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GEF34
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ArtBest23
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 Posted: 11/04/14 3:02 pm ::: |
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| According to Doug Feinberg's tweets, the "others receiving votes" - Aleighsa Welch, South Carolina; Kayla Woodward, Wyoming; Isabelle Harrison, Tennessee; Bria Holmes, West Virginia; Brittany Hrynko, DePaul; Amber Orrange, Stanford; Courtney Walker, Texas A&M; Jillian Alleyne, Oregon; Rachel Banham, Minnesota; Nina Davis, Baylor; Nneka Enemkpali, Texas; Reshanda Gray, Cal.
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GEF34
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| Posted: 11/04/14 7:51 pm ::: |
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| Of all the Pac-12 players, I'm surprised to see Jillian Alleyne's name in the receiving votes category. I'm interested to see how she does with the new coaching staff.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/04/14 8:03 pm ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| Of all the Pac-12 players, I'm surprised to see Jillian Alleyne's name in the receiving votes category. I'm interested to see how she does with the new coaching staff. |
Do the voters just vote for five? Because, if so, there is no justification in the world for someone naming most of those "others" as one of the top five players in the country. They're just a bone being thrown by writers to the home team or home conference.
I don't think there are more than 8 or 9 players max with a legit claim to one of those spots right now. Others can certainly play their way into AA status (or should be able to; that too many voters at the end of the season just photocopy their preseason list without paying attention to what actually happened all year is a seperate problem). But as an example, can any case at all be made that right now that today Alleyne is one of the nation's five best? I don't mean to pick on her, but she was the one you mentioned. She's not alone among that group of twelve.
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 11/04/14 8:18 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| Of all the Pac-12 players, I'm surprised to see Jillian Alleyne's name in the receiving votes category. I'm interested to see how she does with the new coaching staff. |
Do the voters just vote for five? Because, if so, there is no justification in the world for someone naming most of those "others" as one of the top five players in the country. They're just a bone being thrown by writers to the home tem or home conference.
I don't think there are more than 8 or 9 players max with a legit claim to one of those spots right now. Others can certainly play their way into AA status (or should be able to; that too many voters at the end of the season just photocopy their preseason list without paying attention to what actually happened all year is a seperate problem). But as an example, can any case at all be made that right now that today Alleyne is one of the nation's five best? I don't mean to pick on her, but she was the one you mentioned. She's not alone among that group of twelve. |
I have no idea how many people are voted per ballot, but the article mentions that Breanna Stewart and Jewell Loyd are the only two players to receive all 35 votes.
Also the AP does a first team, second team and third team, so the AP does have 15 players they honor as All-Americans every season.
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patsweetpat
Joined: 14 Jul 2010
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| Posted: 11/04/14 8:22 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I don't think there are more than 8 or 9 players max with a legit claim to one of those spots right now. Others can certainly play their way into AA status (or should be able to; that too many voters at the end of the season just photocopy their preseason list without paying attention to what actually happened all year is a seperate problem). But as an example, can any case at all be made that right now that today Alleyne is one of the nation's five best? |
Last season Jillian Alleyne pulled down the most rebounds of anyone in the nation, had the highest rebounding percentage of anyone in the nation, had the 2nd-highest EFF of anyone in the nation, and the 8th-highest Pts/40 of anyone in the nation. I think a decent-enough case could be made that Alleyne is deserving of 1 of 5 preseason All-American votes.
I, myself, would not necessarily make the case, mind you. But I don't think it'd be an inherently-ridiculous case for someone (again, not me) to make. And I *will* say that I don't personally see why Elizabeth Williams is more deserving of a pre-season AA vote than is Jillian Alleyne.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/04/14 8:27 pm ::: |
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| patsweetpat wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| I don't think there are more than 8 or 9 players max with a legit claim to one of those spots right now. Others can certainly play their way into AA status (or should be able to; that too many voters at the end of the season just photocopy their preseason list without paying attention to what actually happened all year is a seperate problem). But as an example, can any case at all be made that right now that today Alleyne is one of the nation's five best? |
Last season Jillian Alleyne pulled down the most rebounds of anyone in the nation, had the highest rebounding percentage of anyone in the nation, had the 2nd-highest EFF of anyone in the nation, and the 8th-highest Pts/40 of anyone in the nation. I think a decent-enough case could be made that Alleyne is deserving of 1 of 5 preseason All-American votes.
I, myself, would not necessarily make the case, mind you. But I don't think it'd be an inherently-ridiculous case for someone (again, not me) to make. And I *will* say that I don't personally see why Elizabeth Williams is more deserving of a pre-season AA vote than is Jillian Alleyne. |
Really? Williams has been an AA every year, I believe. Plus, you have to conclude Alleyne is next in line, ahead of Harrison, Davis, Walker, Banham, etc.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but mine is that having Alleyne as a top five in the country is far fetched.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 11/04/14 9:07 pm ::: |
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Just because Williams has been named AA every year, does that mean she has deserved it? Or does it just mean someone assumed she lived up to her billing and automatically included her? As far as I can tell she is still living on what she did Freshman year.
As far as Alleyne, she has much more right to be there than someone like Kayla Woodward, even though I'm happy someone actually included a mid-major. Compare Alleyne and Williams' numbers from last year and explain how it is that Williams deserves it more. Let's see, ok she did get more blocks, but Alleyne performed better in EVERY single other category, and not by just a little either.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/04/14 9:28 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
Just because Williams has been named AA every year, does that mean she has deserved it? Or does it just mean someone assumed she lived up to her billing and automatically included her? As far as I can tell she is still living on what she did Freshman year.
As far as Alleyne, she has much more right to be there than someone like Kayla Woodward, even though I'm happy someone actually included a mid-major. Compare Alleyne and Williams' numbers from last year and explain how it is that Williams deserves it more. Let's see, ok she did get more blocks, but Alleyne performed better in EVERY single other category, and not by just a little either. |
I don't think anyone is suggesting Woodward belongs anywhere close to the top 5 either.
If it was about nothing but raw stats, Jerrica Coley should have been POY, and Ebony Rowe should have been a multiple 1st team AA.
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myrtle
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| Posted: 11/04/14 9:37 pm ::: |
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Oregon isn't a mid major like FIU or MTSU, though East Coasters may forget they exist. Just because she didn't play on national tv, it doesn't mean her accomplishments were any less spectacular.
And I know they both played against Cal and UConn last year. You might want to compare what they did in those games. And Alleyne had much less help on her team than Williams had on hers.
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summertime blues
Joined: 16 Apr 2013
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| Posted: 11/04/14 10:43 pm ::: |
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| I am not and never have been all that impressed by Elizabeth Williams. IMO she is slow and kind of tentative. You can make excuses about her being injured but I'm just not that impressed.
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linkster
Joined: 27 Jul 2012
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| Posted: 11/04/14 10:47 pm ::: |
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| My memories of Williams are, for the most part, the 3 games against UConn. Williams has been ineffective in all those games. And it seemed to me that she took herself out of a couple of those. In those 3 games Williams was a combined 12-43 from the field, those 43 shots producing 30 points.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/04/14 11:43 pm ::: |
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| myrtle wrote: |
Oregon isn't a mid major like FIU or MTSU, though East Coasters may forget they exist. Just because she didn't play on national tv, it doesn't mean her accomplishments were any less spectacular.
And I know they both played against Cal and UConn last year. You might want to compare what they did in those games. And Alleyne had much less help on her team than Williams had on hers. |
Alleyne played in a ridiculous system that grossly inflated her stats while routinely producing 100+ pt games, while playing zero defense. Sorry if I'm not impressed by her scoring 29 pts in a silly 130-90 win over Southern, for example. It's hard to take those numbers seriously. And she had help. Rowe was the teams leading scorer. And the bottom line is, they didn't consistently win. And the PAC coaches predict a 9th place finish this year. You don't generally see 1st team AAs from .500 teams. That's probably why Dearica Hamby didn't get any votes. If you're one of the five best overall players in the country, your team ought to win over half its games. I don't think it's time zones that explain people not fully taking her seriously.
She's a very good player. With new and improved coaching she might earn a spot in the future. But top 5 player in the country today? Really? In the entire country there aren't 5 better?
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myrtle
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| Posted: 11/05/14 12:50 am ::: |
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I'm actually not claiming she is top five but to say it's ridiculous to include her is IMO not fair, especially considering who else is on that list. She deserves to be considered higher than at least half of the 'others receiving votes'. Your characterization of her 'inflated' numbers just indicates to me that you really haven't watched her play. She has an amazing motor and nose for rebounds. I thought her Freshman year was an anomaly but then she did it again even better. I agree it will be interesting to see how she does in a new system but Graves has said she will be the focal point of the team this year.
And I still don't think Williams is anywhere close to top five based on anything other than reputation. Does her 17 points and 5 rebounds impress you more against USC Upstate.
I repeat: look at their numbers against the two good teams they both played. And yeah, there were two players on Oregon's team to guard. Every team who played Oregon focused their defense on two players. How does that compare with the multiple AAs on Duke?
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 11/05/14 1:01 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
Oregon isn't a mid major like FIU or MTSU, though East Coasters may forget they exist. Just because she didn't play on national tv, it doesn't mean her accomplishments were any less spectacular.
And I know they both played against Cal and UConn last year. You might want to compare what they did in those games. And Alleyne had much less help on her team than Williams had on hers. |
Alleyne played in a ridiculous system that grossly inflated her stats while routinely producing 100+ pt games, while playing zero defense. Sorry if I'm not impressed by her scoring 29 pts in a silly 130-90 win over Southern, for example. It's hard to take those numbers seriously. And she had help. Rowe was the teams leading scorer. And the bottom line is, they didn't consistently win. And the PAC coaches predict a 9th place finish this year. You don't generally see 1st team AAs from .500 teams. That's probably why Dearica Hamby didn't get any votes. If you're one of the five best overall players in the country, your team ought to win over half its games. I don't think it's time zones that explain people not fully taking her seriously.
She's a very good player. With new and improved coaching she might earn a spot in the future. But top 5 player in the country today? Really? In the entire country there aren't 5 better? |
Oregon had 5 games against ranked teams, and she had 4 double doubles, and in the 5th game which was against Connecticut, she had 15 points and 9 rebounds. Now I'm not saying she should be considered (as I posted earlier that I was surprised to see her name), but it's not like her numbers are all inflated by playing bad teams.
I agree her higher numbers are a result of the system Oregon played, that's why I'm interested in seeing how she does with a new coach and a new system.
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/05/14 1:17 am ::: |
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| GEF34 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
Oregon isn't a mid major like FIU or MTSU, though East Coasters may forget they exist. Just because she didn't play on national tv, it doesn't mean her accomplishments were any less spectacular.
And I know they both played against Cal and UConn last year. You might want to compare what they did in those games. And Alleyne had much less help on her team than Williams had on hers. |
Alleyne played in a ridiculous system that grossly inflated her stats while routinely producing 100+ pt games, while playing zero defense. Sorry if I'm not impressed by her scoring 29 pts in a silly 130-90 win over Southern, for example. It's hard to take those numbers seriously. And she had help. Rowe was the teams leading scorer. And the bottom line is, they didn't consistently win. And the PAC coaches predict a 9th place finish this year. You don't generally see 1st team AAs from .500 teams. That's probably why Dearica Hamby didn't get any votes. If you're one of the five best overall players in the country, your team ought to win over half its games. I don't think it's time zones that explain people not fully taking her seriously.
She's a very good player. With new and improved coaching she might earn a spot in the future. But top 5 player in the country today? Really? In the entire country there aren't 5 better? |
Oregon had 5 games against ranked teams, and she had 4 double doubles, and in the 5th game which was against Connecticut, she had 15 points and 9 rebounds. Now I'm not saying she should be considered (as I posted earlier that I was surprised to see her name), but it's not like her numbers are all inflated by playing bad teams.
I agree her higher numbers are a result of the system Oregon played, that's why I'm interested in seeing how she does with a new coach and a new system. |
In four of those games, both teams scored over 90; UConn scored 114. And they lost 4 of the 5 games. No defense at all. That matters too.
I wasn't attributing the problem to bad opponents. I was attributing it to a system that produced a gazillion shots, a gazillion missed shots to be rebounded, and gaudy individual stats. The Southern and Cal Poly games are just two of the most ridiculous. In 15 of their games, at least one team scored over 100. In another 9 at least one team was over 90. But in the end they were just a .500 team.
Last edited by ArtBest23 on 11/05/14 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GEF34
Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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| Posted: 11/05/14 1:20 am ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| GEF34 wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| myrtle wrote: |
Oregon isn't a mid major like FIU or MTSU, though East Coasters may forget they exist. Just because she didn't play on national tv, it doesn't mean her accomplishments were any less spectacular.
And I know they both played against Cal and UConn last year. You might want to compare what they did in those games. And Alleyne had much less help on her team than Williams had on hers. |
Alleyne played in a ridiculous system that grossly inflated her stats while routinely producing 100+ pt games, while playing zero defense. Sorry if I'm not impressed by her scoring 29 pts in a silly 130-90 win over Southern, for example. It's hard to take those numbers seriously. And she had help. Rowe was the teams leading scorer. And the bottom line is, they didn't consistently win. And the PAC coaches predict a 9th place finish this year. You don't generally see 1st team AAs from .500 teams. That's probably why Dearica Hamby didn't get any votes. If you're one of the five best overall players in the country, your team ought to win over half its games. I don't think it's time zones that explain people not fully taking her seriously.
She's a very good player. With new and improved coaching she might earn a spot in the future. But top 5 player in the country today? Really? In the entire country there aren't 5 better? |
Oregon had 5 games against ranked teams, and she had 4 double doubles, and in the 5th game which was against Connecticut, she had 15 points and 9 rebounds. Now I'm not saying she should be considered (as I posted earlier that I was surprised to see her name), but it's not like her numbers are all inflated by playing bad teams.
I agree her higher numbers are a result of the system Oregon played, that's why I'm interested in seeing how she does with a new coach and a new system. |
In four of those games, both teams scored over 90; UConn scored 114. And they lost 4 of the 5 games. No defense at all. That matters too. |
That is why I said her higher numbers are a result of the system Oregon played. And my point was her numbers are not inflated by only playing bad teams as you said you are not impressed by her 29 points against Southern.
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ArtBest23
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| Posted: 11/05/14 1:36 am ::: |
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While you were writing your reply I was editing mine to clarify
I wasn't attributing the problem to bad opponents. I was attributing it to a system that produced a gazillion shots, a gazillion missed shots to be rebounded, and gaudy individual stats. The Southern and Cal Poly games are just two of the most ridiculous. In 15 of their games, at least one team scored over 100. In another 9 at least one team was over 90. But in the end they were just a .500 team.
The Southern game is more remarkable for allowing a supposedly overmatched opponent to score 90 than it is by Oregon's 130.
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