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Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 2:05 pm    ::: Pam Parsons and Tina Buck Reply Reply with quote

Why is women's basketball so paranoid about lesbian coaches and players? Why isn't anyone out? For one of the answers, look back to 1979, when South Carolina's coach and a high school player fell in love.

Quote:
The Advocate -- March 18, 1997 -- by Harriet L Schwartz

"It was not just my sexuality--I was a powerful woman," Pam Parsons says about the scandal in 1981 that ended her career as a college basketball coach. She adds that being a lesbian was not seen as threatening as being a winning women's coach, in the male-dominated sports world. "There was not going to be a moving over and allowing women to participate in sports," she says. Nevertheless, her tenure at the University of South Carolina came to a quick end when her relationship with one of her players was exposed.

Parsons and Tina Buck had met in 1979 in an Atlanta sports bar, when Parsons was 33 and Buck was 17. After the couple fell in love, Parsons recruited Buck to play for her team--which, previously unranked, made it to the championship Final Four in 1980. However, when another athlete's parent complained to the university president about Parsons and Buck, Parsons was forced to resign. With Parsons's departure, the relationship became public, pushing the issue of lesbians and sports into the headlines. Parsons sued Sports Illustrated for $75 million in response to its negative portrayal of the couple {in a February 1982 article}. Parsons and Buck were eventually sent to prison for lying about their relationship while under oath during court proceedings.

Today, Parsons, 49, and Buck, 33, are still together, sharing a home in Atlanta. Buck and Parsons work as massage therapists, and Parsons is also a spiritual coach. In a recent telephone interview they say they have learned valuable lessons from their experience, but both agree that the world around them has progressed very little over the past 15 years. Buck, who left the South Carolina team shortly after Parsons's departure and was never signed by another Division I school, remains concerned about young lesbians in sport.

However, both women seem to understand those criticizing them for starting a relationship while Buck was still in high school--but say they were destined to be together. "I would not say it was the right thing to fall in love with a player," Parsons says. "It's the story of wrong timing. Too bad. But most people [are not ruined] for a lifetime in their profession for it." http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1589/is_n729/ai_19362187


When I first learned of these two women, I was enraged at them. Why did deny their relationship? Why did they sue Sports Illustrated? Why did they perjure themselves in court? The longer I've been a women's basketball fan, the more I've understood that, Pam and Tina just wanted to survive.

NCAA coaches, straight and gay, know about Pam Parsons and Tina Buck. This is the unmentionable elephant in the living room of women's college basketball.


bluewolfvii



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 3:30 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Blast it. I read the articles and was exasperated! Damn Advocate. Interesting story about Parsons and Buck, but why link the story to a companion story about the NCAA's unwritten 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' policies for lesbian players and coaches? It's like pointing to a (fill in the blank) person who drowned their kids and got the electric chair, and saying, 'SEE, they come down HARD on these people'. Give me a break!

There must be dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of cases since Parsons and Buck that involved abuse of the coach-player, adult-teenager power dynamic and in which the coaches were men and the players young women or girls. Yet the NCAA worries about Parsons and Buck? Get over it!

I don't want to dump on Parsons and Buck, who seem to be life partners and spiritual mates, but what college coach is STUPID enough to recruit to your basketball team a 17-year old you picked up in a bar? Who you have a 16-year age advantage on? Jesus, Mary, and Joseph!

The Advocate linking the article about what happened in 1979, with Parsons and Buck, to the 1997 article about lesbians in the NCAA offends me. Running a sidebar on Parsons in a story about the struggles of lesbian coaches is like running a sidebar on Wuornos in a story about the hardships of lesbian prostitutes. Get real!


VandyWhit



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 6:14 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Before I spend a lot of time writing something, I'm wondering to what extent people agree with this statement:

Quote:
In a recent telephone interview they say they have learned valuable lessons from their experience, but both agree that the world around them has progressed very little over the past 15 years.


That was a 1997 story, so let's add the nine years since to make the past 24 years. Do people reading this thread think that the world has progressed very little in this regard in the past 20 or 25 years?


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 6:16 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Lets see...we have gone from arrests for being in a gay bar to still not having equal rights while having allegedly gay-themed television shows, some of which look like modern day minstrel shows.


Carol Anne



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 6:24 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Why do Pam Parsons and Tina Buck get cited, on the rare occasions that anyone writes in depth about lesbians in women's basketball? Who else is out? No one. I can't blame coaches for staying in the closet as far as the public is concerned. They've got a lot to lose. But I sure wish they'd all come out someday.

I've come to the conclusion that the NCAA operates on a system of "soft homophobia." There are lesbian coaches, everybody knows that. Depending on the school and the occasion, they and their partners may be regarded as couples, behind the scenes. Way, way behind the scenes.

As long as lesbian coaches cooperate with those who want them to stay safely in the closet, Pam Parsons will remain "the" lesbian coach.


VandyWhit



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 7:47 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Lets see...we have gone from arrests for being in a gay bar to still not having equal rights while having allegedly gay-themed television shows, some of which look like modern day minstrel shows.


My bad. I was thinking specifically of women's college basketball. I should have been clearer. I was just thinking about how things have changed since I was in college. At Vanderbilt, and I assume at many major colleges, not only harrassment based on sexual orientation explicitly written into university policy (http://hr.vanderbilt.edu/policies/Anti-HarassmentPolicyFAQ.htm, there's also an Office for GLBT Life (http://www.vanderbilt.edu/glbt/), and benefits for same sex domestic parnters.

Thos seems like pretty major changes to me. Institutional changes don't automatically mean that the culture changes, much less individual hearts and minds, but it really seems to me that changes in institutional policies are definitely a step in the right direction.


[/list]


VandyWhit



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 7:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that the NCAA operates on a system of "soft homophobia." There are lesbian coaches, everybody knows that. Depending on the school and the occasion, they and their partners may be regarded as couples, behind the scenes. Way, way behind the scenes.


How did you come to this conclusion? Is it based on your experiences with certain colleges?


Carol Anne



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 8:03 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit wrote:
Quote:
I've come to the conclusion that the NCAA operates on a system of "soft homophobia." There are lesbian coaches, everybody knows that. Depending on the school and the occasion, they and their partners may be regarded as couples, behind the scenes. Way, way behind the scenes.


How did you come to this conclusion? Is it based on your experiences with certain colleges?


Observation over the past two decades, web research and fan gossip.


CamrnCrz1974



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 8:06 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit, maybe you are new to this or out of your element, but "soft homophobia" is VERY familiar to many gay fans of women's basketball. As Carol Anne said...observation over several years.


VandyWhit



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 8:10 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Observation over the past two decades, web research and fan gossip.



Quote:
VandyWhit, maybe you are new to this or out of your element, but "soft homophobia" is VERY familiar to many gay fans of women's basketball. As Carol Anne said...observation over several years.


Fair enough. What kinds of things have you observed and where?


Carol Anne



Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 8:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit wrote:
Quote:
Observation over the past two decades, web research and fan gossip.


Quote:
VandyWhit, maybe you are new to this or out of your element, but "soft homophobia" is VERY familiar to many gay fans of women's basketball. As Carol Anne said...observation over several years.


Fair enough. What kinds of things have you observed and where?


VandyWhit,
I'm feeling like I'm being quizzed by you on the witness stand. Ease up. Do some Google research yourself.


CamrnCrz1974



Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 8:25 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Vandy, I have had several conversations with former players. Plus, have you done ANY research regarding the WNBA memos regarding production/broadcasting, comments from Michele Van Gorp about the Liberty organization, and other well-known articles and exposure pieces on the issue of homophobia in women's basketball?


VandyWhit



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 9:01 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
Vandy, I have had several conversations with former players. Plus, have you done ANY research regarding the WNBA memos regarding production/broadcasting, comments from Michele Van Gorp about the Liberty organization, and other well-known articles and exposure pieces on the issue of homophobia in women's basketball?


I read pretty much everything people link to on here. If there's a key article that everybody's hiding, I probably haven't read it.

I think it's pretty dicey to draw conclusions about women's college basketball based on the WNBA. Women's college basketball teams are part of colleges or universities. WNBA teams are affiliated with the NBA. Colleges and the NBA are two very different kinds of institutions.

I guess the problem here is that my gut level intuition is that at most colleges, I just don't think it would be that big a deal if a coach or a player came out, and I think it's doubtful that the university would retaliate. I get the impression that I see that way differently than you guys do, and I'm just interested in why that is. But if you don't want to talk about it, it's okay with me.


(PS -- Hello, George! Smile


Carol Anne



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 9:19 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit= wrote:
I guess the problem here is that my gut level intuition is that at most colleges, I just don't think it would be that big a deal if a coach or a player came out, and I think it's doubtful that the university would retaliate. I get the impression that I see that way differently than you guys do, and I'm just interested in why that is. But if you don't want to talk about it, it's okay with me.


VandyWhit, we have been talking about it. The fact that Pam Parsons is the ONLY NCAA women's basketball coach to be known to the public as a lesbian should be proof enough to any reasonable person that college (and professional) coaches do not dare to come out as lesbians. That's it.


24duzitall



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 9:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

if it wouldn't "be such a big deal" why isn't anyone doing it?
it's because it would be a big deal. it should be obvious that no coach has stepped up to lend support to harris. as far as i know only one player-with the "i'm not gay" assurance has said anything.
as far as i know only 2 players in the w have come out. they went all through college and most of their professional careers being in. what does that tell you?



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VandyWhit



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 9:38 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
f it wouldn't "be such a big deal" why isn't anyone doing it?
it's because it would be a big deal.


That's possible. It's also possible that they *believe* that it would be a big deal, even though it wouldn't be.

It's like kids in a cabin telling scary stories. Yes, there really may be something scary out there that's gonna get you if you go outside. But then again, maybe there isn't. If that's the case, what's keeping you inside isn't the bogeyman. It's fear of the bogeyman.


Keegan



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 10:08 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit wrote:
Quote:
f it wouldn't "be such a big deal" why isn't anyone doing it?
it's because it would be a big deal.


That's possible. It's also possible that they *believe* that it would be a big deal, even though it wouldn't be.

It's like kids in a cabin telling scary stories. Yes, there really may be something scary out there that's gonna get you if you go outside. But then again, maybe there isn't. If that's the case, what's keeping you inside isn't the bogeyman. It's fear of the bogeyman.


If you believe the bogeyman exists, it exists.

Belief in the bogeyman is well founded if you've read the links posted about sporting culture and homophobia. It's all so easy to say as a dispassionate observer that athletes should come out but it's not really that easy. The whole Georgia thing in the other thread shows that there is still a homophobic athletic culture existing at some colleges (a fair few maybe?) and no amount of recanting can change that.
VandyWhit



Joined: 27 May 2005
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 10:49 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
If you believe the bogeyman exists, it exists.


Speaking generally, I don't agree. Sometimes fears are based on reality, and sometimes they aren't. The fear feels just as real either way, but sometimes the consequences that you fear don't actually materialize if you go ahead and do the thing you're afraid of.

Quote:
Belief in the bogeyman is well founded if you've read the links posted about sporting culture and homophobia. It's all so easy to say as a dispassionate observer that athletes should come out but it's not really that easy. The whole Georgia thing in the other thread shows that there is still a homophobic athletic culture existing at some colleges (a fair few maybe?) and no amount of recanting can change that.


I'm not saying that coaches should come out. I just believe that in a lot of colleges, if a coach did come out, there wouldn't be any retaliation by the institution. I could be wrong, but that's what I think.


Keegan



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: 10/21/05 11:22 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit wrote:
Quote:
If you believe the bogeyman exists, it exists.


Speaking generally, I don't agree. Sometimes fears are based on reality, and sometimes they aren't. The fear feels just as real either way, but sometimes the consequences that you fear don't actually materialize if you go ahead and do the thing you're afraid of.


Well that's my point - if somebody thinks it exists, it exists for them in their subjective reality.

As I said, it's much easier for us to rationalise it on here but out in the "real world", it's different.

There are more ramifications than just having to deal with the institution you're currently working for when publicly coming out. How about the media? Other institutions? (It could affect your future employment opportunities) People who are involved with you but who didn't know?
24duzitall



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PostPosted: 10/21/05 11:44 pm    ::: Reply Reply with quote

VandyWhit wrote:
Quote:
f it wouldn't "be such a big deal" why isn't anyone doing it?
it's because it would be a big deal.


That's possible. It's also possible that they *believe* that it would be a big deal, even though it wouldn't be.

that's possible. it's also possible that you "believe" that it wouldn't be a big deal, even though it would be.



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PUmatty



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PostPosted: 10/22/05 12:20 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Vandy -- Read this article and then try to think that homophobia is not a big thing in college sports: "How much difference is too much difference?" by Wolf-Wendel, Toma, and Morphew.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=cache:5iILS_obPvQJ:people.ku.edu/~morphew/ATHLETICSASHE.PDF+wolf-wendel+toma

Also, I would suggest the books "Jocks" and "Jocks 2" which focus on gay male athletes, many talking about their college experiences. It isn't the same as feelings towards lesbians, but it might be eye-opening since you think college sports are such an idealistic place.

Also, Mike Messner and Don Sabo have each edited several books that look at homophobia and sexism in the world of college sport. Some of the chapters are more theoretical, but there is also some empirical work.

Finally, T.J. Curry has done some fascinating research that studies behavior and conversation in both locker rooms and sports bars. The homophobia, mysogeny (which I hold is really what homophobia is) and sexism are shockingly rampant.


bluewolfvii



Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 10/22/05 12:43 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Some of you may also find interesting parts of this thread
http://66.241.240.127/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000216;p=1
from Outsports.
At issue is a successful D1 mens coach who is struggling with coming out issues.


Carol Anne



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PostPosted: 10/22/05 7:40 am    ::: HOMOPHOBIA IS NO "BOGEYMAN" Reply Reply with quote

I'd recommend Pat Griffin's book: Strong Women, Deep Closets:Lesbians and Homophobia in Sports. http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~griffin/books.html

Quote:
Dr. Griffin played basketball and field hockey at the University of Maryland and coached high school basketball and field hockey in Silver Spring, Maryland. She also coached swimming at the University of Massachusetts. She was a member of the U.S. Field Hockey squad in 1971. She won a bronze medal in the triathlon at Gay Games IV in 1994 and a gold medal in the hammer throw at Gay Games V in 1998. http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~griffin/bio.html


Quote:
The NCAA News: H: The Scarlet Letter of Sports: More people in athletics say it's time to start talking openly about homophobia. "Even in 2001, it can ruin your career to be called a homosexual. And because it is such a secret issue, there is no "proving" you are not gay. All it takes is a couple of rumors and some innuendo or assumptions...

{Laurie} Priest, an openly gay athletics director at Mount Holyoke College...noted that the environment of athletics, with its extensive time demands on both student-athletes and coaches, also makes it a difficult place to keep personal lives private.

"A typical week (for a coach or administrator in athletics) is 60 to 70 hours and often much more. It would be much easier to compartmentalize a 9-to-5 job than it is coaching or administration. For this reason, it is difficult to totally separate your personal life from your professional life," Priest said.

Priest also said that it is common to see a male heterosexual coach whose wife and children attend every game, lending moral support. For the gay and lesbian coaches, it may be possible at some institutions for a "friend" or "roommate" to attend a few games, but that's about it.

"There is a fear that if the 'friend' attends too many games, people will figure it all out," she said. "When you work in a job where you have to hide your true identity, you technically cut off an important piece of who you are, and eventually it takes its toll, particularly when the work is intense and the hours are long." http://www.ncaa.org/news/2001/20011008/active/3821n03.html


Finally, if homophobia in college sports were just a "bogeyman," would the NCAA require diversity training of all coaches and athletes on sexual orientation (as well as race and gender)? http://www1.ncaa.org/membership/ed_outreach/prof_development/diversity_training.html


VandyWhit



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PostPosted: 10/22/05 7:59 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

24duzitall wrote:
that's possible. it's also possible that you "believe" that it wouldn't be a big deal, even though it would be.


Sure. I never claimed have infalliable knowledge of the future. Smile

Keegan wrote:
Well that's my point - if somebody thinks it exists, it exists for them in their subjective reality.


I really do understand what you're saying. If you're explaining behavior, a person's "subjective reality" is more important than "objective reality."

I'm just saying that, in general, fear may or may not be based on reality. You can be of afraid of something happening, when there actually is very little danger. The fact that someone is afraid of something doesn't necessarily mean that a real danger exists. Maybe it does, or maybe it doesn't.

PUMatty wrote:
Vandy -- Read this article and then try to think that homophobia is not a big thing in college sports: "How much difference is too much difference?" by Wolf-Wendel, Toma, and Morphew.


I haven't ever said that homophobia isn't a big thing in college sports. I'm talking specifically about a hypothetical situation in which a women's college basketball coach comes out.

In that article, I don't think it's a coincidence that the only positive comments came from a women's basketball team:

Quote:
In our study, we found only one direct exception to the negativism regarding homosexuality. The first positive sentiments we heard came from members of a women’s basketball team who described a situation where several members of the team had come out. The athletes on this team explained that having one person brave enough to come out changed the environment, which allowed other student-athletes to feel more comfortable being themselves. As one athlete noted, “When I went through freshman year to junior year it changed. My freshman year people would make derogatory comments about gay people or whatever right in the locker room. It wasn’t until last year that someone came out to me. It took for her to see my tolerance in order for her to confide in me.”



And I think this is excellent:

Quote:
As American society tackled issues of race, so too did those in intercollegiate athletics, although progress was quite slow. Racial integration came earlier in the North than in the South. By the 1950s, there were a few African-Americans competing in sports like football and track in the North, although there were still cases of African American players on Northern football teams being held out of games based on the demands of Southern opponents (Watterson, 2000). In basketball, the first African American players did not compete in college basketball in conferences like the Big Ten until the early 1950s. In the South, it was 1966 before North Carolina and Davidson integrated their teams. It would not be until the 1970s that most Southern teams allowed African-Americans to compete in basketball as well as football. A turning point for the integration of athletics occurred during the 1966 NCAA Finals where the perennially powerful, but all-white Kentucky Wildcats lost to an integrated upstart team from Texas Western. Even then, however, there were quotas for the number of African-American players on a given squad, as well as unwritten limits on the number of African-Americans that could be on the court at any one time (Watterson, 2000). Today, these types of racial barriers for athletes have been eliminated. Sports had become much more of a meritocracy, raising the level of competition on the field and court. Indeed, people of color often form the majority on teams, especially in basketball, football and track and field (NCAA, 1996).

In our society, similar rights and progress for gays and lesbians have only recently begun to emerge. Although Stonewall is 30 years past, federal civil rights laws still do not include an express provision protecting people on the basis of their sexual orientation; state legislation sanctioning civil unions is just now emerging; and there is still considerable controversy associated with “coming out.” At the same time, issues pertaining to homosexuality are more openly discussed than ever before and have a forum via the media that seems to have helped raise the level of discourse about homosexuality. For example, homosexuality was raised as a major issue in all three presidential debates, and the media demonstrated public outrage at the death of Mathew Sheppard and the hateful acts engaged in by Fred Phelps. Even the airing and acclaim of such television shows as Ellen and Will & Grace have helped to elevate American society’s views of homosexuality. Yet, while things are better on some fronts than they were only a few years ago, there is nothing approaching the advances American society has made in race and gender equality. And, there has been a public backlash in response to each of these steps forward. As cited earlier, heterosexism and homophobia continue to exist on college campuses throughout the country (Black, Oles & Moore, 1998; Eliason, 1997; Engstrom & Sedlacek, 1997; Geasler ,Croteau, Heineman, & Edlund, 1995; Geller, 1991; Schellenberg, Hirt & Sears, 1999; Simoni,
1996).


See, this is what I think. I think things have changed, and are changing. I also think it's notable that there's not a single reference in this article later than 2000, probably because that's when the article was published (I didn't see a publication date).

I know that's only five years ago, but Vanderbilt (as an example) first extended benefits to same sex domestic partners in 2000, added "sexual orientation" to its non-discrimination policy in 2001, and the Office of GLBT Life since then.

I'm not naive enough to believe that institutional changes instantaneously change attitudes. I grew up in the South in segregated schools. I was a teenager in the 60s and can remember the day they called a school assembly to tell us that our high school for the first time would have "colored" students. Now, forty years later, racism still exists (see Candace Parker's report in the CNN diary that someone at UT shouted the N-word at her not long after she arrived), but the changes are simply mind-boggling nonetheless.

But it takes time, and as the authors aptly point out, the movement against discrimination based on sexual orientation is much more recent. When we're talking specifically about WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL, I think it's significant that in the past five years colleges have changed their policies to address discrimination against students and employees on the basis of sexual orientation.

Once institutional safeguards are in place, if they are enforced, the environment within the institution will change. I think that's happening. But since we're only talking about the past few years, observations, research and anecdotes from ten years ago aren't going to reflect it.


VandyWhit



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PostPosted: 10/22/05 8:22 am    ::: Reply Reply with quote

Quote:
if homophobia in college sports were just a "bogeyman,"


I think I'm going to scream!




I have NEVER EVER said, nor implied, that homophobia in college sports is a "bogeyman."

I am talking about a specific situation -- i.e., a WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL coach coming out.

What I said was, "My gut level intuition is that at most colleges, I just don't think it would be that big a deal if a coach or a player came out, and I think it's doubtful that the university would retaliate."

I don't think all college sports are equal, either in their attitude or in the possible results of a coach coming out.

I think it would be a huge deal if a BCS football coach came out. I don't think it would be much of a deal at all if a coach of a women's Olympic sports team at a small college came out.

I could be wrong, of course, but when we're talking specifically about WOMEN'S COLLEGE BASKETBALL (which I am) AT THE PRESENT TIME (which I am), it isn't too useful to throw everything in college sports over the past forty years into one big basket.


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