RebKell's Junkie Boards
Board Junkies Forums
 
Log in Register FAQ Memberlist Search RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index

Transfer "releases": policies, practice, evidence,
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/20/14 6:06 pm    ::: Transfer "releases": policies, practice, evidence, Reply Reply with quote

The subject of transfer "releases" is coming up in the Leti Romero and Diamond DeShields threads. I thought I'd consolidate the issue to capture additional research and comments.

I have stated my assumption that many or most schools have written release policies like KSU's. My initial research is not confirming that, as I am 0-2 in finding written policies as definitive as KSU's.

The UConn Student-Athlete Handbook doesn't state a policy. It merely suggests that the Athletic Director has discretion to grant or deny permission-to-contact ("release") letters and that student-athletes have the right to appeal a denial to an independent committee. This appeal right is required at all schools by the NCAA D1 Regulations.

Next, I found the University of North Carolina's Student-Athlete Handbook. It is ambigous and opaque. It says:

"The Department of Athletics’ philosophy regarding a student-athlete transferring from UNC to another institution is that the student-athlete will be required to fulfill a one-year residence requirement prior to being eligible to participate in outside competition."

It goes on to say the AD's decision can be appealed.

This statement of "philosophy" makes sense in terms of the "one-time transfer" (OTT) exception to the NCAA one-year residency requirement. I haven't discussed the OTT exception because it doesn't apply to basketball athletes. Where it does apply, the OTT athlete will not have to sit out a year if the current school grants a "release" from the residency requirement. This UNC statement seems clearly to say that UNC will not generally grant releases in OTT situations. This means UNC wants to preserve the one-year residency requirement as a deterrent to OTT-eligible athletes, which are those in sports other than basketball, football, baseball and hockey.

However, basketball athletes at UNC would not be eligible for OTT, and hence must sit out one year under the general transfer rule. So, does this statement mean that UNC is also "philosophically" inclined against regular (permission-to-contact) transfer releases or, alternatively, that UNC is neutral or even favorable to regular transfer releases because regular transfers all have the one-year residency requirement? Fancy lawyers could probably argue it both ways. The key is to know UNC's practice in interpreting this statement of philosophy, which I don't.

I have asked Beknighted whether he has access to the Rutgers transfer release policy, assuming it's written.

Based on what I'm reading about MCBB, it looks like free transferability would be chaotic, but I'll save that issue for a later post.


beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/20/14 7:58 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Rutgers has a multi-step procedure, but the policy contains no specific guidance on when releases will be granted except that they won't be granted for AAC schools (which apparently is an AAC rule) for football and basketball. Presumably that provision will be altered soon.

As noted in another thread, I'm not aware of someone asking for a release from the RU WBB program and not having it granted.

Here's a link to the policy document. The transfer language starts at section 11.6.

It's our policy


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/20/14 8:13 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Policy, policy, where art thou?

Looking at Student-Athlete handbooks, which seem to be very common, Stanford and Duke don't even mention the subject of transfers.

Rutgers essentially says releases are at the discretion of the coach or "if necessary" the AD. (I'm looking at a different version than the one I just noticed Beknighted posted.)

Tennessee says releases will be consdered on a "case-by-case basis".

However, the UTenn handbook then goes on to specify: "Granting permission to contact does not mean that the student-athlete will be released to transfer to another institution under the one-time transfer exception . . ." Hence Tennessee seems to want the deterrent effect of the one year residency requirement for OTT-eligible athletes.

I recall around the time Sa'de Wiley Gatewood was fighting with Tennessee about a transfer, Micki DeMoss was quoted as saying that, during the many years she was was at UTK, the practice was not to grant releases. I also recall SWG or her father saying that PHS would not grant her a release at the end of her freshman year, but wanted SWG to stay for a second year and then reconsider. This sounds exactly like the compromise KSU has offered Romero. In SWG's case, she and probably her father apparently continued to make such a fuss that she was released in December of her sophomore year.


ladydawgs96



Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Posts: 734
Location: Georgia


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 5:19 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Policy, policy, where art thou?

Looking at Student-Athlete handbooks, which seem to be very common, Stanford and Duke don't even mention the subject of transfers.

Rutgers essentially says releases are at the discretion of the coach or "if necessary" the AD. (I'm looking at a different version than the one I just noticed Beknighted posted.)

Tennessee says releases will be consdered on a "case-by-case basis".

However, the UTenn handbook then goes on to specify: "Granting permission to contact does not mean that the student-athlete will be released to transfer to another institution under the one-time transfer exception . . ." Hence Tennessee seems to want the deterrent effect of the one year residency requirement for OTT-eligible athletes.

I recall around the time Sa'de Wiley Gatewood was fighting with Tennessee about a transfer, Micki DeMoss was quoted as saying that, during the many years she was was at UTK, the practice was not to grant releases. I also recall SWG or her father saying that PHS would not grant her a release at the end of her freshman year, but wanted SWG to stay for a second year and then reconsider. This sounds exactly like the compromise KSU has offered Romero. In SWG's case, she and probably her father apparently continued to make such a fuss that she was released in December of her sophomore year.


But then, in the case of Lindsay Moss, PHS granted a release easily to allow her to transfer to UGA


snzuluz



Joined: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 191



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 8:14 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

athletes sign a NLI with a SCHOOL and not a coach…it is the AD that releases a student-athlete from their scholarship and not the coach…

this is a recruiting question all AAU, High School coaches, or parents need to ask on a recruiting visit…educating yourselves is the best policy

the NLI site has lots of information on releases and so does the NCAA


summertime blues



Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7841
Location: Shenandoah Valley


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 8:35 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Policy, policy, where art thou?

Looking at Student-Athlete handbooks, which seem to be very common, Stanford and Duke don't even mention the subject of transfers.

Rutgers essentially says releases are at the discretion of the coach or "if necessary" the AD. (I'm looking at a different version than the one I just noticed Beknighted posted.)

Tennessee says releases will be consdered on a "case-by-case basis".

However, the UTenn handbook then goes on to specify: "Granting permission to contact does not mean that the student-athlete will be released to transfer to another institution under the one-time transfer exception . . ." Hence Tennessee seems to want the deterrent effect of the one year residency requirement for OTT-eligible athletes.

I recall around the time Sa'de Wiley Gatewood was fighting with Tennessee about a transfer, Micki DeMoss was quoted as saying that, during the many years she was was at UTK, the practice was not to grant releases. I also recall SWG or her father saying that PHS would not grant her a release at the end of her freshman year, but wanted SWG to stay for a second year and then reconsider. This sounds exactly like the compromise KSU has offered Romero. In SWG's case, she and probably her father apparently continued to make such a fuss that she was released in December of her sophomore year.


I remember several transfers out of Tennessee to D-I, particularly in later years…..April McDivitt to UCSB, Lyssi Brewer to UCLA, Sybil Dosty to Arizona State, Lindsey Moss to UGA, plus some others to smaller programs, and not much fuss was made. Wiley-Gatewood was just one. Apparently her father was a real pain in the patoot, and from stories I heard, what he said could not necessarily be trusted. I have no idea what he was like for Brenda to deal with. Sa'de's complaint was reportedly that she could not play "her game" at UT (sounds like Daddy talking) but I gather her knees gave out at Maryland because we never heard much from her after she left. That experience was Part of what made fans, and I think also the coaching staff, wary of Kaela Davis from the beginning. Quite the "stage mom" there!



_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 8:37 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Yeah, with the advent of the whole internet thingy, claiming ignorance and saying there is a "lack of information" or that prospective student-athletes are uniformed is really a lame excuse in today's world. If they claim they don't understand it, I would look in the mirror, then look at mom &/or dad, then the HS coach, then the AAU coach. I mean, there is just no reason for someone to not understand the National Letter of Intent.

A simple use of "google" turned up this website:

http://www.nationalletter.org/

Lots and lots of information here.


Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 10:33 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
Yeah, with the advent of the whole internet thingy, claiming ignorance and saying there is a "lack of information" or that prospective student-athletes are uniformed is really a lame excuse in today's world. If they claim they don't understand it, I would look in the mirror, then look at mom &/or dad, then the HS coach, then the AAU coach. I mean, there is just no reason for someone to not understand the National Letter of Intent.

A simple use of "google" turned up this website:http://www.nationalletter.org/
Lots and lots of information here.


I agree with you, but many people don't read the fine print. Example: Brittney Griner didn't read Baylor's policy on sexuality (nor did her parents, nor anyone else in her life, apparently) before she committed to BU. She could have gone elsewhere and not spent four years so confused and resentful.


PUmatty



Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16358
Location: Chicago


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 10:38 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

I think the bigger problem is that people don't know what they don't know.


purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 11:21 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Carol Anne wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
Yeah, with the advent of the whole internet thingy, claiming ignorance and saying there is a "lack of information" or that prospective student-athletes are uniformed is really a lame excuse in today's world. If they claim they don't understand it, I would look in the mirror, then look at mom &/or dad, then the HS coach, then the AAU coach. I mean, there is just no reason for someone to not understand the National Letter of Intent.

A simple use of "google" turned up this website:http://www.nationalletter.org/
Lots and lots of information here.


I agree with you, but many people don't read the fine print. Example: Brittney Griner didn't read Baylor's policy on sexuality (nor did her parents, nor anyone else in her life, apparently) before she committed to BU. She could have gone elsewhere and not spent four years so confused and resentful.


Well that is strictly a Baylor University thing, not an athletic department, women's basketball or NLI thing at all. Completely different issue as it pertains to the school. I'm sure places like Liberty University and others have something similar in their school bylaws.


Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 1739
Location: Seattle


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 11:34 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

purduefanatic wrote:
Carol Anne wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
Yeah, with the advent of the whole internet thingy, claiming ignorance and saying there is a "lack of information" or that prospective student-athletes are uniformed is really a lame excuse in today's world. If they claim they don't understand it, I would look in the mirror, then look at mom &/or dad, then the HS coach, then the AAU coach. I mean, there is just no reason for someone to not understand the National Letter of Intent.

A simple use of "google" turned up this website:http://www.nationalletter.org/
Lots and lots of information here.


I agree with you, but many people don't read the fine print. Example: Brittney Griner didn't read Baylor's policy on sexuality (nor did her parents, nor anyone else in her life, apparently) before she committed to BU. She could have gone elsewhere and not spent four years so confused and resentful.


Well that is strictly a Baylor University thing, not an athletic department, women's basketball or NLI thing at all. Completely different issue as it pertains to the school. I'm sure places like Liberty University and others have something similar in their school bylaws.

I meant Griner's situation as an example of how kids and parents don't read the documents they should, not specifically about sexuality or Baylor.


purduefanatic



Joined: 10 Aug 2011
Posts: 2819
Location: Indiana


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 11:42 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Carol Anne wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
Carol Anne wrote:
purduefanatic wrote:
Yeah, with the advent of the whole internet thingy, claiming ignorance and saying there is a "lack of information" or that prospective student-athletes are uniformed is really a lame excuse in today's world. If they claim they don't understand it, I would look in the mirror, then look at mom &/or dad, then the HS coach, then the AAU coach. I mean, there is just no reason for someone to not understand the National Letter of Intent.

A simple use of "google" turned up this website:http://www.nationalletter.org/
Lots and lots of information here.


I agree with you, but many people don't read the fine print. Example: Brittney Griner didn't read Baylor's policy on sexuality (nor did her parents, nor anyone else in her life, apparently) before she committed to BU. She could have gone elsewhere and not spent four years so confused and resentful.


Well that is strictly a Baylor University thing, not an athletic department, women's basketball or NLI thing at all. Completely different issue as it pertains to the school. I'm sure places like Liberty University and others have something similar in their school bylaws.

I meant Griner's situation as an example of how kids and parents don't read the documents they should, not specifically about sexuality or Baylor.


Ah, I was just looking at it from a purely athletic department, NLI transfer/release situation.


IM in OC



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 999
Location: Orange County, CA


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 12:11 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

The site could be interpreted as vague and might be misleading, especially to a foreign student/athlete or parent.

From the section called "About the National Letter of Intent"

"By signing a National Letter of Intent, a prospective student-athlete agrees to attend the designated college or university for one academic year". Pursuant to the terms of the National Letter of Intent program, participating institutions agree to provide athletics financial aid to the student-athlete, provided he/she is admitted to the institution and is eligible for financial aid under NCAA rules. An important provision of the National Letter of Intent program is a recruiting prohibition applied after a prospective student-athlete signs a Letter of Intent. This prohibition requires participating institutions to cease recruitment of a prospective student-athlete once a National Letter of Intent is signed with another institution.

Is it possible the girl from KSU, who is from Spain or Italy(dont remember which), or Diamond DeShields from the USA, interpreted that to mean she is only obligated to one year and can then leave and or be recruited by another school once the year is up?


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 12:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Of course there have been transfers in WCBB, but Romero-gate presents a very specific transfer issue from among several interesting transfer issues.

Romero-gate raises the precise issue of whether schools commonly or uncommonly grant (a) permission-to-contact letters (PTC releases), to (b) a post-freshman, non-NLI player for (c) a transfer based solely on a coaching change, where (d) the departed coach isn't coaching anywhere else, and (e) the requesting athlete is a valued and uninjured star of the team.

Stated negatively, here is what the Romero issue is NOT:

1. A release from a National Letter of Intent (NLI). The issue of getting released from a NLI arises most frequently for high school students who change their mind between the signing date in November of their senior year and when they first enroll in the university. Often these NLI releases are prompted by coaching changes in that interim. These releases seem to be granted fairly frequently. But the Romero and Deshields cases have nothing to do with their NLI's because presumably those contracts will have been fulfilled and expired. (Tangent: Elsewhere, I have argued that top athletes should not sign NLI's.)

2. A permission-to-contact (PTC) release for an unproductive player of little value, or a "problem player", who the coach wants to get rid of. If the coach doesn't like or want a player, he/she may not only be receptive to a PTC release, but may affirmatively encourage it. Knowing UConn best, I would say that most of the UConn transfers this century were of this type: Geno probably encouraged or even pushed for them.

3. A PTC release where the player is injured and wants to play closer to home or nearer some medical facility. Again, this is a relatively easy-to-swallow PTC release situation for a coach, either because this is a genuine sympathy situation or one where the player has lost value due to the injury. Some of the Tennessee transfers come to mind re this scenario.

4. Other PTC release situations where the athlete has some compelling personal situation that is uniquely burdensome to her, such as needing to be near sick family, being consumed with profound homesickness, wanting to be near a spouse or significant other, wanting to be at a school with a better courses in her major. These are all specialized situations, unique to one player, for which the KSU policy would seemingly approve a PTC release.

5. A PTC release based solely on a coaching change where the coach is now at another school. There might be some sympathy here by the current school to let a non-NLI student follow the coach who recruited her, but we are now firmly in a scenario where the transfer would be against the interests of the current school.

6. Same as 5 except that the departed coach is not currently coaching. The smidgeon of sympathy for the established player-coach relationship and loyalty is now completely absent. Even here, a PTC release might be considered if the player is a mediocre contributor or bench player.

7. Same as 6 except the player who wants the transfer is the star of the team.

The transfer questions most applicable to Romero-gate are how many category 7 players do we see transferring, and how many of those can we be sure got PTC releases (as opposed to paying their own way or getting academic financial aid at their transfer-to school for a year).

The one data point re a category 7 situation in WCBB I know of is Romero, and she didn't get a PTC release. But I'm positive my knowledge and recall of all these situations is very limited.


IM in OC



Joined: 25 Mar 2009
Posts: 999
Location: Orange County, CA


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 12:54 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Of course there have been transfers in WCBB, but Romero-gate presents a very specific transfer issue from among several interesting transfer issues.

Romero-gate raises the precise issue of whether schools commonly or uncommonly grant (a) permission-to-contact letters (PTC releases), to (b) a post-freshman, non-NLI player for (c) a transfer based solely on a coaching change, where (d) the departed coach isn't coaching anywhere else, and (e) the requesting athlete is a valued and uninjured star of the team.

Stated negatively, here is what the Romero issue is NOT:

1. A release from a National Letter of Intent (NLI). The issue of getting released from a NLI arises most frequently for high school students who change their mind between the signing date in November of their senior year and when they first enroll in the university. Often these NLI releases are prompted by coaching changes in that interim. These releases seem to be granted fairly frequently. But the Romero and Deshields cases have nothing to do with their NLI's because presumably those contracts will have been fulfilled and expired. (Tangent: Elsewhere, I have argued that top athletes should not sign NLI's.)

2. A permission-to-contact (PTC) release for an unproductive player of little value, or a "problem player", who the coach wants to get rid of. If the coach doesn't like or want a player, he/she may not only be receptive to a PTC release, but may affirmatively encourage it. Knowing UConn best, I would say that most of the UConn transfers this century were of this type: Geno probably encouraged or even pushed for them.

3. A PTC release where the player is injured and wants to play closer to home or nearer some medical facility. Again, this is a relatively easy-to-swallow PTC release situation for a coach, either because this is a genuine sympathy situation or one where the player has lost value due to the injury. Some of the Tennessee transfers come to mind re this scenario.

4. Other PTC release situations where the athlete has some compelling personal situation that is uniquely burdensome to her, such as needing to be near sick family, being consumed with profound homesickness, wanting to be near a spouse or significant other, wanting to be at a school with a better courses in her major. These are all specialized situations, unique to one player, for which the KSU policy would seemingly approve a PTC release.

5. A PTC release based solely on a coaching change where the coach is now at another school. There might be some sympathy here by the current school to let a non-NLI student follow the coach who recruited her, but we are now firmly in a scenario where the transfer would be against the interests of the current school.

6. Same as 5 except that the departed coach is not currently coaching. The smidgeon of sympathy for the established player-coach relationship and loyalty is now completely absent. Even here, a PTC release might be considered if the player is a mediocre contributor or bench player.

7. Same as 6 except the player who wants the transfer is the star of the team.

The transfer questions most applicable to Romero-gate are how many category 7 players do we see transferring, and how many of those can we be sure got PTC releases (as opposed to paying their own way or getting academic financial aid at their transfer-to school for a year).

The one data point re a category 7 situation in WCBB I know of is Romero, and she didn't get a PTC release. But I'm positive my knowledge and recall of all these situations is very limited.


Besides a NLI, what else does a student/parent sign regarding their rights to stay/leave a school? I am guessing they receive a school manual(as the one from Rutgers, posted on this site, that I glanced at) regarding athletes and rules. Do they sign an acknowledgement of, and understanding of, the rules regarding transferring? Is it in legaleeze? Would a reasonable person expect a foreign student athlete and their family to understand it?


Matt5762



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 607



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 12:59 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


beknighted



Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 2:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
1. A release from a National Letter of Intent (NLI). The issue of getting released from a NLI arises most frequently for high school students who change their mind between the signing date in November of their senior year and when they first enroll in the university. Often these NLI releases are prompted by coaching changes in that interim. These releases seem to be granted fairly frequently. But the Romero and Deshields cases have nothing to do with their NLI's because presumably those contracts will have been fulfilled and expired. (Tangent: Elsewhere, I have argued that top athletes should not sign NLI's.)

2. A permission-to-contact (PTC) release for an unproductive player of little value, or a "problem player", who the coach wants to get rid of. If the coach doesn't like or want a player, he/she may not only be receptive to a PTC release, but may affirmatively encourage it. Knowing UConn best, I would say that most of the UConn transfers this century were of this type: Geno probably encouraged or even pushed for them.

3. A PTC release where the player is injured and wants to play closer to home or nearer some medical facility. Again, this is a relatively easy-to-swallow PTC release situation for a coach, either because this is a genuine sympathy situation or one where the player has lost value due to the injury. Some of the Tennessee transfers come to mind re this scenario.

4. Other PTC release situations where the athlete has some compelling personal situation that is uniquely burdensome to her, such as needing to be near sick family, being consumed with profound homesickness, wanting to be near a spouse or significant other, wanting to be at a school with a better courses in her major. These are all specialized situations, unique to one player, for which the KSU policy would seemingly approve a PTC release.

5. A PTC release based solely on a coaching change where the coach is now at another school. There might be some sympathy here by the current school to let a non-NLI student follow the coach who recruited her, but we are now firmly in a scenario where the transfer would be against the interests of the current school.

6. Same as 5 except that the departed coach is not currently coaching. The smidgeon of sympathy for the established player-coach relationship and loyalty is now completely absent. Even here, a PTC release might be considered if the player is a mediocre contributor or bench player.

7. Same as 6 except the player who wants the transfer is the star of the team.


There are some other situations as well. I think the most common is when a player thinks she's not getting enough playing time (or, similarly, sees that her time is going to diminish greatly) even though the coach still thinks she has a role on the team. From what I can tell, that was what motivated Daisha Simmons and Shakena Richardson to leave Rutgers.

There's also the Brooklyn Pope scenario - the player doesn't want to make the effort to fit into the way her team plays, and so decides to go. In that case, there may be a touch of scenario 2, but the coach doesn't always want the player to go.

And, of course, you have the DeShields scenario - the star of the team just wants to leave.

I should be clear that my view is that, with rare exceptions (notably rules about transfers within conferences), players ought to be able to go if they want. From a basketball perspective, transfers often do not work out very well for the player - the list of players who ended up doing significantly better at their new schools than their old schools is surprisingly short - but if you're not happy, in the long run both you and your original school are better off to make the break.

By the way, I notice that nobody has mentioned the most egregious example of failing to give a release in the last twenty years - when Rene Portland told Amber Bland she was off the team and wouldn't grant a release for her to go to another school. Bland did get the release when she petitioned the university president, but Portland apparently wanted her to stick around for no good reason other than to torture her. (Of course, this was part of Portland's late irrational phase, when she started kicking players off the team because she suspected they were lesbians.)


patsweetpat



Joined: 14 Jul 2010
Posts: 2313
Location: Culver City, CA


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 3:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

nm


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 5:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


Good find.

As to your question whether student-athletes fully understand the transfer rules that will apply to them, I suspect the answer is overwhelmingly no.

Most of the high school students and parents I've talked to about NLI's really showed little understanding the NLI penalty. And that's only a small part of the story.

Most of the rest is the complex body of NCAA transfer regulations and school rules derived from those regulations. Some if it is explained summarily in the Handbooks I've seen, but others don't even discuss transfers. I've read the NCAA Regs for years, and I wasn't aware of the PTC no-scholarship angle until four years ago.

Then there may be additional and specialized conference rules that can restrict transfers and NLI releases even more.

The student-athlete is bound by these rules whether they understand them or not. It would be a good idea from the school's and NCAA's perspective for students to sign a statement saying they understand the rules, or at least those outlined in the relevant Handbook.


ArtBest23



Joined: 02 Jul 2013
Posts: 14550



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 6:02 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

GlennMacGrady wrote:
Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


Good find.

As to your question whether student-athletes fully understand the transfer rules that will apply to them, I suspect the answer is overwhelmingly no.

Most of the high school students and parents I've talked to about NLI's really showed little understanding the NLI penalty. And that's only a small part of the story.

Most of the rest is the complex body of NCAA transfer regulations and school rules derived from those regulations. Some if it is explained summarily in the Handbooks I've seen, but others don't even discuss transfers. I've read the NCAA Regs for years, and I wasn't aware of the PTC no-scholarship angle until four years ago.

Then there may be additional and specialized conference rules that can restrict transfers and NLI releases even more.

The student-athlete is bound by these rules whether they understand them or not. It would be a good idea from the school's and NCAA's perspective for students to sign a statement saying they understand the rules, or at least those outlined in the relevant Handbook.


The penalty is stated about as plainly as it could be stated right on the face of the NLOI. If they don't read it, whose fault is that? It's not in legalese. I suspect they read it and understood it until it matters and then the story is "no one ever told us that."

The recruiting process has been going on for three years for most of these kids. They talk to coaches, they read the internet, they talk to each other, they talk to kids already in college, they know the transfer stories. Sorry, I'm not buying the "naive ignorance" line.n


newkid



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Austin, TX


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/21/14 6:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


What happened when Kelsey Bone wanted to leave SCar after one year? It was not a coaching change, but it was a case of a valuable player wanting to leave pretty much just because. (I think homesickness was cited.)


Phil



Joined: 22 Oct 2011
Posts: 1273



Back to top
PostPosted: 04/22/14 11:36 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

newkid wrote:
Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


What happened when Kelsey Bone wanted to leave SCar after one year? It was not a coaching change, but it was a case of a valuable player wanting to leave pretty much just because. (I think homesickness was cited.)


There's no special issue. Scholarships and the NLI cover only the next year, and the NLI is the only situation where there is a time lag between the agreement and the start of the year.

If your freshman (or soph or junior) year doesn't work out, you can transfer, subject to the sit out rules, usually ne year, sometimes 2 for in conference, or not allowed in case of the ACC.

That differs from the present situation where a LOI was signed, with the expectation Patterson would be coaching, and then a change occurs.


GlennMacGrady



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/22/14 2:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

"Release" is an ambiguous term, which in my experience the media rarely understand, because it can apply to three different situations. Here they are.

1. "Release" from the National Letter of Intent (NLI), which is a contract between the student and school and which is not governed or run by the NCAA.

The NLI obligates the student-athlete to remain in residence at the school to complete one academic year. The NLI contract is binding on the student from the date she signs it, usually in November of her high school senior year, until she completes her one academic year at the university. If the student transfers before satisfying the NLI, she suffers the "NLI Penalty", which is a loss of one of her four years of athletic eligibility (plus sitting out a year, which is required by the NCAA transfer rules, anyway).

Sometimes a student will bargain to get out of the NLI contract. If the school allows that, it's often called a release. If this NLI release happens before the student ever enrolls or accepts any financial aid, then she doesn't have to worry about the NCAA transfer regulations, which involve the next two meanings of "release". She can go to another school on an athletic scholarship without a sit-out year (unless conference rules, such as the Big East's, prohibit it).

2. "Release" to give an enrolled student-athlete a permission-to-contact (PTC) letter so that she can speak to a specific school about transferring. Sometimes the current school will issue a PTC release only for some potential transfer-to schools and not others. If the student transfers to a school for which she was granted a PTC release, she has to sit out a year but can receive athletic financial aid during the sit-out year. If she transfers to a school for which she was denied a PTC release (like Romero), she has to sit out a year and cannot receive athletic financial aid during the sit-out year.

3. "Release" for an enrolled student-athlete who qualifies for the "one-time transfer" (OTT) exception to the NCAA one sit-out year requirement. Athletes in the sports of basketball, baseball, football (generally), and men's hockey are not eligible for the OTT exception. Athletes in other sports are. If these OTT-eligble athletes are granted an OTT release, they can transfer to the new school and play immediately without having to sit out a year. If the student-athlete is denied a OTT release, they can't take advantage of the OTT exception and have to sit out a year at the transfer-to school. Moreover, if an OTT-eligible athlete is denied an OTT release and has to sit out a year, she can or cannot get athletic financial aid during the sit-out year depending upon whether she was granted or denied a PTC release. So, as the Tennessee Handbook makes clear, an OTT-eligible athlete really needs to apply for both a PTC release and a OTT release.

I am assuming that both Leti Romero and Diamond DeShields will have satisfied their NLI contract by completing one academic year by next month. Since they are not in an OTT sport, they only need the second kind of release, the PTC release. If, however, either one will not be satisfying her NLI requirement, then she would need a NLI release in addition to the PTC release.

Now let's imagine a volleyball student-athlete who has signed an NLI, has enrolled in a summer or fall session, and then wants to transfer before completing one academic year. She's eligible for the OTT exception. So, technically, she may need three releases to escape Leviathan: a NLI, PTC and OTT release. Please contact the law firm of Dewey, Cheatem & Howe if you are in this situation.

I've often wondered whether EDD was considered an enrolled student for purposes of her 48 hours in Storrs. If so, she would have needed a NLI release and a PTC release. The media never enlightened us on this issue as far as I can recall. We do know she played volleyball but not basketball in her freshman year, and then played her full four years of eligibility in basketball. That suggests to me she definitely got a NLI release becaue no "NLI Penalty" (loss of a year of eligibility) was imposed. But she may not have gotten PTC release at all if she paid for her first year at Delaware with her own money. I'm not sure.


newkid



Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 1184
Location: Austin, TX


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/22/14 4:34 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Phil wrote:
newkid wrote:
Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


What happened when Kelsey Bone wanted to leave SCar after one year? It was not a coaching change, but it was a case of a valuable player wanting to leave pretty much just because. (I think homesickness was cited.)


There's no special issue. Scholarships and the NLI cover only the next year, and the NLI is the only situation where there is a time lag between the agreement and the start of the year.

If your freshman (or soph or junior) year doesn't work out, you can transfer, subject to the sit out rules, usually ne year, sometimes 2 for in conference, or not allowed in case of the ACC.

That differs from the present situation where a LOI was signed, with the expectation Patterson would be coaching, and then a change occurs.


No, the present situation is not a LOI question. Romero has completed her LOI year. She has completed her freshman year, wants to transfer, and, as I understand it, will have to pay for her sit-out year herself, because the school won't grant a release. If the school will grant a release, then she will still have to sit out, but will be able to receive a scholarship. In a similar situation, Jordan Jones was released. I wonder if Bone was? I wonder if DeShields will be?


pilight



Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 66908
Location: Where the action is


Back to top
PostPosted: 04/22/14 4:43 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

newkid wrote:
Phil wrote:
newkid wrote:
Matt5762 wrote:
Just to give one example that is similar to Romero's circumstance: Jordan Jones was the leading scorer at South Carolina as a freshman, decided to transfer when she didn't figure to fit in well with the style of new coach Dawn Staley, was released and played 3 years at Florida (a conference school, no less).

http://www.thestate.com/2008/05/18/408476/coaching-transition-causes-jones.html


What happened when Kelsey Bone wanted to leave SCar after one year? It was not a coaching change, but it was a case of a valuable player wanting to leave pretty much just because. (I think homesickness was cited.)


There's no special issue. Scholarships and the NLI cover only the next year, and the NLI is the only situation where there is a time lag between the agreement and the start of the year.

If your freshman (or soph or junior) year doesn't work out, you can transfer, subject to the sit out rules, usually ne year, sometimes 2 for in conference, or not allowed in case of the ACC.

That differs from the present situation where a LOI was signed, with the expectation Patterson would be coaching, and then a change occurs.


No, the present situation is not a LOI question. Romero has completed her LOI year. She has completed her freshman year, wants to transfer, and, as I understand it, will have to pay for her sit-out year herself, because the school won't grant a release. If the school will grant a release, then she will still have to sit out, but will be able to receive a scholarship. In a similar situation, Jordan Jones was released. I wonder if Bone was? I wonder if DeShields will be?


Bone definitely was not released. Dawn Staley made a loud and public point of refusing to release her for an SEC or B12 school.



_________________
I'm a lonely frog
I ain't got a home
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    RebKell's Junkie Boards Forum Index » NCAA Women's Basketball - General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB 2.0.17 © 2001- 2004 phpBB Group
phpBB Template by Vjacheslav Trushkin