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2Old4Title9
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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 Posted: 03/25/08 8:32 pm ::: |
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| Some days are like that. But for the combination of a few variables, the game could have had a different outcome. But there's next year...
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Crown Him the Lord of years,
The Potentate of time
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Ineffably sublime
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/25/08 8:54 pm ::: |
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| njjosh wrote: |
| And it's not "unacceptable" as much as it is what separates her from not just Pat and Geno, but Muffet McGraw, Tara VanDerVeer, Kim Mulkey-Robertson and others who have built programs into actual champions. Until she does likewise, Gail isn't at that level. Same with Andy Landers, Vivian Stringer, Debbie Ryan and the others who have built winning programs over a number of years but not championship ones. |
And yet in the past ten years, Gail has had more consistent success than Muffet, Tara, Mulkey, etc. Stanford hasn't been to a Final Four since 1997. Notre Dame hasn't sniffed the Final Four or even national title contender status since 2001. Baylor hasn't been back to the Final Four and may not have been back to the Elite Eight, IIRC.
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eye510
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
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| Posted: 03/25/08 9:13 pm ::: |
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very interesting comments...
of course pat and geno...are at the top--LOTS of championships--they are very unique.....VERY...
...and then there are all the rest--...those who have won 1 national championship--but cant do it again..and those who have been to many final 4's--but cant seem to get the big one.....Stop---- with the bashing of goestenkors---she is a VERY_VERY good coach,,great in fact.. she wins without verbally abusing her players...unique..and respected...she will get her ring at TEXAS..
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hoopfan24
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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| Posted: 03/25/08 9:42 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| And it's not "unacceptable" as much as it is what separates her from not just Pat and Geno, but Muffet McGraw, Tara VanDerVeer, Kim Mulkey-Robertson and others who have built programs into actual champions. Until she does likewise, Gail isn't at that level. Same with Andy Landers, Vivian Stringer, Debbie Ryan and the others who have built winning programs over a number of years but not championship ones. |
And yet in the past ten years, Gail has had more consistent success than Muffet, Tara, Mulkey, etc. Stanford hasn't been to a Final Four since 1997. Notre Dame hasn't sniffed the Final Four or even national title contender status since 2001. Baylor hasn't been back to the Final Four and may not have been back to the Elite Eight, IIRC. |
I've always liked Gail and think she did a great job, so why did she leave Cam? Of course, we heard the rumors about lack of support from Duke's AD, but don't know for sure. What was the deal?
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CalwbbFan
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 2:32 am ::: |
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| hoopfan24 wrote: |
| I've always liked Gail and think she did a great job, so why did she leave Cam? Of course, we heard the rumors about lack of support from Duke's AD, but don't know for sure. What was the deal? |
That was part of it.
Had Alleva given her a contract extension after 2006, this wouldn't have been an issue.
Alleva cannot stand to be questioned, yet makes terrible hires. Only when others step in does he get things right. He had two disastrous hires in football and one in baseball.
Alleva honestly thought that women's basketball didn't deserve the major money that men's basketball gets...or anything close to it. Texas is paying Gail well over $800,000. Duke matched, but WAY too late (after Alleva publicly insulted Gail in interviews on multiple occasions). McCallie is getting $500,000...noticeably less than Gail. As long as the women's program wins and goes to the NCAA Tournament, it doesn't matter to him. The fact that Duke is not talked about as a national title contender as it has been over the past several years is of no consequence.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/26/08 10:11 am ::: |
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| hoopfan24 wrote: |
| can't really blame Gail for Toliver hitting that 3 in the Final Four. Just bad luck for them, I was sitting in the MD section, but pulling for Duke. |
the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of bales. she allowed herself to fall for toliver's drive fake, despite the fact the terps needed a 3.
i've watched it a million times. there is no reason for bales to retreat from the arc, but she does, and thus gives toliver the space needed to hoist that shot.
great move by toliver; dumb one by bales.
as for GG- she can recruit, and that's more than half the battle. she's had too many bad losses to be considered great, imo.
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beknighted
Joined: 11 Nov 2004
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Location: Lost in D.C.
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| Posted: 03/26/08 10:56 am ::: |
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| njjosh wrote: |
| Changing the topic slightly, I've seen what McKeown did last night and what he's done for years at GW and wonder what he could do in a major conference with major conference players and facilities. |
It's an interesting question, but he seems to have no interest in leaving. He's awfully good, and seems to get the most out of his teams nearly every year.
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HomerCecil
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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| Posted: 03/26/08 11:14 am ::: |
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I will say that the GW game was the first time I've seen a Joanne Boyle-coached Cal team play on television.
I think what she's done with the program is tremendous, and she's definitely headed in the right direction.
With that said, I thought her team looked extremely, extremely nervous in the final few minutes. I didn't really think GW played particularly well at the end of the game, but that Cal gave it to them. The refs missed an obvious over-and-back call against Cal in the final few minutes. I also thought that the final sequence could have been managed better by Boyle. She obviously was shocked after the travel was called, but just stood in shock. She didn't give any motion to her players to get set on defense (or call the timeout she'd been trying to call, for that matter). I thought her handling of the end of the game — not just the final 10 seconds, but more like the final five minutes — was not very impressive.
With that said, I think she'll get better and she's certainly a great coach that Cal should be pleased to have. But I was not impressed at all with her game management skills.
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CalwbbFan
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2Old4Title9
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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| Posted: 03/26/08 12:13 pm ::: |
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| I'm sure it could have been handled better, and probably will be in the future. Crisis management is a highly specialized skill and if JB is as smart as I think she is, she will use this to develop it on the court. Anyone who can recover from a brain hemorrhage can regroup after losing a basketball game, surely.
_________________
Crown Him the Lord of years,
The Potentate of time
Creator of the rolling spheres,
Ineffably sublime
John 1:1-5
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kage
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 03/26/08 12:33 pm ::: |
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| Well... she still is a fairly young coach, experience wise, I think. She'll learn from this just as the Cal wbb team will. |
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:10 pm ::: |
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| cthskzfn wrote: |
| as for GG- she can recruit, and that's more than half the battle. she's had too many bad losses to be considered great, imo. |
Good to see you posting again, CTH!
Outside of Geno and Pat, Gail has amassed the best winning percentage amongst active coaches in the NCAA Tournament. Over the past nine years befoe this year, Duke has had 7 straight 30 win seasons, 7 Elite Eight appearances, and 4 Final Four berths. Of the coaches (besides Geno and Pat) who won titles during this time, such as McGraw and Mulkey, no one else has maintained the consistent excellence during that time frame.
Gail doesn't have a title. I would argue that 2004 was the biggest failure, as the team was clearly talented, had defeated UConn in Hartford, and had a lot of momentum coming into the NCAAs. 2006 is up there as well...not so much for Toliver, but for coaching not to lose instead of coaching to win.
But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years?
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2Old4Title9
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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Location: Pinal County AZ
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:18 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years? |
I think I'd take sustained, consistent excellence over winning a national title and not being a contender in other years.
_________________
Crown Him the Lord of years,
The Potentate of time
Creator of the rolling spheres,
Ineffably sublime
John 1:1-5
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hoopfan24
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 896
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:25 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| hoopfan24 wrote: |
| I've always liked Gail and think she did a great job, so why did she leave Cam? Of course, we heard the rumors about lack of support from Duke's AD, but don't know for sure. What was the deal? |
That was part of it.
Had Alleva given her a contract extension after 2006, this wouldn't have been an issue.
Alleva cannot stand to be questioned, yet makes terrible hires. Only when others step in does he get things right. He had two disastrous hires in football and one in baseball.
Alleva honestly thought that women's basketball didn't deserve the major money that men's basketball gets...or anything close to it. Texas is paying Gail well over $800,000. Duke matched, but WAY too late (after Alleva publicly insulted Gail in interviews on multiple occasions). McCallie is getting $500,000...noticeably less than Gail. As long as the women's program wins and goes to the NCAA Tournament, it doesn't matter to him. The fact that Duke is not talked about as a national title contender as it has been over the past several years is of no consequence. |
thanks for explanation Cam.
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Grumps
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:26 pm ::: |
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| 2Old4Title9 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years? |
I think I'd take sustained, consistent excellence over winning a national title and not being a contender in other years. |
It's a lot like Dan Marino, HOF quarterback that had an excellent career, but he never won the big one...A lot of people that is the only thing they see...
Grumps
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readyAIMfire53
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
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Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:30 pm ::: Re: JoAnne Boyle |
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| ucbart wrote: |
| I know the Duke fans don't like Coach P., and it may turn out to be rightly so, but I have to say this. If you think Boyle would have been an improvement, I don't think so. I don't see anything in any Cal game I've seen this season that proves she is suited for the Duke job, IMO. Her teams can't score, they are very out of shape and look very lethargic out there to me. You all know Joanne more than I do, so am I onto something here or am I completely wrong? |
Bart, I'd would gladly take Joanne boyle's coaching over Joanne McCallie's any day of the week and twice on Tuesday. As CamCrz has pointed out, Boyle was severely hampered by lack of depth. Throw in the asthma problems to 1 out of the 2 post players able to play. I'm thinking Boyle's head was pretty clogged up with wondering if Hampton should even be on the floor.
Give Boyle a couple of years to develop trust in a returning Asst Coach and time to recruit a full roster. She'll be fine on the floor. and ALL reports are she's GREAT in all aspects off the floor. Players, adminstration, parents are all THRILLED to have her.
I don't need a Sweet Sixteen invitation to prove that Boyle would have been a better fit for Duke than McCallie is. On the court managing the team, X's and O's, Boyle is at least at McCallie's level. Recruiting, she's light years ahead of McCallie. Off court team management is where Boyle clearly shines and McCallie is horrible. Some Duke players have been trying to get an appointment to talk to the coach since February and have had no luck. I kid you not. And without an appointment, there is NO talking to the coach.
Please check out all publications quoting Duke players this season. You will not find one anywhere in which a Duke player states they like the coach or have learned to trust her through the year. The late season success has come when the players have taken over the running of the team. It's more like the upper class players figure they've got nothing left to lose, so most post season games, they are calling the plays...and winning.
Very nice of you to provide a forum regarding the Duke coaching situation. I owe you one...
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kage
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
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| Posted: 03/26/08 1:38 pm ::: Re: JoAnne Boyle |
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| readyAIMfire53 wrote: |
| Some Duke players have been trying to get an appointment to talk to the coach since February and have had no luck. I kid you not. And without an appointment, there is NO talking to the coach. |
Um, wow. I hadn't realized it was quite that bad. Even if she is busy, that's either pretty bad time management/availability or deliberate. Either way, not very good probably. You know this for sure? |
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njjosh
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 4:45 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| cthskzfn wrote: |
| as for GG- she can recruit, and that's more than half the battle. she's had too many bad losses to be considered great, imo. |
Good to see you posting again, CTH!
Outside of Geno and Pat, Gail has amassed the best winning percentage amongst active coaches in the NCAA Tournament. Over the past nine years befoe this year, Duke has had 7 straight 30 win seasons, 7 Elite Eight appearances, and 4 Final Four berths. Of the coaches (besides Geno and Pat) who won titles during this time, such as McGraw and Mulkey, no one else has maintained the consistent excellence during that time frame.
Gail doesn't have a title. I would argue that 2004 was the biggest failure, as the team was clearly talented, had defeated UConn in Hartford, and had a lot of momentum coming into the NCAAs. 2006 is up there as well...not so much for Toliver, but for coaching not to lose instead of coaching to win.
But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years? |
What about 2007? 31-1, #1 overall seed, loses in the Sweet 16 to a Rutgers team they beat by 40 points at Rutgers in the regular season.
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njjosh
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 5:02 pm ::: |
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| 2Old4Title9 wrote: |
| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years? |
I think I'd take sustained, consistent excellence over winning a national title and not being a contender in other years. |
I'll admit you have a fair argument - it's the same one Dean Smith defended himself with when he came under attack the first 15-20 years of his career, when he kept getting North Carolina to near the mountaintop but never actually there.
On the flip side, though, you have Jim Valvano. His 1983 NC State team got on a roll in the postseason and won a national championship when the Phi Slamma Jamma Houston Cougars choked in the final minutes of the title game. He never came close to winning a national title again, and coached his final game before his 45th birthday (this all before cancer tragically took his life). But because of that championship, he became an icon in the sport.
Contrast this with Gene Keady, who at the same time was building a perennially strong program at Purdue. He always won plenty, but he never won the big one or even reached the Final Four. Consequently, for all of his wins, he's never been an icon the same way his coaching peers like Dean Smith and Coack K, who did win it all, were.
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2Old4Title9
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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| Posted: 03/26/08 5:34 pm ::: |
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Well...we have jumped around a lot here and I thought we were talking about Joanne Boyle.
OK - Joanne just finished her third season as head coach at Cal after being head coach at Richmond for 3 seasons. So she's got six seasons in as a head coach, following 9 years as an assistant at Duke. Just taking a quick look at some stats, it would appear that she is on a gradual upward direction. Each season, she seems to get just a little bit farther. She is only 44 years old, and I don't think she's reached her peak. We're also mixing some men's bball coaches in here, and you really can't compare the two at this point in time. What we do know is that she has taken the Cal women's program and turned it around, to the delight of everyone who cares about it.
_________________
Crown Him the Lord of years,
The Potentate of time
Creator of the rolling spheres,
Ineffably sublime
John 1:1-5
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CamrnCrz1974
Joined: 18 Nov 2004
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| Posted: 03/26/08 5:49 pm ::: |
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| njjosh wrote: |
| What about 2007? 31-1, #1 overall seed, loses in the Sweet 16 to a Rutgers team they beat by 40 points at Rutgers in the regular season. |
The big distraction there was Gail being courted by Texas. That one is a different situation than the others.
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hoopfan24
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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| Posted: 03/26/08 7:42 pm ::: |
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| CamrnCrz1974 wrote: |
| njjosh wrote: |
| What about 2007? 31-1, #1 overall seed, loses in the Sweet 16 to a Rutgers team they beat by 40 points at Rutgers in the regular season. |
The big distraction there was Gail being courted by Texas. That one is a different situation than the others. |
yea, I thought they really affected Gail and team. Too bad because they were very talented, but gotta be ready mentally to go far in the tourney.
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cthskzfn
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
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Location: In a world where a PSYCHOpath like Trump isn't potus.
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| Posted: 03/26/08 8:22 pm ::: |
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But where do you balance the sustained, consistent excellence at the highest of levels with winning a national title and not being a contender in other years?
well, i'd rather be a fan of a GG-coached team than say, an andy landers-coached team. but i'd prefer to be a baylor fan over either.
there aren't too many teams in WCB (any at all?) that win a NC and then don't contend. purdue, maybe?
anyway, i can't call a coach who has never won the NC "great". sorry.
imo, the marino analogy doesn't work because he never played on the most talented team and didn't have several bad losses.
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hoopfan24
Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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| Posted: 03/26/08 8:33 pm ::: |
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| Quote: |
| well, i'd rather be a fan of a GG-coached team than say, an andy landers-coached team. but i'd prefer to be a baylor fan over either |
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there aren't too many teams in WCB (any at all?) that win a NC and then don't contend. purdue, maybe?
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agree with GG over Andy
would add ND to the second pt
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