| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
blaase22
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 4163
Location: Paradise
Back to top |
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
 Posted: 04/20/14 10:55 am ::: |
Reply  |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
For reasons I can't prove, because none of us has the evidence, I assume the opposite: that, for reasons like the ones I argued, the significant majority of transfer release requests are denied. As I've discussed with Beknighted somewhere on this board, I don't think we know whether Diamond DeShields has been granted, denied or even requested a transfer release yet.
Because we don't know the percentages of transfer releases that are granted vs. denied on a national or big sample basis, I'd even suggest it's unfair to accuse KSU of doing something unusual. Of course, one can argue its the wrong policy regardless of whether it is normal or abnormal, and I think that's a principled position some here are taking.
On a practical point, which may respond to Pilight's inquiry, it may be that KSU is banking on the fact that WCBB is a rather unimportant sport in the big scheme. Romerogate will create a stir on a few message boards like this one for a couple of weeks, but basically be unnoticed. No one knows who Romero is outside of us fan-addicts. |
For what it's worth, I looked at least year's transfer thread and there appeared to be only one case in which a school denied release, although they later relented and limited the denial to a single other school (which was in the same conference). I think limited denials are more common than full denials, although I also don't think we hear about them as much when they happen. Also for what it's worth, I don't know of a single case of Rutgers denying a release since CVS came to the school.
Last year's thread is not definitive if you think there's a meaningful likelihood that teams deny releases and players don't squawk about it. (E.g., player goes to coach, says "I want to transfer," coach says "I don't know that we'd give you a release," and that ends it.) I'm not sure I would expect that to happen very often.
BTW, if it's a school-wide policy at KState, first I'd say I have a little less sympathy for Romero and a little less scorn for Mittie, but I'd also say that sounds like a pretty insecure institution on the whole.
Last edited by beknighted on 04/20/14 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 11:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| pilight wrote: |
| I don't understand what KState is trying to accomplish by denying her release |
I will defend KSU because the comments are too one-sided and emotional. |
I understand in theory why this policy exists. What do they think they are gaining in practice? Romero isn't going to play her best under these circumstances, assuming she plays at all instead of coming down with an "injury" that keeps her out. They'll be lucky if she plays half speed. The bad publicity is going to hurt their recruiting, and not just in WCBB. What is the upside for K-State to hold her hostage? |
The upside, arguably, is trinitarian:
1. KSU doesn't set a dangerous policy precedent of allowing enrolled players to be given transfer releases just because of a coaching change.
2. Romero may calm down, realize there is no basketball Oz, and become relatively happy remaining in Kansas with Toto and Auntie Em.
3. Any probability of productive play by a retained Romero is better than the zero probability of a departed one. |
What you are leaving out of the equation is that Romero is not an American player. She may well just say the hell with it, pack up, and go back to Spain for good. That is not an impossibility.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15739
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 11:20 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| I don't think any of us know how often, or the percentage of times, transfer releases are granted or denied. Your question makes the assumption that the norm is granting releases and that Kansas is in an evil minority. |
I understand your point here: *We* can't really know absolute numbers. But I also think it's safe to say that my "assumption" is more valid than the opposite. In wbb, transfers (see:"Transfers" thread ) are NOT all that rare, while the K-State-type handling of such transactions represents a fairly small percentage of such events.
As someone else mentioned here, I strongly suspect that Letty Romero's troubles are directly related to her talent level: would this be happening to a lesser player?
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
ksuwbbfan
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 98
Location: Kansas
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 11:31 am ::: |
Reply |
|
This discussion wouldn't be happening if Romero was a bench player and not the star of the team.
I don't think the AD really gives a rip about the reaction to all of this, because at the first chance he gets to go back to the SEC (he came here from Tennessee), he's gone and will leave the next guy to clean up the mess.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 11:46 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ksuwbbfan wrote: |
This discussion wouldn't be happening if Romero was a bench player and not the star of the team.
I don't think the AD really gives a rip about the reaction to all of this, because at the first chance he gets to go back to the SEC (he came here from Tennessee), he's gone and will leave the next guy to clean up the mess. |
Good heavens, who is your AD now? We are two (horrible, may I add) away from whoever it is, I think. One of those is out of the AD business, and the second, who already had a suspect record vis a vis women's athletics, is unfortunately still here. It's been so awful I can't remember who used to be here.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
ksuwbbfan
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 98
Location: Kansas
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 11:52 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ksuwbbfan wrote: |
This discussion wouldn't be happening if Romero was a bench player and not the star of the team.
I don't think the AD really gives a rip about the reaction to all of this, because at the first chance he gets to go back to the SEC (he came here from Tennessee), he's gone and will leave the next guy to clean up the mess. |
Good heavens, who is your AD now? We are two (horrible, may I add) away from whoever it is, I think. One of those is out of the AD business, and the second, who already had a suspect record vis a vis women's athletics, is unfortunately still here. It's been so awful I can't remember who used to be here. |
John Currie.
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 12:05 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ksuwbbfan wrote: |
| summertime blues wrote: |
| ksuwbbfan wrote: |
This discussion wouldn't be happening if Romero was a bench player and not the star of the team.
I don't think the AD really gives a rip about the reaction to all of this, because at the first chance he gets to go back to the SEC (he came here from Tennessee), he's gone and will leave the next guy to clean up the mess. |
Good heavens, who is your AD now? We are two (horrible, may I add) away from whoever it is, I think. One of those is out of the AD business, and the second, who already had a suspect record vis a vis women's athletics, is unfortunately still here. It's been so awful I can't remember who used to be here. |
John Currie. |
Rings no bells with me. However, our women's athletics department used to be a separate entity until our present AD (Dave Hart, aka Heartless Dave) got here, so that's perhaps not too surprising.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
Matt5762
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 607
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 12:11 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I suspect Glenn might be right that coaches and ADs strongarm players with the threat of denying their release much more often than we may be privy to. Of course, when the rubber meets the road and/or the media gets involved, they tend to cave (with the possible exception of inter-conference transfers). Until now, I guess. It's also true that this will probably blow over publicly, but Google is the friend of recruits and their parents. Good luck to Mittie and his staff out on the recruiting trail - they are going to need it.
As for Romero, I really sympathize for her as I don't think there is enough credit given to just how hard the adjustment to US college sports is for non-English speaking student athletes (who haven't prepped in the US). I can't even imagine trying to navigate a situation like this when you don't understand the system or have an old AAU coach to rely on.
That said, I'm sure she'll be fine. With her stats at K-State, I have little doubt she'll be back home this fall making bank in the Spanish A League.
|
|
ksuwbbfan
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 98
Location: Kansas
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 12:25 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Currie was the Executive Associate Athletics Director (whatever that means) at UT when he was hired here.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 12:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I'm not sure why I've agreed to represent KSU pro bono, but the discussion is interesting.
I don't come here often, so I wasn't aware of the transfer thread. For those of you who pointed me to it, how does the fact of transfer tell us whether the player received a release or not? Just curious, as I can't figure it out.
My assumption is that most schools have a policy similar to KSU and the deterrence works effectively, but below public awareness. For example, an athlete may ask about a release but simply and accurately be told that her or his situation doesn't fit within the university policy. I suspect that ends 90% of transfer thoughts that probably pass through many student's heads, especially during a freshman year.
STB, I know Romero is from Spain but I don't see the connection of her "home town" to my trinitarian or other arguments. Yes, she may go home but so may any other athlete denied release. Keep in mind that going home doesn't satisfy the NCAA's one-year sit-out requirement. The transfer student must finish one academic year of course work at the transfer-to school to satisfy the sit-out requirement. My point is that this result is no worse for KSU than granting the release. In both cases they lose her if she goes, but there is at least a chance that she stays at KSU after a denial for the one more year compromise KSU has offered.
Romero, like any American student, has the option to enroll in another school without athletic financial aid for a year, and I suspect many actual transfers do just that but don't publicize it.
Finally, I forgot to point out that non-released transfers like Romero can receive academic financial aid at the transfer-to school. Since many WCBB players are also good students, I also suspect many transfers go this route without fanfare.
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11149
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 1:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| Quote: |
I don't think any of us know how often, or the percentage of times, transfer releases are granted or denied. Your question makes the assumption that the norm is granting releases and that Kansas is in an evil minority.
For reasons I can't prove, because none of us has the evidence, I assume the opposite: that, for reasons like the ones I argued, the significant majority of transfer release requests are denied. As I've discussed with Beknighted somewhere on this board, I don't think we know whether Diamond DeShields has been granted, denied or even requested a transfer release yet.
Because we don't know the percentages of transfer releases that are granted vs. denied on a national or big sample basis, I'd even suggest it's unfair to accuse KSU of doing something unusual. Of course, one can argue its the wrong policy regardless of whether it is normal or abnormal, and I think that's a principled position some here are taking. |
Now if there were some kind of independent association charged with representing student-athletes that had some kind of avenue to independent arbitration, presumably we would have all these facts in hand.
At that point, students and their families would have more information about the decision they make about where to attend school.
The NCAA has no reason to release this information, either overall or school by school. Of course, it could, and so could each university, but somehow, I don't think that's going to happen.
Again, it's not about giving the players control over the system -- it's about redressing the balance of power, which is shown in this case by the lack of information available to those who are signing the contracts known as NLIs.
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
Posts: 7845
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 1:45 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
I'm not sure why I've agreed to represent KSU pro bono, but the discussion is interesting.
I don't come here often, so I wasn't aware of the transfer thread. For those of you who pointed me to it, how does the fact of transfer tell us whether the player received a release or not? Just curious, as I can't figure it out.
My assumption is that most schools have a policy similar to KSU and the deterrence works effectively, but below public awareness. For example, an athlete may ask about a release but simply and accurately be told that her or his situation doesn't fit within the university policy. I suspect that ends 90% of transfer thoughts that probably pass through many student's heads, especially during a freshman year.
STB, I know Romero is from Spain but I don't see the connection of her "home town" to my trinitarian or other arguments. Yes, she may go home but so may any other athlete denied release. Keep in mind that going home doesn't satisfy the NCAA's one-year sit-out requirement. The transfer student must finish one academic year of course work at the transfer-to school to satisfy the sit-out requirement. My point is that this result is no worse for KSU than granting the release. In both cases they lose her if she goes, but there is at least a chance that she stays at KSU after a denial for the one more year compromise KSU has offered.
Romero, like any American student, has the option to enroll in another school without athletic financial aid for a year, and I suspect many actual transfers do just that but don't publicize it.
Finally, I forgot to point out that non-released transfers like Romero can receive academic financial aid at the transfer-to school. Since many WCBB players are also good students, I also suspect many transfers go this route without fanfare. |
Romero has already said that she does not have that "option" because her family cannot afford it, so you can take that off the table right now. (I read the articles, you may not have.) She can't take money from anyone, because that damages her amateur standing. KSU won't release her. She's a foreign student and it is possible she doesn't have the academic credentials to receive academic financial aid (this I don't know, I have no idea about her grades whatever). So without getting her release from KSU, she is indeed up that proverbial estuary without a means of locomotion. That is what makes KSU look so bad.
_________________
Don't take life so serious. It ain't nohows permanent.
It takes 3 years to build a team and 7 to build a program.--Conventional Wisdom
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 4:49 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| My assumption is that most schools have a policy similar to KSU and the deterrence works effectively, but below public awareness. For example, an athlete may ask about a release but simply and accurately be told that her or his situation doesn't fit within the university policy. I suspect that ends 90% of transfer thoughts that probably pass through many student's heads, especially during a freshman year. |
I'm not sure what the basis for that assumption would be. The one case I know the most about is Rutgers, and I think it's fair to say that if there were a policy discouraging transfers that way (a) I would have heard about it over the last ten years; and/or (b) RU wouldn't have had nearly as many transfers. Also, RU has had a few incoming transfers over the years (including Alexis Burke this year), and they've all been on scholarship and had to sit out a year. It's possible, of course, that Rutgers is an outlier, but it's at least a counterpoint to the notion that it's routine to deny release.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 4:57 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| beknighted wrote: |
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| My assumption is that most schools have a policy similar to KSU and the deterrence works effectively, but below public awareness. For example, an athlete may ask about a release but simply and accurately be told that her or his situation doesn't fit within the university policy. I suspect that ends 90% of transfer thoughts that probably pass through many student's heads, especially during a freshman year. |
I'm not sure what the basis for that assumption would be. The one case I know the most about is Rutgers, and I think it's fair to say that if there were a policy discouraging transfers that way (a) I would have heard about it over the last ten years; and/or (b) RU wouldn't have had nearly as many transfers. Also, RU has had a few incoming transfers over the years (including Alexis Burke this year), and they've all been on scholarship and had to sit out a year. It's possible, of course, that Rutgers is an outlier, but it's at least a counterpoint to the notion that it's routine to deny release. |
The basis is simply that the KSU policy seems reasonable and schools tend to have similar policies on NCAA-related recruiting, transfer and eligibility matters. I have no evidence. That would require knowledge of all the schools' written transfer release policies and how they implement those policies as a practical matter.
Since you seem to be plugged into Rutgers, can you provide its written policy? It must be written somewhere, as KSU's is.
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 7:59 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| GlennMacGrady wrote: |
| Since you seem to be plugged into Rutgers, can you provide its written policy? It must be written somewhere, as KSU's is. |
It's in the new transfer policy thread.
|
|
GlennMacGrady
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 8227
Location: Heisenberg
Back to top |
|
Howee
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 15739
Location: OREGON (in my heart)
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/20/14 8:38 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
| -- it's about redressing the balance of power, which is shown in this case by the lack of information available to those who are signing the contracts known as NLIs. |
I may well have missed something in the discussion, but....what do you mean by "lack of information available" here? Are you suggesting that kids are signing these letters but not knowing the full ramifications (because they're not disclosed) or just don't comprehend all the possible outcomes as they're signing the NLIs?
_________________
Oregon: Go Ducks!
"Inévitablement, les canards voleront"
|
|
ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 11149
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 9:26 am ::: |
Reply |
|
I'm suggesting that transfer rates by athletes from each school, and transfer releases denied, are not compiled by the NCAA or by individual universities -- or if they are, they are not immediate public knowledge.
So, for example, I want to go to Enormous State University to play basketball. I want to find out how many athletes have transferred from ESU in the past five years in all sports, and in my sport, and I want to know how many of those transfers were released by the university.
This is a reasonable request, given that the NCAA and the universities, unlike other corporations, restrain my ability to switch employers (or whatever you want to call them), and if, like the Romero family, we cannot afford to transfer without some kind of financial support -- again, unlike most businesses where my new job would support me immediately -- I would like to know what the history of transfers is at Enormous State.
Do you think this information would be made readily available without some kind of group pressure on the NCAA and the universities?
_________________
Oṃ Tāre Tuttāre Ture Svāhā
|
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 10:03 am ::: |
Reply |
|
| ClayK wrote: |
I
This is a reasonable request, given that the NCAA and the universities, unlike other corporations, restrain my ability to switch employers (or whatever you want to call them), and if, like the Romero family, we cannot afford to transfer without some kind of financial support -- again, unlike most businesses where my new job would support me immediately -- I would like to know what the history of transfers is at Enormous State.
|
You seem to be unfamiliar with no-compete clauses.
|
|
ksuwbbfan
Joined: 14 Mar 2014
Posts: 98
Location: Kansas
Back to top |
|
dfineguy
Joined: 05 Oct 2008
Posts: 201
Location: Bay Area Califonia
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 6:26 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I
This is a reasonable request, given that the NCAA and the universities, unlike other corporations, restrain my ability to switch employers (or whatever you want to call them), and if, like the Romero family, we cannot afford to transfer without some kind of financial support -- again, unlike most businesses where my new job would support me immediately -- I would like to know what the history of transfers is at Enormous State.
|
You seem to be unfamiliar with no-compete clauses. |
This does not seem to be in play here. She didn't ask to go to Oklahoma or Baylor. She just asked for permission to ask.
_________________
From the Desk of the Cat in the Hat
|
|
flatlander5
Joined: 07 Oct 2010
Posts: 69
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 11:00 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
I've been a Kansas State WBB fan for about ten years... during that time I've seen many players come and go. Several players have asked for and received releases over this decade. A few of them were also what I would call "key" players - Twiggy McIntire and Joanne Hamblin come to mind right off.
My personal belief is that this situation is different because of the people involved. When Deb Patterson was a part of making the decision, she had the ability to consider the person involved and weigh what was best for them and what was best for the team. Generally, she felt the team was better served by having a player who didn't want to be there gone. I don't think that Coach Mittie or AD Currie have the ability to see the 'person' involved in these issues and to comprehend the dynamics of how things affect a team mentality.
From what I have heard, John Currie is a very cold person. He (reportedly, I wasn't there but heard it from someone who was) showed no compassion for the players when he met with them to explain that Patterson had been fired. It was all business for him, never mind that the lives of all these young women were affected greatly by his decision.
As with the majority of KSU fans, I feel very strongly that the release should have been granted. I would not send my daughter to play on this team if players get treated in such a fashion. Obviously, I'm not the only one who feels this way as two future players have already changed plans.
|
|
beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
Posts: 11050
Location: Lost in D.C.
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 11:16 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| dfineguy wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I
This is a reasonable request, given that the NCAA and the universities, unlike other corporations, restrain my ability to switch employers (or whatever you want to call them), and if, like the Romero family, we cannot afford to transfer without some kind of financial support -- again, unlike most businesses where my new job would support me immediately -- I would like to know what the history of transfers is at Enormous State.
|
You seem to be unfamiliar with no-compete clauses. |
This does not seem to be in play here. She didn't ask to go to Oklahoma or Baylor. She just asked for permission to ask. |
There isn't much conceptual difference between the two - a non-compete prevents you from going to another competing company, while failure to grant release prevents you from going to another competing team (and, after all, all of D-I is in competition with any team). The difference you're talking about is a process issue, not a substantive distinction.
|
|
PUmatty
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 16359
Location: Chicago
Back to top |
| Posted: 04/21/14 11:28 pm ::: |
Reply |
|
| dfineguy wrote: |
| PUmatty wrote: |
| ClayK wrote: |
I
This is a reasonable request, given that the NCAA and the universities, unlike other corporations, restrain my ability to switch employers (or whatever you want to call them), and if, like the Romero family, we cannot afford to transfer without some kind of financial support -- again, unlike most businesses where my new job would support me immediately -- I would like to know what the history of transfers is at Enormous State.
|
You seem to be unfamiliar with no-compete clauses. |
This does not seem to be in play here. She didn't ask to go to Oklahoma or Baylor. She just asked for permission to ask. |
My point was that despite what Clay has decided, this actually happens in business all the time. It is simply not true that companies and other employers don't restrain employees "ability to switch employers.
|
|
|
|
