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ILuvCatch
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
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 Posted: 10/22/05 9:54 am ::: |
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| as far as i know only 2 players in the w have come out. they went all through college and most of their professional careers being in. what does that tell you? |
So you're saying that in order for a player to be "out", they have to verbally state it?
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:40 am ::: |
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| ILuvCatch wrote: |
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| as far as i know only 2 players in the w have come out. they went all through college and most of their professional careers being in. what does that tell you? |
So you're saying that in order for a player to be "out", they have to verbally state it? |
There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of this discussion, yes.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:43 am ::: |
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iluvcatch: So you're saying that in order for a player to be "out", they have to verbally state it?'
Blue: There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of this discussion, yes. |
Whoa, I missed that memo!
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:50 am ::: |
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| There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of the discussion we are having, yes. If a person has not acknowledged at some point in their life being a lesbian, bi-sexual, or even a straight person who was exploring their sexuality with a fling, the love' that dare not speak its name' will continue to be the 'crime' that the Portlands recruit against and try to police out of their programs, that kids get beat up for on campus, and that religious zealots try to take amend state constitutions to outlaw those university anti-discrimination ordinances that in some cases don't have much teeth, anyway.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:56 am ::: |
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| There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of the discussion we are having, yes. If a person has not acknowledged at some point in their life being a lesbian, bi-sexual, or even a straight person who was exploring their sexuality with a fling, the love' that dare not speak its name' will continue to be the 'crime' that the Portlands recruit against and try to police out of their programs, that kids get beat up for on campus, and that religious zealots try to take amend state constitutions to outlaw those university anti-discrimination ordinances that in some cases don't have much teeth, anyway. |
Well, I guess the question I have is . . . say to whom? Does it have to be published in the newspaper? And why does it have to be publicly announced, anyway? If a woman is a lesbian and just goes about living her life without hiding the fact that she's a lesbian, then she's not "out"? Sorry, but that makes no sense to me.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 11:33 am ::: |
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| Well, I guess the question I have is . . . say to whom? Does it have to be published in the newspaper? And why does it have to be publicly announced, anyway? If a woman is a lesbian and just goes about living her life without hiding the fact that she's a lesbian, then she's not "out"? Sorry, but that makes no sense to me. |
It's okay, it never made any sense to me either. But if no one is 'out', outside of a small circle of family and friends, then the 'suspected lesbians' continue to be the targets, even when they are just kids like Jennifer Harris.
In terms of being out, I don't know how one gets known outside of one's circle, but word gets around. I'd love to be in the position again of deciding whether or not to 'out' myself at work. I'd do it for myself and I'd do it sooner. I lost my job of 23 years within 12 mos of being outed, but can't prove it and don't know for sure it was why, even. But I live in a city not too far from Penn State where GLBT do not walk down the street holding hands, unless one wants to get their arse kicked. No one at my corporate center was GLBT besides me, it seems, even though we had 1500+ staff. So if I was let go because I was gay, it was the deafening silence of people like me in not being open about it that set it up.
Van Gorp came out with it in a lesbian magazine interview that the mainstream media then picked up on. Wicks just decided to answer a question truthfully. We wouldn't be talking about either, except that they are the only two we know of (or can talk about because we don't want to cause trouble for the others) in the WNBA or NCAA.
We could tick off about 20 players between us who are gay, and we can name them not because they came out but because they have been outed. But we won't name them except in code words, because we don't want to cause them the trouble we as GLBT people know is around the corner.. the stigma, the cost in lost relationships, jobs, endorsements, etc., the intrusion.
It just isn't easy, but I'm glad we are talking about it.
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24duzitall
Joined: 19 May 2005
Posts: 1293
Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: 10/22/05 11:50 am ::: |
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the point i was attempting to make was that i only know of 2(add byers to make it 3) basketball players who have publicly declared that they are gay. when they came out it was after their careers had peaked. i was using this as an exmple to illustrate the point that ,imho, there is an issue with being out in womens' college and pro basketball.
i am 41. i have been involved in basketball since i was big enough to hold one. i have never seen a situation where being known to be out was ok. someday i hope it isn't a big deal. i hope that coaches aren't allowed to use their own hatred and bigotry to berate their players. i hope that coaches will no longer use it as a recruiting tool. i hope that others don't use this situation to further bash women in basketball. i hope that more players have the courage to try to stop monsters like rp.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 9:34 pm ::: |
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| It's okay, it never made any sense to me either. But if no one is 'out', outside of a small circle of family and friends, then the 'suspected lesbians' continue to be the targets, even when they are just kids like Jennifer Harris. |
I'm not quite following. If every person who is gay was "out" and everybody knew it, then people who are anti-gay wouldn't target "suspected lesbians". But if you don't know that every lesbian is out, then "suspected lesbians' could still be targeted. And I don't see why it would be better to have actual lesbians targeted instead of suspected lesbians.
Anyhow, back to the question of whether in order to be "out" for purposes of this discussion, here's where I'm coming from.
If a lesbian is going about living her life, but either isn't given a public platform for making a statement that she's a lesbian, or else doesn't see any reason to make an explicit publication, I don't see why we shouldn't consider her to be "out". The opposite of "out", I would think, is making an explicit effort to hide your sexual orientation. If you aren't doing anything to hide it, then I think for purposes of this discussion, you're "out", even if you haven't had a reason to make a public statement to that effect.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone is "out" or not. I just want wcbb coaches, staff and players) to be able to live their lives the way they want to without fear of repercussions. If they're doing that, it doesn't matter to me whether they make a public statement about their sexual orientation. What they're doing seems more important to me than whether they announce that they're doing it.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:04 pm ::: |
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| Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone is "out" or not. I just want wcbb coaches, staff and players) to be able to live their lives the way they want to without fear of repercussions. If they're doing that, it doesn't matter to me whether they make a public statement about their sexual orientation. What they're doing seems more important to me than whether they announce that they're doing it. |
Absolutely. We agree.
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24duzitall
Joined: 19 May 2005
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Location: Kentucky
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| Posted: 10/22/05 10:50 pm ::: |
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Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone is "out" or not. I just want wcbb coaches, staff and players) to be able to live their lives the way they want to without fear of repercussions. If they're doing that, it doesn't matter to me whether they make a public statement about their sexual orientation. What they're doing seems more important to me than whether they announce that they're doing it.
yes, we do agree.
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RIP my sweet boy Indi...my grumpy old man Charlie...precious Oliver and my sweet girl Faith
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/23/05 7:28 am ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
| Personally, it doesn't matter to me if someone is "out" or not. I just want wcbb coaches, staff and players) to be able to live their lives the way they want to without fear of repercussions. If they're doing that, it doesn't matter to me whether they make a public statement about their sexual orientation. What they're doing seems more important to me than whether they announce that they're doing it. |
| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| Absolutely. We agree. |
| 24duzitall wrote: |
| yes, we do agree. |
Okay, then.  When it comes to the basics, it looks like we're pretty much on the same page, so let's plunge on.
First, for blue, going back to this exchange . . .
| Quote: |
luvcatch: So you're saying that in order for a player to be "out", they have to verbally state it?'
Blue: There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of this discussion, yes. |
. . . is there anything we need to clear up about that now?
Going back to iluvcatch's question, I'm pretty confident that are in fact some lesbians in wcbb who go about living their lives without particular attempts to disguise their sexual orientation. Maybe it makes more sense to use the phrase 'openly gay' from the recent post of Carol Anne's about the mess at Fresno State rather than 'being out.' If it's important to distinguish the two -- living the life vs. making an explicit public statement -- we could use different terms, like "openly gay" vs. "being out." Not to nitpick, but just trying to come up with some common vocabulary.
Let's see how we do with that then see where we go from here.
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/23/05 10:36 am ::: |
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First, for blue, going back to this exchange . . .
| Quote: |
luvcatch: So you're saying that in order for a player to be "out", they have to verbally state it?'
Blue: There are layers of 'outness', but for purposes of this discussion, yes. |
. . . is there anything we need to clear up about that now? |
Here's how I see it, Vandy.
For every player who is known to be out, there will be 100 others more comfortable disclosing their sexual orientation to a small circle of teammates and friends. When we get to a critical mass of people doing the latter, then it won't be an issue anymore. But until we get a few more of the former, the fact that only two players are known to be out since Parsons and Buck tells me there is a problem with being out, as 24duzitall said.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/23/05 11:43 am ::: |
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| Vandy, you just don't get it. You seem to think that players aren't coming out is the problem. I hate to say it, but unless you have to go through the coming out process, I seriously doubt if you will ever understand the process or how hard it is.
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: 10/23/05 12:10 pm ::: Coming out to others never ends |
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When I was a teenage lesbian (great movie title, huh?), to "come out" didn't mean to tell other people you were gay. It meant to make love with someone of your own sex, a person who "brought you out." It was highly unlikely that the two people involved told anybody, much less their families.
During my lifetime, the meaning of "come out" has changed greatly. Here's a more current definition from the Human Rights Campaign Fund website:
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Coming out means identifying and accepting yourself as a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender person. The first person you have to reveal this to is yourself, and you can do it at any time in your life — in your teens, middle age or old age. Coming out really didn't prove I was tolerant (there are bigoted gays, too), but what else could I say?
Coming out to others is something that you are likely to do repeatedly. For example, you may come out to a family member, friend or co-worker, or you may do it while filling out a credit card application or seeing a doctor. In almost all cases, the more often you do it, the easier it becomes.
http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Section=Frequently_Asked_Questions1&Template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=21978 |
"Coming out to others is something that you are likely to do repeatedly." In my last round of job interviews, I found myself coming out to several prospective employers, something I'd never done in the past. But, I live in fairly progressive Seattle and the interviewers all asked about my ability to work with diverse co-workers. So I said, "No problem; I'm gay," and they were happy. There have been no negative repercussions for me. Whew!
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/23/05 9:04 pm ::: |
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For every player who is known to be out, there will be 100 others more comfortable disclosing their sexual orientation to a small circle of teammates and friends. When we get to a critical mass of people doing the latter, then it won't be an issue anymore. But until we get a few more of the former, the fact that only two players are known to be out since Parsons and Buck tells me there is a problem with being out, as 24duzitall said.
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Okay, I get the gist of what you're saying. If there were more people out, it'd make it easier for other people to come out, which in turn would make it easier for other people, and eventually the issue would disappear. Is that more or less right? if so, I agree.
If so, then ultimately doesn't it come down to the willingness of more people to come out, or at least to start living their lives as lesbian a little more openly?
Yes, there are things the institutions and other people can do that would probably make it easier, including making and enforcing anti-discrimination policies, requiring diversity training, and becoming more vocal about anti-gay language and actions not being tolerated. I think that would help. But I just don't see how that critical mass is ever going to exist until there are more people willing to take the plunge. Am I missing something?
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/23/05 9:08 pm ::: |
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"Coming out to others is something that you are likely to do repeatedly." In my last round of job interviews, I found myself coming out to several prospective employers, something I'd never done in the past. But, I live in fairly progressive Seattle and the interviewers all asked about my ability to work with diverse co-workers. So I said, "No problem; I'm gay," and they were happy. There have been no negative repercussions for me. Whew!
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Y'know, I really do think things are changing. The mere fact that you were asked about your ability to work with "diverse co-workers" is a change from times past, much less their response.
I think if you want to encourage more people, including people involved in wbb, stories like yours are the ones that will help. Stories of bad things that happened to people in the past probably help to perpetuate the idea that bad things will happen to you if come out.
JMO.
BTW, I went to Seattle for the first time last spring for the 1st and 2nd rounds of the NCAA tournament. I loved it. Lucky you!!
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bluewolfvii
Joined: 08 Mar 2005
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| Posted: 10/24/05 9:25 am ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
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For every player who is known to be out, there will be 100 others more comfortable disclosing their sexual orientation to a small circle of teammates and friends. When we get to a critical mass of people doing the latter, then it won't be an issue anymore. But until we get a few more of the former, the fact that only two players are known to be out since Parsons and Buck tells me there is a problem with being out, as 24duzitall said.
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Okay, I get the gist of what you're saying. If there were more people out, it'd make it easier for other people to come out, which in turn would make it easier for other people, and eventually the issue would disappear. Is that more or less right? if so, I agree.
If so, then ultimately doesn't it come down to the willingness of more people to come out, or at least to start living their lives as lesbian a little more openly?
Yes, there are things the institutions and other people can do that would probably make it easier, including making and enforcing anti-discrimination policies, requiring diversity training, and becoming more vocal about anti-gay language and actions not being tolerated. I think that would help. But I just don't see how that critical mass is ever going to exist until there are more people willing to take the plunge. Am I missing something? |
Definitely more people have to take the plunge, and the things that institutions and other people can do are important and helpful. But the thing that helps people cope with coming out issues the most, imo, is hearing about other gays in their circle, school, sport, or profession, e.g., healthy role models.
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VandyWhit
Joined: 27 May 2005
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| Posted: 10/24/05 10:28 am ::: |
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Definitely more people have to take the plunge, and the things that institutions and other people can do are important and helpful. But the thing that helps people cope with coming out issues the most, imo, is hearing about other gays in their circle, school, sport, or profession, e.g., healthy role models.
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Okay, we're still on the same wavelength. It's kind of a Catch-22, isn't it? If there were more role models it would help other people to come out, but until more people come out, there's a scarcity of role models.
What I've been thinking about is what those of us who are fans can do, in our own small way, to make the environment more hospitable.
For example, I'm thinking about one booster club meeting last year. One of the players had had a good game, and somebody made a wisecrack about her boyfriend being in town being a reason for it, producing lots of laughter. I think that sends some bad messages. It tells anybody who was there that (a) fans are observing your personal life, and (b) they have no qualms about it publicly, even if you haven't broached the subject publicly yourself. It also seems like it would emphasize the fact that lots and lots of people can relate to a player having a boyfriend, which conceivably could make someone feel isolated and doubtful about being accepted. Not sure about that, it just kinda seems like it perpetuates the idea that of course, everybody is heterosexual.
It's just a little bitty thing, no bad intentions, but I'm kinda thinking that maybe a lot of those little bitty things put together help maintain a relatively hostile environment -- or at least one that would be perceived that way for someone looking at it from the other side. I'm wondering what some of those things might be. Maybe all of us who are fans could help in our own little ways, if we just had a better idea about what we should/shouldn't be doing.
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Zakiwi
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Oakland, CA
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| Posted: 10/24/05 12:11 pm ::: WBB coaches coming out? |
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| I don't think a coach coming out would necessarily face retaliation by the school, but that's not where the problem lies. Coaches have to recruit, every year, and those perceived to be lesbians are the victims of smear campaigns from other schools. Here's a link to an article in 2003: http://www.la.utexas.edu/~seant/bbal_lesbian.html (Actually, it was a 2-part article, but I can't seem to find the link to the second part. In the 2nd piece, Chelsea Trotter's mother praises Tara Van Derveer for how she treated her daughter, esp. when Chelsea was injured, and says she has no regrets going to Stanford.) Homophobia is alive and well in this country.
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/24/05 12:27 pm ::: |
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Vandy, one of the problems is that whenever there is a discussion of religion, there is a presumption, on both sides of the aisle, that it is homophobic. You can be religious and be pro-gay, but many don't see it that way.
There are many more people coming out, which is great. But women face a much bigger challenge in that they have to fight misogyny as well as homophobia. Straight female athletes still have to deal with misogyny, but for lesbian/bisexual athletes, there is more discrimination to face.
And let us not forget...for every few great coming out stories, there are the stories of Matthew Sheppard and Gwen Araujo.
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 10/24/05 12:48 pm ::: |
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| VandyWhit wrote: |
| Maybe all of us who are fans could help in our own little ways, if we just had a better idea about what we should/shouldn't be doing. |
My suggestions: talk to booster club members about what is going on at Penn State. Urge them to learn more about homophobia in women's college basketball. Should there be openly gay members of the group, ask for their input. If your coach speaks to the booster club, ask about Vanderbilt's commitment to its anti-discrimination policy.
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Carol Anne
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
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| Posted: 10/24/05 1:37 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| And let us not forget...for every few great coming out stories, there are the stories of Matthew Sheppard and Gwen Araujo. |
And Sakia Gunn.
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 10/25/05 7:13 pm ::: |
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| bluewolfvii wrote: |
| the fact that only two players are known to be out since Parsons and Buck tells me there is a problem with being out, as 24duzitall said. |
Perhaps it would make a difference if someone little more high profile came out. Wicks was a role player and Van Gorp a bencher.
Suppose a player with a history of being popular among fans (such as being voted on to the All Star team several times), who had won multiple WNBA titles (or gold medals), or who had won league awards (maybe even an MVP) were to publicly come out. Would that have a greater impact than Wicks and/or Van Gorp? What if it was someone who had made statements that could be considered homophobic in the past? Would that make a difference?
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 10/25/05 7:17 pm ::: |
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| Pilight, you read my mind. Please read into that. (wink, wink)
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pilight
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