike the dynasty they have--partly because they've played the villain in Stanford's quest for a title on numerous occasions; however, there are moments when Stanford is given the momentous chance to be a part of history that makes the fans excited. I would point out when Stanford ended "the streak" it was a huge accomplishment by the program--yet they fell short of a title. I appreciate everything that Geno brings--and what his teams offer--even if I think they get away with things sometimes because of the aura that surrounds the program. Sure, I'd be delighted to see some new blood to start pulling some punches and to end the dominance of UConn--but hey, it takes hard work and dedication to the game to be worthy of winning championships. |
I could list the reasons on why I absolutely am fed up with UConn Huskies. It boils down to the UConn Huskies fans themselves. They ruined it all for me to enjoy the sport. I missed the camaraderie of the sport, especially at Final Four and WBCA Conventions. Today, almost everyone I knew is guarded of what they wanted to say. In private, they told me that UConn coaches, media & fans has changed the climate of the sport. It is not a good feeling for many. Maybe it was inevitable.
1) The treatment of Elena Delle Donne by UConn fans for five years were appalling. Very few UConn fans lambasted their own fans when they bullied EDD. Often, few good UConn fans stood in silence as their fans hurled insults at EDD. Officially, Geno wished EDD well but he was silent when his fans bullied EDD on many occasions on Rebkell, ESPN, DelawareOnline & Hartford Courant. Geno was in a position where he can influence others and he was totally silent on EDD bullying.
(As a fan of Virginia Cavaliers, I remembered that the UVa fans were frustrated with Clemson after posting 4th straight loss to Clemson in Charlottesville, its fans were abusive towards Clemson and guess what Debbie Ryan did next? She grabbed the microphone to scold her own fans for doing that. And she left few comments in the local press about it. That is classy of her to do that. Geno could have done the same thing about the bullying on EDD but he never did which led me to believe that he approved of that)
2) UConn fans repeatedly went into Knoxville's local sports website just to attack Pat Summitt and Tennessee each time they splashed an announcement on recruiting, scheduling, coach changes et al. It was so bad that I stopped reading the comments by fans.
3) As you can see many non-UConn articles on ESPN, they are often hijacked by UConn fans into something about UConn, much to my chagrin. Why can't we enjoy an article without UConn fans coming in to bully others?
These persistent behavior has turned me off big-time. I lost the desire nor interest to watch the CWB games as of lately. I must admit that as of lately, I started to watch more of men's games than women's games ... why? Because I was turned off by UConn fans' behavior towards others, especially via the internet. I stopped going to WBCA Conventions. I stopped going to the Final Fours in 2001. I cannot really enjoy the atmosphere with UConn fans behaving like that out there. I'm sure that few UConn fans are nice but the majority of them - oh, lord. Spare me the BS.
I can promise you one thing, FollowTheCardinalRule, that after I posted this - UConn fans WILL post things that dispute what I saw and felt all along in 1st place. They will hurl or belittle me with insults. I expected that. And you wonder why I have such a disdain feeling for UConn?
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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Location: Frederick, Maryland
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| Posted: 06/20/14 9:54 pm ::: |
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| FollowtheCardinalRule wrote: |
| Does LA Tech even have a football program at the BCS Level? I don't think I need to remind you that conferences are driven by football rather than Women's Basketball. |
Yeah, La Tech lacked that - it is their Achilles Heel to begin with. I still think Big 12 should give them a chance - they will make it competitive for others. And eventually improve its football position.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 06/20/14 11:05 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| Did you notice that UConn kept on having alumni players coming to Storrs like Bird, Lobo, Wolters, Berube, Sales, Charles, Taurasi, Moore, especially to the games that featured UConn playing against Top 25 teams? That is what La Tech did, too. UConn folks are doing the EXACT thing that La Tech tried in the past. |
I guess you are right. But UConn was doing that in 1997. And it's something that Tenn still does. Any school where a coach has had success and longevity would have the same.
| Quote: |
| The BEast regularly had half a dozen teams that were nigh unto locks for the NCAA, plus a couple of others that had a reasonable chance. That had three different impacts - first, it gave UConn more in-conference opportunities for quality wins; and, second, it made UConn have to work harder for its wins than it will going forward; and, third, it boosted the credible UConn opponents' RPIs, etc., further burnishing UConn's credentials. In the AAC, all of these impacts, plus having even a single credible opponent, will be going away. |
True. And the day will come when that will hurt UConn. But if UConn were to play, say, UNC's OOC, I'd almost like to hear the whinning from some one seed that gets UConn as their 4 seed because UConn's RPI is 25+. LOL
But if having a high RPI is the goal, then yes, UConn is dependent on playing top OOC (actually, top 50 RPI). But at this point I don't think UConn would lose a game if they were a 16 seed. The goal is a NC and all UConn needs is to get in.
And yes, the day will come when UConn slides down the rankings and melds into the mass of mediocrity. It happens to all dynasties. When Geno leaves is the likely tipping point. But right now 9 year-old girls "dream of playing for UConn" and as long as UConn can play efficient and eye-pleasing basketball, ESPN and CBS will "convince" opponents to schedule them by explaining that they get on national TV if they schedule UConn. And believe it, ESPN has billions to distribute. TV money was never a factor when the LA Techs and ODU's were on top. Most of the ESPN pie goes to football and men's basketball but there are enough crumbs for UConn to fund it's wbb program. And that's really the advantage of a power conference, the money, not the competition.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 06/21/14 8:09 am ::: |
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I can see why Geno is Ridor's boogeyman.
The popularity "explosion" of WCB coincides w/ UConn's rise to the top.
Geno's was a deserved, albeit unwelcome, invitation to the old girl's club party in 1991. However, he has since, essentially, had the audacity to kick down the door and move in. The noive!
Add in the annoying ESPN limelight and unprecedented media coverage since 1995...I think Ridor's whining is justified.
One thing is certain, though, Geno SHOULD have stormed the court at the 2013 Bridgeport regional, grabbed the mic, and scolded those heartless UConn fans for giving EDD a rousing ovation.
I guess Pat, Wendy, and Leon would have.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 06/21/14 7:50 pm ::: |
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| linkster wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The BEast regularly had half a dozen teams that were nigh unto locks for the NCAA, plus a couple of others that had a reasonable chance. That had three different impacts - first, it gave UConn more in-conference opportunities for quality wins; and, second, it made UConn have to work harder for its wins than it will going forward; and, third, it boosted the credible UConn opponents' RPIs, etc., further burnishing UConn's credentials. In the AAC, all of these impacts, plus having even a single credible opponent, will be going away. |
True. And the day will come when that will hurt UConn. But if UConn were to play, say, UNC's OOC, I'd almost like to hear the whinning from some one seed that gets UConn as their 4 seed because UConn's RPI is 25+. LOL
But if having a high RPI is the goal, then yes, UConn is dependent on playing top OOC (actually, top 50 RPI). But at this point I don't think UConn would lose a game if they were a 16 seed. The goal is a NC and all UConn needs is to get in.
And yes, the day will come when UConn slides down the rankings and melds into the mass of mediocrity. It happens to all dynasties. When Geno leaves is the likely tipping point. But right now 9 year-old girls "dream of playing for UConn" and as long as UConn can play efficient and eye-pleasing basketball, ESPN and CBS will "convince" opponents to schedule them by explaining that they get on national TV if they schedule UConn. And believe it, ESPN has billions to distribute. TV money was never a factor when the LA Techs and ODU's were on top. Most of the ESPN pie goes to football and men's basketball but there are enough crumbs for UConn to fund it's wbb program. And that's really the advantage of a power conference, the money, not the competition. |
Who you play has an impact on where girls want to go, too, and that's important. Again, at least initially that won't be a big problem at UConn, given the history of success, but it could be down the road.
I also think it's worth remembering that a tougher path is a tougher path. If you get a 2 seed instead of a 1 seed, it's not that big a deal until the Sweet 16, but then you get a 3 instead of a 4 as an opponent, and a 1 instead of a 2 in the regional final. If all of your RPI top 50 wins come before January 1, it's going to be tougher getting that 1 seed. (If the AAC is as stinky as it looks next year, I do think that UConn could force the committee to break its to-date unbroken pattern of not giving a 1 seed to a team with an RPI worse than 6, though.)
I don't see any of this as a today problem. It's at least a few years down the road, and maybe not until Geno retires (which, as I think everyone agrees, will change things no matter what conference UConn is in). I personally hope that the Huskies find a better home before that happens, but these days not much is certain for them.
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Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
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Location: OREGON (in my heart)
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| Posted: 06/21/14 10:13 pm ::: |
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Interesting thread. Of course, it's always interesting, living in The Land of Hypotheticals, especially when they are compared to Past Histories whose supporting factors no longer exist.
Immaculata. Old Dominion. Texas. LaTech. Tennessee. These powers all waxed and waned in leagues and under circumstances that, in some cases, don't even exist any more.
As deserving as each of the above institutions may have been of their laurels, there's also a lot differences in the *details* of how/when/why they could accomplish what they did. Some of the biggest differences between then and now would have to include things such as overall parity, nationwide, between leagues and schools, and the sheer numbers of Elite Quality Players available.
UConn, in this current era of exceptional talent (quality and numbers) and coaching, has risen to the top of the heap; to deny that is absurd. To me, what is most exciting is that there really ARE some (10 or so?) elite programs that may be their equals in the next 2-3 years. This is good for our game.
And though UConn's *Top Dog* status is secure for now, people forget that they did, in fact, NOT win the NC in '11, or '12. Heck, they didn't even make the FF as recently as '05 or '06. They are, after all, very mortal. Very talented, very well-coached, but ..... very mortal. 
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
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Location: Frederick, Maryland
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| Posted: 06/22/14 7:02 am ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
I can see why Geno is Ridor's boogeyman.
The popularity "explosion" of WCB coincides w/ UConn's rise to the top.
Geno's was a deserved, albeit unwelcome, invitation to the old girl's club party in 1991. However, he has since, essentially, had the audacity to kick down the door and move in. The noive!
Add in the annoying ESPN limelight and unprecedented media coverage since 1995...I think Ridor's whining is justified.
One thing is certain, though, Geno SHOULD have stormed the court at the 2013 Bridgeport regional, grabbed the mic, and scolded those heartless UConn fans for giving EDD a rousing ovation.
I guess Pat, Wendy, and Leon would have. |
There you go again. Throwing some sarcasm on this subject. As for a rousing ovation in Bridgeport Regional, UConn fans were not the only one who gave her a rousing ovation. Geno was aware that EDD was bullied left and right for five years. During the 5 years, Geno could have say something to the press in urging his own fans to halt the incessant bashings on EDD (and Pat Summitt after she announced that she has dementia) but Geno chose to do nothing about it. I'm not talking about the Bridgeport Regional incident - it happened only once. As for EDD & Pat being bullied and tarred did not happen only once. It happened every week, every game that EDD played, every game that Pat lost the game. I know because I saw it all.
The point is that you were aware that she (and Pat) was being bullied left and right for five years and you did do nothing to curb that. I never saw you or others step in to tell your own fans to stop bullying. In addition, your snide remarks just proved me that I'm right. Just take a good look at your own comments on me. When I try to bring the valid points, what do you do? You became defensive and behaved like a little child. You need to show some respect for fans like myself. Your comments are the exact reason on why I can't stand the UCows freaks.
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ucbart
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 2815
Location: New York
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| Posted: 06/22/14 7:52 am ::: |
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| ridor wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
I can see why Geno is Ridor's boogeyman.
The popularity "explosion" of WCB coincides w/ UConn's rise to the top.
Geno's was a deserved, albeit unwelcome, invitation to the old girl's club party in 1991. However, he has since, essentially, had the audacity to kick down the door and move in. The noive!
Add in the annoying ESPN limelight and unprecedented media coverage since 1995...I think Ridor's whining is justified.
One thing is certain, though, Geno SHOULD have stormed the court at the 2013 Bridgeport regional, grabbed the mic, and scolded those heartless UConn fans for giving EDD a rousing ovation.
I guess Pat, Wendy, and Leon would have. |
There you go again. Throwing some sarcasm on this subject. As for a rousing ovation in Bridgeport Regional, UConn fans were not the only one who gave her a rousing ovation. Geno was aware that EDD was bullied left and right for five years. During the 5 years, Geno could have say something to the press in urging his own fans to halt the incessant bashings on EDD (and Pat Summitt after she announced that she has dementia) but Geno chose to do nothing about it. I'm not talking about the Bridgeport Regional incident - it happened only once. As for EDD & Pat being bullied and tarred did not happen only once. It happened every week, every game that EDD played, every game that Pat lost the game. I know because I saw it all.
The point is that you were aware that she (and Pat) was being bullied left and right for five years and you did do nothing to curb that. I never saw you or others step in to tell your own fans to stop bullying. In addition, your snide remarks just proved me that I'm right. Just take a good look at your own comments on me. When I try to bring the valid points, what do you do? You became defensive and behaved like a little child. You need to show some respect for fans like myself. Your comments are the exact reason on why I can't stand the UCows freaks.
R- |
So.....let me get this straight. You hate everything UCONN, don't even watch our games and spoke about UCONN fans hijacking threads and such. Yet, whenever you get the chance to hijack a thread and spew your hatred, you do it. If you see a thread with UCONN in it the title, why read it? Your outlook is quite sad.
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ridor
Joined: 18 Oct 2005
Posts: 1055
Location: Frederick, Maryland
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| Posted: 06/22/14 2:24 pm ::: |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| So.....let me get this straight. You hate everything UCONN, don't even watch our games and spoke about UCONN fans hijacking threads and such. Yet, whenever you get the chance to hijack a thread and spew your hatred, you do it. If you see a thread with UCONN in it the title, why read it? Your outlook is quite sad. |
Once again you put the words in my mouth when I never said that myself. I don't hate. I said I cannot stand them. Hate is too strong of a word. I cannot allow it to consume me. It is such a waste of one's energy and effort. I simply cannot stand it. You said whenever I get the chance to hijack the thread to spew hatred, I would do it on UConn threads.
Normally in the past, I rarely leave any comment on UConn threads unless it involved few teams that I enjoyed like, UNC, Maryland, Virginia, Louisiana Tech, Old Dominion and James Madison. But after seeing UCows freaks hijacking so many non-UConn threads on ESPN, GoVolsXtra and others - it is fitting that I return the same favor on your UConn threads in full. What you sow, you reap.
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Phil
Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 1274
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| Posted: 06/22/14 8:27 pm ::: |
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| Even if you are correct that others are jerks, that isn't a license to be a jerk. I like the expression "What you sow, you reap" but you are misusing it.
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