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WNBA 09
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caune
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CRASH
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ClayK
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 Posted: 03/24/10 11:20 am ::: |
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I think it comes down to this:
Was giving Riley free rein the best possible strategy for Oklahoma State?
Obviously, Kurt Budke thought it was, and Oklahoma State did pretty well following that plan.
It could be that the Cowboys would have been better with a more balanced attack, but that assumes that the non-Rileys would have been more productive than Riley given the opportunities taken away from Riley.
I'm not a big Riley fan, but there's no question she can make plays at the offensive end, and it's not a given that the other players would have done as well or better had they been given the same number of possessions.
Budke's a pretty good coach, and he knows his personnel better than anyone, so clearly he felt that was the best strategy -- and again, it worked pretty well.
Maybe a different strategy (having Riley handle and shoot less) would have worked better, but from this distance, I'm not convinced.
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colt13
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| Posted: 03/24/10 11:39 am ::: Team |
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Interesting discussion. In regards to Cunningham fouling out, Riley is the only player that got a shot after that.
This will be one of the most interesting teams in the Big 12, but probably will be unranked when the preseason polls come out next season. They lose Riley, Cunningham and Byford. And Clardy too.
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bridgehere
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| Posted: 03/24/10 1:07 pm ::: Re: Team |
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| colt13 wrote: |
Interesting discussion. In regards to Cunningham fouling out, Riley is the only player that got a shot after that.
This will be one of the most interesting teams in the Big 12, but probably will be unranked when the preseason polls come out next season. They lose Riley, Cunningham and Byford. And Clardy too. |
I agree that they will be unranked preseason, but they have the talent to be ranked later in the season. Let's see how Budke uses it. Young, Robinson, Garrison are all clearly talented players. I don't know the other players nor who he has coming in, but those three are good to begin with. I imagine he has some that haven't seen much time that are good and some coming in. I hope so. I like the players there and am a big OSU fan.
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bridgehere
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CRASH
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pilight
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| Posted: 03/24/10 3:10 pm ::: |
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| Budke isn't much of a coach. He took La Tech from a team that had made the E8 or better four straight years fron 1998-2001 and was a perennial contender and made them a regular early exit, not to mention the falling down on recruiting that took the Lady Techsters out of the national picture (maybe for good).
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giraffespots
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| Posted: 03/24/10 3:30 pm ::: |
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I agree with most of what was posted after my first post.
Riley was done NO favors by those surrounding her. What's interesting to me is that in 4 years, this discussion was held by NO ONE. Yet, this year, here we are. And this is the year that Riley has played the most unselfish of her entire OSU career. I was stunned in my seat when OSU came to UNM to play earlier this year. Literally, stunned.
So, maybe she IS getting it. Slowly, but surely. I also think she will be drafted, but as a project. She has too much natural talent for someone who has the space and time to take her on as a project. She does play Richardson's style. Unfortunately, I am not so sure he is the one to show her how to be a team player.
But, as for OSU, the fact remains that every year Riley was on the team, they had a late season meltdown. Last season, the chemistry/team issues for OSU were so staggering that it was pretty much the talk of Big 12 message boards. Each offseason, Budke has run off multiple players who didn't buy into the "Life of Riley" philosophy. Riley's fault? A little, but mostly it is Budke's fault.
Riley may have taken a swing a Erica in front of America, but I was in the stands just a few feet away when I saw her SHOVE, with both hands, her teammate, who had DARED to argue with her (all the way down the court) about a turnover. The turnover was Riley's fault, 100%, no question. Did America hear of her physical tussle with one of the OSU trainers? I saw her throw a tantrum where she pummeled Marlies Gipson in the back with her feet because Gipson had tied the ball up with her. There are lots of instances where Budke gave his famous "I didn't see anything" answer and where he let Riley run amok, no consequences. Its not just a few times either.
So, would OSU have gone farther without her? I would say yes. I think that if Riley had been taught to be a team player, the other OSU players would have been able to develop their games better. Garrison is a crazy 3 pt shooter but she is SOOO used to just standing there wide, wide, wide, open with absolutely no looks her way. Take away 1/3 of Riley's bad choice shots and give them to other players, percentage-wise, I think OSU would have come out far ahead.
I don't really like Riley the basketball player. Riley, the person, I am sure is probably very typical of star basketball players. I don't know her as a person, so I can't say I dislike her.
Someone I know is always insisting that if she were an OU Sooner, I would just LOVE her. But, I know that if she were a Sooner, she wouldn't have been allowed to run the team as she has at OSU. As a different type of player, I would LOVE to have her on my team; HOWEVER, as she is right now, I am SO glad she is NOT on my team.
As for Budke, he may be a competent x's and o's guy, but he has no clue how to coach a team.
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harlem_basketball
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| Posted: 03/24/10 3:34 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Budke isn't much of a coach. He took La Tech from a team that had made the E8 or better four straight years fron 1998-2001 and was a perennial contender and made them a regular early exit, not to mention the falling down on recruiting that took the Lady Techsters out of the national picture (maybe for good). |
I'm not so convinced that was all his fault nor am I convinced that we won't be hearing from the Techsters on a national scale again. Regarding his level of blame, he seemed to not realize that Techster fans and alumni were not ready, willing or able to handle the truth as he felt he was ordained to give it to them (and still feels, whenever given a platform to discuss Tech). He always seemed to have the excuses written on his palm just in case. Tech provided him with the stepping stone to the B12 that he was looking for so whatever happened after him and all that history and tradition mumbo jumbo was basically none of his concern. It didn't help that Chris Long came along and was Mr. Nice Guy who let the players run the program who of no malice helped lower the coffin and toss the dirt.
La Tech as a university refused to adjust to the changing landscape of women's basketball and went from hailing the program as the pride and joy of the athletic department to benign neglect from the gut punch that was Mulkey packing her shit - hell, until about a year ago. I don't think they'll be making regular appearances in the E8 again (don't think anyone not named UConn, Stanford or Tennessee will) but they can be a very powerful mid major with the attitude and behavior of a major (if that makes sense). They're moving in the right direction again but how they handle their next steps is what I think will dictate how far they get on their quest to regain national prominence.
All that said, I completely co-sign pilight. I don't think much of Budke as a coach at all. Sorry. I watched the Tech days and have watched the Ok State days and have yet to see an offense that doesn't consist of "Give X the ball and adapt to whatever she chooses to do with it." Every now and then, if we're lucky, there's a Y. |
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PRballer
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| Posted: 03/24/10 5:10 pm ::: |
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| pilight wrote: |
| Budke isn't much of a coach. He took La Tech from a team that had made the E8 or better four straight years fron 1998-2001 and was a perennial contender and made them a regular early exit, not to mention the falling down on recruiting that took the Lady Techsters out of the national picture (maybe for good). |
Isn't much of a coach? Isn't he the architect behind Trinity Valley Community College's JUCO dominance? Didn't he quickly turn around the Oklahoma State programs with some big recruits and key wins in a few short years?
Regarding La Tech, it was Chris Long and the move to the WAC that really hurt the program. Not Budke.
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CRASH
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Howee
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| Posted: 03/24/10 7:34 pm ::: |
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Giraffe makes some interesting points in that last post.
I've looong thought that Riley is one of those brilliantly talented players who is not..."typical"...on the personality level. I don't mean to be unkind, but I'm thinking now as a teacher. I can think of many pupils who are talented, even gifted, but they're ...well, not quite in synch with their peers, on a social and emotional level. Maybe it's just that her "filters" aren't as developed as most young women involved in competitive sports...ya know? In her mind, it's "okay" to throw tantrums, if not fists, when frustrated. (Think Prahalis here, too). Bottom line on this thinking is, none of us can PROVE anything, but some signs are there.
That said, it would make lots of sense as to how she was "handled". Maybe coach chose to take her GOOD skills along with her personality flaws, realizing her assets would take the team far...and relatively speaking, she DID take OSU far. I dunno. But IF there's any validity to this theory, Gawd help her in the WNBA. That AIN'T a sheltered workshop...especially with Tulsa's Coach! 
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ClayK
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| Posted: 03/25/10 2:37 pm ::: |
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Great points, Howee ...
Sometimes you have to take the bitter with the sweet, and maybe if you didn't let Riley run the show, she doesn't help you at all, and maybe hurts you.
When you recruit her, you know you're rolling the dice, and you're hoping she can make it all work within a team framework. When that doesn't happen, now you have to decide
1) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley doing everything?
2) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley unhappy but under control, and lesser players taking more shots?
Again, they did pretty well, and it's hard for me to see the other four kids taking Oklahoma State any farther -- and in fact, I don't see them taking OKSt. as far as Riley did.
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CRASH
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| Posted: 03/25/10 4:03 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Great points, Howee ...
Sometimes you have to take the bitter with the sweet, and maybe if you didn't let Riley run the show, she doesn't help you at all, and maybe hurts you.
When you recruit her, you know you're rolling the dice, and you're hoping she can make it all work within a team framework. When that doesn't happen, now you have to decide
1) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley doing everything?
2) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley unhappy but under control, and lesser players taking more shots?
Again, they did pretty well, and it's hard for me to see the other four kids taking Oklahoma State any farther -- and in fact, I don't see them taking OKSt. as far as Riley did. |
It WAS the OTHER kids that got themselves to the second round!
And..
It was Riley (and her 31 of 66 team shots) that DID NOT get them any further! 
at some point light will dawn on marbled heads and see that having a spoiled ball hog on your team doesn't help you.
and allowing said BH to run your team for you proves that unnamed coach... can't coach!
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giraffespots
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| Posted: 03/25/10 6:15 pm ::: |
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| ClayK wrote: |
Great points, Howee ...
Sometimes you have to take the bitter with the sweet, and maybe if you didn't let Riley run the show, she doesn't help you at all, and maybe hurts you.
When you recruit her, you know you're rolling the dice, and you're hoping she can make it all work within a team framework. When that doesn't happen, now you have to decide
1) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley doing everything?
2) Are we better/going to win more games with Riley unhappy but under control, and lesser players taking more shots?
Again, they did pretty well, and it's hard for me to see the other four kids taking Oklahoma State any farther -- and in fact, I don't see them taking OKSt. as far as Riley did. |
I think defining OSU's success/failure strictly by looking at Riley is a bit tunnel-visioned. We saw how far they got in the 4 years with Riley. Without Riley, I feel they would have gone the exact same distance. I don't think its ultimately about Riley. I think its about Budke.
My opinion is that OSU did not have great success during the Riley years is because of Budke. From the time he set foot on OSU campus, the "shelf life" of a role-playing OSU WBB player was VERY precarious. In each offseason, half the team was "let go" or graduated and he brought in a whole new bunch of players. If each of the years he has been a coach, over half of the team consisted of "new" players (either freshmen or transfers), that alone will keep any program as an above-average, good team, but not great.
I think that he would have had a great 4 years with Riley IF he had not torn the team up each year trying to find players who would put up with Riley as a "STAR" and all that that entails. He dismantled and rebuilt every year and enabled Riley to "run" the team. If he had required Riley play as a TEAM player, they would not have had all those late season meltdowns.
They could possibly look on Budke's tenure so far as "great teams" instead of "better than what we had before"
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ClayK
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| Posted: 03/26/10 4:57 pm ::: |
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I don't have strong feelings about Budke, and I don't care for the style of player Riley is, though she is obviously a very effective player.
Still, Oklahoma State was 88-46 in her four years, which is pretty good for anyone, and compared to the 29-83 record for the previous four seasons, I find it hard to really criticize Budke too much. After all, that's a 59-win improvement ... in the Big 12, no less.
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RavenDog
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| Posted: 03/26/10 6:04 pm ::: |
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Poor Andrea gets no respect!
She busted her ass every game for 4 years for a team that doesn't get the top 4-year recruits, has to rely on getting 2-year junior college transfers and plays in the Big 12's South Division who do get top recruits.
All she does is win as many games as possible - some at great odds. Many games she won practically singlehandedly while playing 40 minutes, having 10 opposing player's eyeballs watching her every move and everyone in the stands, on tv, computer and radio knowing she's most likely going take the shot.
Give the girl a break she did the best she could with what was given her. I would venture to say that not one person on this board has or had a comparable game to hers or could come close to doing what she did - especially with pressure of carrying her team every game.
With 5 brothers and 4 sisters, she's lucky she got to eat everyday yet play basketball.
I'm not in any way pushing her for the WNBA but I am congratulating her for a fantastic and most improbable career at Oklahoma State.
Last edited by RavenDog on 03/26/10 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CRASH
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| Posted: 03/26/10 6:28 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
Poor Angela gets no respect!
She busted her ass every game for 4 years for a team that doesn't get the top 4-year recruits, has to rely on getting 2-year junior college transfers and plays in the Big 12's South Division who do get top recruits.
All she does is win as many games as possible - some at great odds. Many games she won practically singlehandedly while playing 40 minutes, having 10 opposing player's eyeballs watching her every move and everyone in the stands, on tv, computer and radio knowing she's most likely going take the shot.
Give the girl a break she did the best she could with what was given her. I would venture to say that not one person on this board has or had a comparable game to hers or could come close to doing what she did - especially with pressure of carrying her team every game.
I'm not in any way pushing her for the WNBA but I am congratulating her for a fantastic and most improbable career at Oklahoma State. |
True that I NEVER had her scoring ability.
Nor did I have the incessant need to always have the ball in MY hands.
But....
I WAS a true point guard who understood the 1 thing that makes a good point guard - If someone is closer to the basket than you are...
THROW THEM THE BALL!
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Howee
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RavenDog
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| Posted: 03/26/10 7:34 pm ::: |
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| CRASH wrote: |
| RavenDog wrote: |
Poor Angela gets no respect!
She busted her ass every game for 4 years for a team that doesn't get the top 4-year recruits, has to rely on getting 2-year junior college transfers and plays in the Big 12's South Division who do get top recruits.
All she does is win as many games as possible - some at great odds. Many games she won practically singlehandedly while playing 40 minutes, having 10 opposing player's eyeballs watching her every move and everyone in the stands, on tv, computer and radio knowing she's most likely going take the shot.
Give the girl a break she did the best she could with what was given her. I would venture to say that not one person on this board has or had a comparable game to hers or could come close to doing what she did - especially with pressure of carrying her team every game.
I'm not in any way pushing her for the WNBA but I am congratulating her for a fantastic and most improbable career at Oklahoma State. |
True that I NEVER had her scoring ability.
Nor did I have the incessant need to always have the ball in MY hands.
But....
I WAS a true point guard who understood the 1 thing that makes a good point guard - If someone is closer to the basket than you are...
THROW THEM THE BALL! |
In general and in theory passing the ball to an open teammate closest teammate is normally the proper procedure. You might want to talk to Coach Budke about it.
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CRASH
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| Posted: 03/26/10 7:38 pm ::: |
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| RavenDog wrote: |
| CRASH wrote: |
| RavenDog wrote: |
Poor Angela gets no respect!
She busted her ass every game for 4 years for a team that doesn't get the top 4-year recruits, has to rely on getting 2-year junior college transfers and plays in the Big 12's South Division who do get top recruits.
All she does is win as many games as possible - some at great odds. Many games she won practically singlehandedly while playing 40 minutes, having 10 opposing player's eyeballs watching her every move and everyone in the stands, on tv, computer and radio knowing she's most likely going take the shot.
Give the girl a break she did the best she could with what was given her. I would venture to say that not one person on this board has or had a comparable game to hers or could come close to doing what she did - especially with pressure of carrying her team every game.
I'm not in any way pushing her for the WNBA but I am congratulating her for a fantastic and most improbable career at Oklahoma State. |
True that I NEVER had her scoring ability.
Nor did I have the incessant need to always have the ball in MY hands.
But....
I WAS a true point guard who understood the 1 thing that makes a good point guard - If someone is closer to the basket than you are...
THROW THEM THE BALL! |
In general and in theory passing the ball to an open teammate closest teammate is normally the proper procedure. You might want to talk to Coach Budke about it. |
ROTFLMAO
from his past attemps I can assure you that would do no good.
He's a "dog and pony show" kind of guy.
And since he got Riley, he hasn't even woried about the pony!
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ClayK
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| Posted: 03/26/10 10:03 pm ::: |
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And not to beat a dead pony, but he averaged 22 wins a season in the Big 12 with that strategy ...
How many other teams out there would be very, very happy with 88 wins in a four-year span?
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giraffespots
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| Posted: 03/27/10 2:04 am ::: |
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I guess if one is satisfied with being better than your previous teams losing records; having 20 win seasons with no regular season or tournament championships; and no ncaa tourneys past sweet 16; then, yeah, Budke is a good coach.
That is why I said OSU had good teams during Riley's tenure, but not great teams. Even though, WITH Riley they had the potential to be great had Budke not ruined iy with his philosophy of running off half the team every year trying to finagle a great team.
I am not really ragging on Riley so much as Budke. I just think their potential was not met, by far.
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