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WBBmanic
Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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 Posted: 11/13/13 10:18 am ::: Coaches on the hot seat |
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| We all know that in-season changes are rare - but who is off to starts that could be costing jobs come the end of the season?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 11/13/13 1:21 pm ::: |
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While I think it is way premature after only 1 or 2 games, two jump out at me:
1 - Joanne Boyle (UVA) - you know, she got a pass last year because they were devastated by injuries, but they've got the players back from injuries, they've got some good freshmen, they were supposed to be making a big step up, and they weren't supposed to be losing to James Madison.
2- UNC - I have no idea if Sylvia Hatchell is ever going to return to coaching or not. I hope she recovers and returns. But if she doesn't, and if Andrew Calder thought he was a candidate to be her permanent replacement, that chaotic mess he put on national TV on Monday night certainly couldn't have helped his cause any.
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NationalInsider
Joined: 09 Mar 2010
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| Posted: 11/13/13 4:23 pm ::: |
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| Florida - Got out rebounded by UNF by 10 only won by 11 playing a horrible non-conference schedule and tallest kid healthy on the team is 6-0 ....
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NoDakSt
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 11/26/13 9:12 pm ::: |
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| Arizona is 1-5. Yikes!!
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FollowtheCardinalRule
Joined: 12 Oct 2011
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| Posted: 11/27/13 11:29 am ::: |
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| NationalInsider wrote: |
| Florida - Got out rebounded by UNF by 10 only won by 11 playing a horrible non-conference schedule and tallest kid healthy on the team is 6-0 .... |
Florida beat St. John's. That should help. St. John's is a pretty recognizable name for a team to beat even if it is a down year for the Johnnies.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 11/27/13 11:44 am ::: |
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| NoDakSt wrote: |
| Arizona is 1-5. Yikes!! |
A few years ago, UCLA and Arizona were both looking for new coaches, and both saved money by hiring a Tennessee assistant at a very low rate.
UCLA got lucky with Nikki Caldwell, who laid the foundation for Cori Close.
Arizona struck out on Niya Butts, who has done nothing with a program that was in bad shape when she got it.
So the question is will Arizona's administration decide to spend more money to increase its chances of upgrading the program, or lowball another assistant from a top program and hope for the best.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 11/27/13 12:59 pm ::: |
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I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach.
But I guess my jury is still out on Neighbors here at UW. I understand the hiring was a good decision due to timing and recruiting, but my expectations aren't particularly high. I'm too cynical after watching assistants fail to make the grade repeatedly. Perhaps I'm cherry-picking data.
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purduefanatic
Joined: 10 Aug 2011
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| Posted: 11/27/13 1:18 pm ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach.
But I guess my jury is still out on Neighbors here at UW. I understand the hiring was a good decision due to timing and recruiting, but my expectations aren't particularly high. I'm too cynical after watching assistants fail to make the grade repeatedly. Perhaps I'm cherry-picking data. |
Pretty much every single head coach out there was an assistant at one point to begin their career...
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mzonefan
Joined: 15 Oct 2005
Posts: 4878
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
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| Posted: 11/27/13 8:59 pm ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| norwester wrote: |
I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach.
But I guess my jury is still out on Neighbors here at UW. I understand the hiring was a good decision due to timing and recruiting, but my expectations aren't particularly high. I'm too cynical after watching assistants fail to make the grade repeatedly. Perhaps I'm cherry-picking data. |
Pretty much every single head coach out there was an assistant at one point to begin their career... |
Strangely enough, both of Michigan's head BB coaches have never been assistants.
Then there's Sherri Coale at OU who went directly from H.S. to OU..
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pilight
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 11/27/13 9:46 pm ::: |
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| norwester wrote: |
| I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach. |
Geno Auriemma went from being an assistant at Virginia to HC at UConn. It's worked out OK so far. Kim Mulkey went from assistant at La Tech to HC at Baylor. She's done alright also.
12 of the last 15 national championships have been won by teams with head coaches on their first HC job. Only three of those 15 have been won by coaches who were hired from other HC jobs.
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dfineguy
Joined: 05 Oct 2008
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| Posted: 11/28/13 1:24 am ::: |
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| purduefanatic wrote: |
| norwester wrote: |
I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach.
But I guess my jury is still out on Neighbors here at UW. I understand the hiring was a good decision due to timing and recruiting, but my expectations aren't particularly high. I'm too cynical after watching assistants fail to make the grade repeatedly. Perhaps I'm cherry-picking data. |
Pretty much every single head coach out there was an assistant at one point to begin their career... |
Of course, but very few assistants find immediate success at a top-level D-1 program. Assistant from Uconn at Cincinnati is struggling as is Neighbors at Washington. I think the first year or 2 as a head coach at any D-1 school has administrative duties that few assistants are prepared for.
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norwester
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
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| Posted: 11/28/13 5:43 pm ::: |
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| dfineguy wrote: |
| purduefanatic wrote: |
| norwester wrote: |
I'm generally not in favor of hiring assistants. In my opinion a pretty good coach from a mid-major will do better than an assistant from a top program. I think there's a big learning curve from assistant to head coach.
But I guess my jury is still out on Neighbors here at UW. I understand the hiring was a good decision due to timing and recruiting, but my expectations aren't particularly high. I'm too cynical after watching assistants fail to make the grade repeatedly. Perhaps I'm cherry-picking data. |
Pretty much every single head coach out there was an assistant at one point to begin their career... |
Of course, but very few assistants find immediate success at a top-level D-1 program. Assistant from Uconn at Cincinnati is struggling as is Neighbors at Washington. I think the first year or 2 as a head coach at any D-1 school has administrative duties that few assistants are prepared for. |
Yeah. I mean, we can find exceptions. No kidding. Doesn't change the factbthat the direct jump is tough. I'm just saying I'd be more comfortable with an assistant making their bones as HC at a smaller program before making the jump to a higher profile D1 school. Even Geno went to a CT program that was a non-entity...there were no real lofty expectations and he had the chance to learn as he built the program.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 11/29/13 10:16 am ::: |
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To me, the ideal progression would be
assistant at mid-major
assistant at elite program
head coach at mid-major
head coach at elite program
Some people, of course, are capable of stepping right in as a head coach at an elite program, and for others, it doesn't matter how much preparation they have.
As with everything in life, there is no perfect system, but I think the odds of success are greater if a coach goes through the above process and learns from the inevitable mistakes along the way.
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WBBmanic
Joined: 11 Nov 2013
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| Posted: 11/29/13 1:13 pm ::: |
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| I agree to some extent, but I think that top assistants, especially recruiting coordinators, at BCS programs are top candidates to step into a BCS head coaching job. Really, it seems down to having a plan, and recognizing that you have one shot to get it right.
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kool-aide
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 12/02/13 8:25 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
To me, the ideal progression would be
assistant at mid-major
assistant at elite program
head coach at mid-major
head coach at elite program
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Out of curiosity, how many of the elite coaches have actually done your "ideal progression" with their career? Or how many elite programs (even if the coach is not yet considered elite) have hired coaches who have followed this ideal of yours? I'm asking because I can't really think of many that have.
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ClayK
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
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| Posted: 12/02/13 8:52 am ::: |
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I'm pretty sure Joanne Boyle at Virginia did, and so did Lindsay Gottlieb at Cal.
Cori Close at UCLA, again I'm pretty sure ...
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dtsnms
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 12/02/13 12:48 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm pretty sure Joanne Boyle at Virginia did, and so did Lindsay Gottlieb at Cal.
Cori Close at UCLA, again I'm pretty sure ... |
Curt Miller, Indiana Universtiy
| Quote: |
| Prior to his time at Bowling Green, Miller was the associate head coach at Colorado State University, helping CSU to an 81-20 (.802) overall record during his three seasons there. Before his time in Colorado, Miller spent four years as an assistant coach at Syracuse University after serving as an assistant coach at Cleveland State University for three seasons. Miller began his collegiate coaching career as a volunteer assistant at Kent State University. |
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TechDawgMc
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
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| Posted: 12/02/13 8:13 pm ::: |
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| kool-aide wrote: |
Out of curiosity, how many of the elite coaches have actually done your "ideal progression" with their career? Or how many elite programs (even if the coach is not yet considered elite) have hired coaches who have followed this ideal of yours? I'm asking because I can't really think of many that have. |
Gary Blair is pretty close -- went from assistant at La Tech during heyday (sort of cross between major and mid-major) to mid-major SFA to major Arkansas and A&M.
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kool-aide
Joined: 09 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 12/03/13 8:57 am ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
I'm pretty sure Joanne Boyle at Virginia did, and so did Lindsay Gottlieb at Cal.
Cori Close at UCLA, again I'm pretty sure ... |
Boyle was never an assistant at a mid-major. She went from playing to assistant at Duke to head at Richmond to Cal to UVA.
Gottlieb did a bunch of assistant spots b/f getting a head gig so I think you're right that she did but not in a linear progression.
I looked up Close's bio b/c I didn't know her path. Her assistant gigs started at UCLA, then UCSB, the FSU. She was never a head coach (according to her UCLA bio) until the UCLA job. So she doesn't fit your ideal path--quite the opposite -- she's a "major assistant hired for first head coaching gig" example.
Given where women's basketball was when Gary Blair started, I don't really think you can include him in the "how to plot a career." It's like saying someone just out of college might be fine because of what Pat Summitt was able to build at UT.
So, when only maybe 2-4 in the profession at the top schools actually followed what you think is the ideal, can you really say that is the ideal path? If it is ideal, wouldn't more top coaches fit the description?
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mred
Joined: 19 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 12/03/13 10:27 am ::: |
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| kool-aide wrote: |
Out of curiosity, how many of the elite coaches have actually done your "ideal progression" with their career? Or how many elite programs (even if the coach is not yet considered elite) have hired coaches who have followed this ideal of yours? I'm asking because I can't really think of many that have. |
Another example to add is Bill Fennelly. Worked his way up as an assistant (William Penn (IA), Fresno State, Notre Dame) then as a head coach (Toledo, Iowa State).
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/03/13 11:41 am ::: |
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Muffet McGraw didn't have two level as an assistant, but otherwise. . .
3 yrs coaching Archbishop Carroll High School in Philly
Then played in the old WBL
2 years as an assistant to Jim Foster at St. Joe's (her alma mater)
5 years as head coach at Lehigh
Now in her 27th year at Notre Dame
Gary Blair also only had one job as an assistant but like McGraw had HS HC experience:
7 years at South Oak Cliff HS in Dallas (239-18 record)
5 yrs as an asst at La Tech (4 final fours and 2 national championships)
8 yrs at Stephen F. Austin
9 yrs at Arkansas
Now in his 11th year at aTm.
Kevin McGuff fits the "profile" perfectly
Asst at Miami U (OH)
6 yrs as asst at Notre Dame
9 yrs as HC at Xavier
2 yrs as HC at Washington
Now in his 1st yr at Ohio St.
Joanne McCallie also only had one asst's job (Auburn) before becoming HC at Maine, and then MSU and Duke.
Pitt's new head coach, Suzie McConnell-Serio, has a somewhat different resume:
Former WNBA player
2 time Olympic Gold Medalist
13 yrs at Oakland Catholic High School
3 years as HC of the Minnesota Lynx (2004 WNBA Coach of the Year)
6 years as HC at Duquesne
By the way, I think she was a tremendous hire for Pitt
Quentin Hillsman (who I think has done a terrific job at Syracuse) also had a somewhat different path, coaching girls BB in HS, serving as an assistant at Alabama, American, and Siena. Serving as an asst on the men's team at St. Mary's (MD). And now in his 8th year in his first HC job at Syracuse.
Jonathon Tsipis's path is also somewhat different with his early experience being on the men's side. He served as a grad ass't to Mike Krzyzewski at Duke, then was on the men's staff at Cornell, was an ass't on the men's teams at Le Moyne and Elon, then as a year as director of men's basketball operations at UNC-Greensboro. From that job he was hired by Muffet McGraw and spent 9 years on her staff at Notre Dame (I suspect it was his connection to Fran McCaffery who was then men's head coach at UNC-Greensboro (now at Iowa) and was a well liked former ND men's assistant that opened the door for the job at ND). Now he is in his first HC job at George Washington.
So it looks like ass't, to mid-major HC, to major HC may be a common progression (including of several highly successful coaches) without the two step assistant progression, but there are a lot of alternative paths, and there seem to be quite a few who had some HS coaching experience as well (although that is likely becoming less common among the younger coaches).
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/20/13 4:57 pm ::: |
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Joanne Boyle (UVA) has to top this list. With a bunch of players returning from injury and a good recruiting class, they were supposed to be fighting for position in that 5-8 pack in the ACC and be much improved. But they've lost to James Madison, WVU, KSU, Tenn, and Mich, and now today they are down 23-11 to Tulane. (EDIT - Tulane beat UVA in OT)
It wasn't supposed to be like this this year.
Her seat has to be getting pretty warm.
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Durantula
Joined: 30 Mar 2013
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| Posted: 12/20/13 8:17 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Joanne Boyle (UVA) has to top this list. With a bunch of players returning from injury and a good recruiting class, they were supposed to be fighting for position in that 5-8 pack in the ACC and be much improved. But they've lost to James Madison, WVU, KSU, Tenn, and Mich, and now today they are down 23-11 to Tulane. (EDIT - Tulane beat UVA in OT)
It wasn't supposed to be like this this year.
Her seat has to be getting pretty warm. |
She signed a 5 year deal and is just starting year three. What AD will fire a head coach two years remaining at $700k a year? Only in football and men's basketball do you see that type of financial sacrifice. In women's basketball you need to look at the contract length. Arizona is similar, 2-7 record but did Butts get a recent extension? Rutgers Stringer is on the last year of her deal so she will have to get a new contract if she wants to stay. New AD may want a new direction?
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ArtBest23
Joined: 02 Jul 2013
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| Posted: 12/20/13 8:51 pm ::: |
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| Durantula wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Joanne Boyle (UVA) has to top this list. With a bunch of players returning from injury and a good recruiting class, they were supposed to be fighting for position in that 5-8 pack in the ACC and be much improved. But they've lost to James Madison, WVU, KSU, Tenn, and Mich, and now today they are down 23-11 to Tulane. (EDIT - Tulane beat UVA in OT)
It wasn't supposed to be like this this year.
Her seat has to be getting pretty warm. |
She signed a 5 year deal and is just starting year three. What AD will fire a head coach two years remaining at $700k a year? Only in football and men's basketball do you see that type of financial sacrifice. In women's basketball you need to look at the contract length. Arizona is similar, 2-7 record but did Butts get a recent extension? Rutgers Stringer is on the last year of her deal so she will have to get a new contract if she wants to stay. New AD may want a new direction? |
Just because she has a $700k salary and two years doesn't mean firing her costs $1.4M. There is likely a much much smaller buyout.
And what you raise is exactly the point. Getting rid of the double standard and demanding excellence from your WBB coach just like you do from your MBB coach is a heck of a lot more important than worrying about a few men getting head coaching jobs. The only reason those coaches don't get fired is because the administrations don't take WBB seriously. THAT is the real problem. And if they don't take it seriously, why would you expect students and alums and potential fans to do so?
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loneycafe
Joined: 17 Oct 2009
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| Posted: 12/20/13 10:12 pm ::: |
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| ArtBest23 wrote: |
| Durantula wrote: |
| ArtBest23 wrote: |
Joanne Boyle (UVA) has to top this list. With a bunch of players returning from injury and a good recruiting class, they were supposed to be fighting for position in that 5-8 pack in the ACC and be much improved. But they've lost to James Madison, WVU, KSU, Tenn, and Mich, and now today they are down 23-11 to Tulane. (EDIT - Tulane beat UVA in OT)
It wasn't supposed to be like this this year.
Her seat has to be getting pretty warm. |
She signed a 5 year deal and is just starting year three. What AD will fire a head coach two years remaining at $700k a year? Only in football and men's basketball do you see that type of financial sacrifice. In women's basketball you need to look at the contract length. Arizona is similar, 2-7 record but did Butts get a recent extension? Rutgers Stringer is on the last year of her deal so she will have to get a new contract if she wants to stay. New AD may want a new direction? |
Just because she has a $700k salary and two years doesn't mean firing her costs $1.4M. There is likely a much much smaller buyout.
And what you raise is exactly the point. Getting rid of the double standard and demanding excellence from your WBB coach just like you do from your MBB coach is a heck of a lot more important than worrying about a few men getting head coaching jobs. The only reason those coaches don't get fired is because the administrations don't take WBB seriously. THAT is the real problem. And if they don't take it seriously, why would you expect students and alums and potential fans to do so? |
I imagine Boyle will get another year, but next season is do or die. Anybody who follows the team closely have any insight into what the problems are?
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